Liverpool FC Forum

[Fo Dne]

I thought Lucas was excellent yesterday. Won the ball back, kept it simple and was always willing to join in the attack.

Xabi on the other hand was poor again.

You're jokin aren't ya? Some of passing yesterday was sensational.

[Fo Dne]

Good thread this and here's my ten penneth worth (I don't do two penneths it doesn't suit me).

Firstly, Alonso. There's no question in my mind that he's some way short of being the player he was in his first season, and as has been debated many times that is probably due as much to the opposition more effectively nullifying his talents than anything else. That said I agree with Bob that he does come in for some unfair criticism on here, where his performances even when more than adequate are criticised and I have a bit of a theory why. I think it might well be the "Lando" factor which is taking effect.

By the "Lando" factor, I mean no disrespect to our currently absent drum beater in chief. What I mean though is that when the "is Alonso's form slightly on the dip" question first reared its ugly head around two years ago, so vehement was the defence of Xabi by his supporters club that anybody who dared to criticise was at best guilty of being blind to the nuances of professional football (being unable to see the famous "unseen" work) and at worst, a "clueless gimp". More recently, those who alluded to a slight preference perhaps for Masherano were ridiculed for their knee-jerkery, laughed at for their willingness to "forget about Juventus away". Human nature being what it is I think there is sometimes a tendency when proven right to kind of rub it in a bit (not in any sense because Xabi isn't an excellent player which he is, but equally he clearly and most definately isn't the most important player at the club as some claimed until they were blue in the face at the time). For my part I've tried not to get too involved in either side on the Masherano/Alonso debate, and indeed was critical of the Argenitinian when he first got into the team this season. As of now though it sems to me that anybody who doesn't accept that Masherano is the better player of the two is allowing loyalty to cloud their judgement.

That said though, the topic is supposedly about Lucas and Alonso only got brought into it as people naturally ask the quyestion whether or not we should sell Alonso and further, whether Lucas is ready to step in/up. Now just as Masherano is clearly currently superior to Alonso (IMHO of course before somebody goes off on one), Alonso is currently a much better player than Lucas. The question in hand of course is whether Lucas is going to surpass Xabi anytime soon. My own feeling is it depends on a couple of factors.

Firstly if Alonso can truly get somewhere near his very best form, then Lucas is going to have a mountain to climb to get past him. In reverse, obviously if Alonso continues in his present mode where he has very little effect on the outcome of games, then Lucas has more opportunites. As far as the Brazillian is concerned, he is a player who I like very much. He never fails during the course of a match to do something, somewhere during that match which smacks of quality. The glimpse can be annoyingly fleeting at times, but like Luis Garcia continually getting open in the box it's not coincidence that he can do it, the ability is there I'm absolutely certain to be a top player. Whether or not he can do it at Liverpool and in the Premiership though remains to be seen. HJe is too lightwieght at times, too profligate in posesion, and his telling contributions this season can be counted on the fingers of one hand. I can forgive that because he's shown something, but like Babel next season is a big season for him.

Good players may take time to settle but you see glimpses of quality, however infrequent. I'm more confident of Lucas than I am of Babel, but at least the Dutchman is physically of the right stuff. With his pace and athleticism, he has it in him with almost no development to score some goals in the Premiership. He is already probably at a level where he could get into the Aston Villa or Middlesboro teams as an out and out striker and do fairly well. Lucas however we are having to be more patient with, to carry on occasions. If we are currently seeing the best he has to offer, we should get rid as he won't make it. My feeling is though that there is moe under the surface, a player waiting to get out. I must admit I thought when I first saw him what we would be seeing more from him by now than we are, but I'd give him another season.

As for alonso, if we are going to continue with 4-5-1 then we should keep him. Even if we are going to go 4-4-2 we should keep him as first change central midfielder. On that note my hope is that some point before his career ends, one of Steven Gerrards managers might just remember that he used to be a brilliant box to box midfielder and ask him to perform the role again. The feeling persists that him and Masherano in a central two is probably as near as we are going to get to a perfect midfield almost regardles of who we sign. That is of course if the manager can't persuade the captain to have another season in his very best position as a right midfielder again 

Mascherano and Gerrard in a two isn't a great option at all. Neither are tacitcally superb and neither of them know how to dicate a game use intelligence. Also technically its not good enough in terms of  use  of the  ball, touch and weight of passes. We conceed far to much possession from those two to be a CONSISTENTLY effective pairing.

