Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

I thought Lucas was excellent yesterday. Won the ball back, kept it simple and was always willing to join in the attack.

Xabi on the other hand was poor again.

Funny, I thought almost the exact opposite.

Actually I agree with the Canadian.   

[stmichael]

All in all, I think the media would be creaming themselves over him if he was a Scouser with short hair.

[66-1112520797]

All in all, I think the media would be creaming themselves over him if he was a Scouser with short hair.

Who Lucas or Alonso ?

[bigmick]

Good thread this and here's my ten penneth worth (I don't do two penneths it doesn't suit me).

Firstly, Alonso. There's no question in my mind that he's some way short of being the player he was in his first season, and as has been debated many times that is probably due as much to the opposition more effectively nullifying his talents than anything else. That said I agree with Bob that he does come in for some unfair criticism on here, where his performances even when more than adequate are criticised and I have a bit of a theory why