[woof woof !]

I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, because as people know, I'm not one who follows the crowd.

Is that because the crowd tend to run faster than you ?   

I think Alonso was probably found out after his first season with us and after those first season displays any opposing managers instruction must surely be "for christs sake close him down, give him space and he could destroy us"

Maybe I'm looking for excuses for Alonso , I'm sure the class is still there , it's just that the fella's not being given time and space to fully exploit it. He's closed down very early and when he does get a bit of space He's still caught dwelling on the ball more than he should and really has to move his game up a gear if he wants to recapture the impact he first made with us. Still a top midfielder if not quite a great one but years ahead of Lucas imo.

[Toffeehater]

Against Aresenal he ran more than any other player on the pitch bar Fabregas, including our players, yet no one noticed that. Im in 2 minds really Bob. Kuyt works hard yet he should stay, Alonso work even harder , and is better in almost every department, but he should go. People confuse me. Most of the time I confuse myself admittedly, I have 2 opnions for matters, and alot of the time I dont no what one to go with:D

He worked harder in 1 game thne kuyt , and also , better in every department? No sorry , he's better at passing but these days , even that has been below par this few seasons .

You crack me up, mate.  You're always well annoyed when people criticize Kuyt yet you have a pop at Alonso every single game.  What's the difference?

The difference is that kuyt gets  the stick that he does not deserve , ffs the has gotten us basically into the semi finals , his running , tracking back , not to forget 2 important goals one in the inter game and the priceless away goal . Kuyt works hard , gets the odd goal now and then still gets criticised , xabi alonso , does nothing , gets away scott free . the moment we lose , kuyt's the scapegoat or when we put in a bad performance , when was the last time alonso put in a man of the match performance? Kuyt was possibly the man of the match in both the arsenal champions league games

Bad Bob , ask urself what has xabi done this season since reutrning frm injury? he's has been poor cept for 1 good corner against bolton where he found aurelio , his passing has been affected , he has been run over by arterta and fabregas , whom he should be controlling , sadly masch has had to work harder to cover up for xabi's mistakes . The difference is that kuyt may lose the ball but he runs back and wins it back at times and out of 5 occasions he wins them back on at least 3 . Your bias is showing mate , i know u are a big alonso fan and  i have said that kuyt is not lfc standard  , but i support him as he has done well ever since being moved to a winger ,  if he can get 10 to 12 goals in total a season and get decent assit rate , i'd say he has done his job as a winger . I'm not sure how many assist he has in total but in the premier league he has 7 assist and 3 goals i think and he has 10 goals in total this season . Don't get me wrong kuyt is no ronaldinho , or ronaldo but his determination and character has to be admired , he gives his all in every game he plays .

[Toffeehater]

I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, because as people know, I'm not one who follows the crowd.

Is that because the crowd tend to run faster than you ?   

I think Alonso was probably found out after his first season with us and after those first season displays any opposing managers instruction must surely be "for christs sake close him down, give him space and he could destroy us"

Maybe I'm looking for excuses for Alonso , I'm sure the class is still there , it's just that the fella's not being given time and space to fully exploit it. He's closed down very early and when he does get a bit of space He's still caught dwelling on the ball more than he should and really has to move his game up a gear if he wants to recapture the impact he first made with us. Still a top midfielder if not quite a great one but years ahead of Lucas imo.

Yes so shouldn't he work harder on his passing , change his gameplan ?? Look and pass quicker , the english premier league is not a league where u will get time to do everything you want .

[Bad Bob]

:D You crack me up, mate.  You're always well annoyed when people criticize Kuyt yet you have a pop at Alonso every single game.  What's the difference?

The difference is that kuyt does not get the stick that he deserves , ffs the has gotten us basically into the semi finals , his running , tracking back , not to forget 2 important goals one in the inter game and the priceless away goal . Kuyt works hard , gets the odd goal now and then still gets criticised , xabi alonso , does nothing , gets away scott free . the moment we lose , kuyt's the scapegoat or when we put in a bad performance , when was the last time alonso put in a man of the match performance? Kuyt was possibly the man of the match in both the arsenal champions league games

Bad Bob , ask urself what has xabi done this season since reutrning frm injury? he's has been poor cept for 1 good corner against bolton where he found aurelio , his passing has been affected , he has been run over by arterta and fabregas , whom he should be controlling , sadly masch has had to work harder to cover up for xabi's mistakes . The difference is that kuyt may lose the ball but he runs back and wins it back at times and out of 5 occasions he wins them back on at least 3 . Your bias is showing mate , i know u are a big alonso fan and  i have said that kuyt is not lfc standard  , but i support him as he has done well ever since being moved to a winger ,  if he can get 10 to 12 goals in total a season and get decent assit rate , i'd say he has done his job as a winger . I'm not sure how many assist he has in total but in the premier league he has 7 assist and 3 goals i think and he has 10 goals in total this season . Don't get me wrong kuyt is no ronaldinho , or ronaldo but his determination and character has to be admired , he gives his all in every game he plays .

Perhaps my bias is showing but, from where I sit, Alonso has been nowhere near as poor as you make out.  Nowhere near.  You talk about Arteta and Fabregas as if they bossed us but, really, what did Arteta do in the Derby (answer: nothing) and did Fabregas kill us? No he didn't.  Neither did Hleb for that matter.  I watched the Arsenal-Man U game yesterday and Hleb was Arsenal's best player by a mile.  He was a bundle of energy and a real handful.  Was he that effervescent against us?  No he was not.  What does that tell you?  Well it tells me that our central midfield pairing--and that includes Alonso--did their jobs.  I'm not saying Alonso has been a midfield collossus or anything daft like that--just that he hasn't been as poor as you (and others) make out and that he's no more deserving of knee-jerk criticism (which is what yours has been, IMO) than Kuyt is.

[maypaxvobiscum]

Against Aresenal he ran more than any other player on the pitch bar Fabregas, including our players, yet no one noticed that. Im in 2 minds really Bob. Kuyt works hard yet he should stay, Alonso work even harder , and is better in almost every department, but he should go. People confuse me. Most of the time I confuse myself admittedly, I have 2 opnions for matters, and alot of the time I dont no what one to go with:D

He worked harder in 1 game thne kuyt , and also , better in every department? No sorry , he's better at passing but these days , even that has been below par this few seasons .

You crack me up, mate.  You're always well annoyed when people criticize Kuyt yet you have a pop at Alonso every single game.  What's the difference?

The difference is that kuyt gets  the stick that he does not deserve , ffs the has gotten us basically into the semi finals , his running , tracking back , not to forget 2 important goals one in the inter game and the priceless away goal . Kuyt works hard , gets the odd goal now and then still gets criticised , xabi alonso , does nothing , gets away scott free . the moment we lose , kuyt's the scapegoat or when we put in a bad performance , when was the last time alonso put in a man of the match performance? Kuyt was possibly the man of the match in both the arsenal champions league games

Bad Bob , ask urself what has xabi done this season since reutrning frm injury? he's has been poor cept for 1 good corner against bolton where he found aurelio , his passing has been affected , he has been run over by arterta and fabregas , whom he should be controlling , sadly masch has had to work harder to cover up for xabi's mistakes . The difference is that kuyt may lose the ball but he runs back and wins it back at times and out of 5 occasions he wins them back on at least 3 . Your bias is showing mate , i know u are a big alonso fan and  i have said that kuyt is not lfc standard  , but i support him as he has done well ever since being moved to a winger ,  if he can get 10 to 12 goals in total a season and get decent assit rate , i'd say he has done his job as a winger . I'm not sure how many assist he has in total but in the premier league he has 7 assist and 3 goals i think and he has 10 goals in total this season . Don't get me wrong kuyt is no ronaldinho , or ronaldo but his determination and character has to be admired , he gives his all in every game he plays .

im not a kuyt fan at all either but i agree that credit shuld be given to his displays. only prob i see in him is that he doesnt score more then he should or we wish he would but theres no denying he, like mash and gerrard, do loads of work on the field in tracking back and running.

as for lucas or alonso, i know xabi is quality and his error in the blackburn match almost gave a goal away. but as for lucas i have no clue what sort of midfielder he is. he seems like he has skill and abit of flair. so maybe he is being wasted being played so far back?

[Bad Bob]

I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, because as people know, I'm not one who follows the crowd.

Is that because the crowd tend to run faster than you ?   

I think Alonso was probably found out after his first season with us and after those first season displays any opposing managers instruction must surely be "for christs sake close him down, give him space and he could destroy us"

Maybe I'm looking for excuses for Alonso , I'm sure the class is still there , it's just that the fella's not being given time and space to fully exploit it. He's closed down very early and when he does get a bit of space He's still caught dwelling on the ball more than he should and really has to move his game up a gear if he wants to recapture the impact he first made with us. Still a top midfielder if not quite a great one but years ahead of Lucas imo.

Yes so shouldn't he work harder on his passing , change his gameplan ?? Look and pass quicker , the english premier league is not a league where u will get time to do everything you want .

FFS, this is getting annoying now.  So, yes, Alonso often gets closed down quickly, we all agree.  Smart tactics on the oppo's part, that.  But, what happens in those cases?  Does he just hoof it up the pitch or send wild, arrant passes every which way.  No he  does not.  He usually plays the simple ball back to a defender and then repositions himself to receive the return ball in more space.  He then, more often than not, turns and looks upfield and, more often than not, feeds a ball into Gerrard's feet "between the lines" or puts a diagonal ball out to either Babel or Kuyt, some of which they control, others of which they don't.  Some people make out like Xabi gets caught in possession a dozen times a match and is just this lead-footed passenger in midfield.  I tell you, watch the matches again and see how many times he keeps possession and passes it to a red shirt.  Simple but effective.

[gato_busta]

For his first season I think Lucas has done really well. When he came little was known about him, I remember mentioning he was considered the brazilian Gerrard back in Gremio. He is rather versatile yet due to his height (abouth the same size as Masch yet not as physically built) his favored position IMO is higher on the pitch. In our current formation Lucas would be good cover for Gerrard yet this season he has come in as a holding midfielder due to Alonso's injury and the sale of Sissoko.

I do believe he is simmilar to Gerrard, only much... shorter. I still remember the first derby of the year when he came in for Gerrard and earned that penalty for us (darn Neville should have let him score). It's a good thing we brought him in at a young age (he is still only 21) so he can get used to physical nature of the league. I was really expecting him to play for the reserves this season yet he has done just fine in the first team and has really earned a place on the bench.

Going back to Alonso, when he first arrived at the team there was a lot of discussion that he did not play well alongside Gerrard. Whenever Gerrard was out of the team, Alonso was usualy the best Liverpool player on the pitch. When our captain almost left to Chelsea, I remember many saying that he should leave as when he is not in the team Alonso did great. I do agree that in a 4-4-2 formation, Gerrard is better paired with Mascherano in the middle yet in our current formation we have been doing better since Alonso has been back IMO.

With that said, I don't think Alonso should leave as it would leave our midfield a little vulnerable. We finally got cover for the space Hamann left (Mascherano) and if we were to loose Alonso, who knows how long it will take to find someone to replace him.

[woof woof !]

I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, because as people know, I'm not one who follows the crowd.

Is that because the crowd tend to run faster than you ?   

I think Alonso was probably found out after his first season with us and after those first season displays any opposing managers instruction must surely be "for christs sake close him down, give him space and he could destroy us"

Maybe I'm looking for excuses for Alonso , I'm sure the class is still there , it's just that the fella's not being given time and space to fully exploit it. He's closed down very early and when he does get a bit of space He's still caught dwelling on the ball more than he should and really has to move his game up a gear if he wants to recapture the impact he first made with us. Still a top midfielder if not quite a great one but years ahead of Lucas imo.

Yes so shouldn't he work harder on his passing , change his gameplan ?? Look and pass quicker , the english premier league is not a league where u will get time to do everything you want .

I thought thats what I was saying with

He's still caught dwelling on the ball more than he should and really has to move his game up a gear if he wants to recapture the impact he first made with us.

[Toffeehater]

:D You crack me up, mate.  You're always well annoyed when people criticize Kuyt yet you have a pop at Alonso every single game.  What's the difference?

The difference is that kuyt does not get the stick that he deserves , ffs the has gotten us basically into the semi finals , his running , tracking back , not to forget 2 important goals one in the inter game and the priceless away goal . Kuyt works hard , gets the odd goal now and then still gets criticised , xabi alonso , does nothing , gets away scott free . the moment we lose , kuyt's the scapegoat or when we put in a bad performance , when was the last time alonso put in a man of the match performance? Kuyt was possibly the man of the match in both the arsenal champions league games

Bad Bob , ask urself what has xabi done this season since reutrning frm injury? he's has been poor cept for 1 good corner against bolton where he found aurelio , his passing has been affected , he has been run over by arterta and fabregas , whom he should be controlling , sadly masch has had to work harder to cover up for xabi's mistakes . The difference is that kuyt may lose the ball but he runs back and wins it back at times and out of 5 occasions he wins them back on at least 3 . Your bias is showing mate , i know u are a big alonso fan and  i have said that kuyt is not lfc standard  , but i support him as he has done well ever since being moved to a winger ,  if he can get 10 to 12 goals in total a season and get decent assit rate , i'd say he has done his job as a winger . I'm not sure how many assist he has in total but in the premier league he has 7 assist and 3 goals i think and he has 10 goals in total this season . Don't get me wrong kuyt is no ronaldinho , or ronaldo but his determination and character has to be admired , he gives his all in every game he plays .

Perhaps my bias is showing but, from where I sit, Alonso has been nowhere near as poor as you make out.  Nowhere near.  You talk about Arteta and Fabregas as if they bossed us but, really, what did Arteta do in the Derby (answer: nothing) and did Fabregas kill us? No he didn't.  Neither did Hleb for that matter.  I watched the Arsenal-Man U game yesterday and Hleb was Arsenal's best player by a mile.  He was a bundle of energy and a real handful.  Was he that effervescent against us?  No he was not.  What does that tell you?  Well it tells me that our central midfield pairing--and that includes Alonso--did their jobs.  I'm not saying Alonso has been a midfield collossus or anything daft like that--just that he hasn't been as poor as you (and others) make out and that he's no more deserving of knee-jerk criticism (which is what yours has been, IMO) than Kuyt is.

Well them maybe u havan't see the alonso that i have bob? Maybe this lacklusture alonso is good enough for u and a starting place in the 11 ?? Secondly arterta won the ball of alonso on 2 to 3 occasions and got the better of him , he nicked the ball of him as xabi was delaying his pass , if that had led to a goal? Also against arsenal , fabregas and helb were all over him , yes it had no effect and thank god for that , he got off lightly , if u forgot , it was helb who made diaby's goal and i think it was alonso who lost his man . I'm not too sure but i'm not gonna make xabi the scapegoat but still helb had an effect against us . You say that the central midfield pairing did their jobs , thats where u have to look , how many tackles or balls did alonso win compared to mascherano before the suspension , or compare with gerrard or kuyt for that matter ?? He has been average at best this season , i have not seen him put in 1 solid match performance , he ususally does well in either half then fades away .

[Toffeehater]

I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, because as people know, I'm not one who follows the crowd.

Is that because the crowd tend to run faster than you ?   

I think Alonso was probably found out after his first season with us and after those first season displays any opposing managers instruction must surely be "for christs sake close him down, give him space and he could destroy us"

Maybe I'm looking for excuses for Alonso , I'm sure the class is still there , it's just that the fella's not being given time and space to fully exploit it. He's closed down very early and when he does get a bit of space He's still caught dwelling on the ball more than he should and really has to move his game up a gear if he wants to recapture the impact he first made with us. Still a top midfielder if not quite a great one but years ahead of Lucas imo.

Yes so shouldn't he work harder on his passing , change his gameplan ?? Look and pass quicker , the english premier league is not a league where u will get time to do everything you want .

I thought thats what I was saying with

He's still caught dwelling on the ball more than he should and really has to move his game up a gear if he wants to recapture the impact he first made with us.

Well then its my bad , sorry 
But in what sense is he years ahead of lucas? I think lucas has been better then him this season or if not on par and its been lucas's first season only and he's had to adapt to a foreign league and been given very limited oppturntuies

[Toffeehater]

I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, because as people know, I'm not one who follows the crowd.

Is that because the crowd tend to run faster than you ?   

I think Alonso was probably found out after his first season with us and after those first season displays any opposing managers instruction must surely be "for christs sake close him down, give him space and he could destroy us"

Maybe I'm looking for excuses for Alonso , I'm sure the class is still there , it's just that the fella's not being given time and space to fully exploit it. He's closed down very early and when he does get a bit of space He's still caught dwelling on the ball more than he should and really has to move his game up a gear if he wants to recapture the impact he first made with us. Still a top midfielder if not quite a great one but years ahead of Lucas imo.

Yes so shouldn't he work harder on his passing , change his gameplan ?? Look and pass quicker , the english premier league is not a league where u will get time to do everything you want .

FFS, this is getting annoying now.  So, yes, Alonso often gets closed down quickly, we all agree.  Smart tactics on the oppo's part, that.  But, what happens in those cases?  Does he just hoof it up the pitch or send wild, arrant passes every which way.  No he  does not.  He usually plays the simple ball back to a defender and then repositions himself to receive the return ball in more space.  He then, more often than not, turns and looks upfield and, more often than not, feeds a ball into Gerrard's feet "between the lines" or puts a diagonal ball out to either Babel or Kuyt, some of which they control, others of which they don't.  Some people make out like Xabi gets caught in possession a dozen times a match and is just this lead-footed passenger in midfield.  I tell you, watch the matches again and see how many times he keeps possession and passes it to a red shirt.  Simple but effective.

By passing back to the defence or being simple in terms of passing   in 8 out of 10 occassions does not win you games , He should be pushing the ball up and forward , how i don't know but thats what he's paid to do and if u can't well ......
You're not always gonna have space and time to pass back to a defender then repositon yourself to pass better , he should be doing it in one step , receive and pass , thats the alonso of the first season and maybe second

[Bad Bob]

Well them maybe u havan't see the alonso that i have bob? Maybe this lacklusture alonso is good enough for u and a starting place in the 11 ?? Secondly arterta won the ball of alonso on 2 to 3 occasions and got the better of him , he nicked the ball of him as xabi was delaying his pass , if that had led to a goal? Also against arsenal , fabregas and helb were all over him , yes it had no effect and thank god for that , he got off lightly , if u forgot , it was helb who made diaby's goal and i think it was alonso who lost his man . I'm not too sure but i'm not gonna make xabi the scapegoat but still helb had an effect against us . You say that the central midfield pairing did their jobs , thats where u have to look , how many tackles or balls did alonso win compared to mascherano before the suspension , or compare with gerrard or kuyt for that matter ?? He has been average at best this season , i have not seen him put in 1 solid match performance , he ususally does well in either half then fades away .

Well, I saw plenty of positives from Alonso in those games to more than offset the few negatives you've mentioned (and that I've acknowledged in the relevant match threads, TBPF)...much like you tend to point out when defending Kuyt.  My original point is that Alonso has been every bit as vital to the cause of late as Kuyt and perhaps railing against Kuyt-bashers while doing precisely the same thing with Alonso is a bit blinkered.  But, I'm content to agree to disagree on this one.

[Toffeehater]

Well them maybe u havan't see the alonso that i have bob? Maybe this lacklusture alonso is good enough for u and a starting place in the 11 ?? Secondly arterta won the ball of alonso on 2 to 3 occasions and got the better of him , he nicked the ball of him as xabi was delaying his pass , if that had led to a goal? Also against arsenal , fabregas and helb were all over him , yes it had no effect and thank god for that , he got off lightly , if u forgot , it was helb who made diaby's goal and i think it was alonso who lost his man . I'm not too sure but i'm not gonna make xabi the scapegoat but still helb had an effect against us . You say that the central midfield pairing did their jobs , thats where u have to look , how many tackles or balls did alonso win compared to mascherano before the suspension , or compare with gerrard or kuyt for that matter ?? He has been average at best this season , i have not seen him put in 1 solid match performance , he ususally does well in either half then fades away .

Well, I saw plenty of positives from Alonso in those games to more than offset the few negatives you've mentioned (and that I've acknowledged in the relevant match threads, TBPF)...much like you tend to point out when defending Kuyt.  My original point is that Alonso has been every bit as vital to the cause of late as Kuyt and perhaps railing against Kuyt-bashers while doing precisely the same thing with Alonso is a bit blinkered.  But, I'm content to agree to disagree on this one.

cheers then maybe this discussion shud end here seeming as i've already got a warning from woof for playing head tennis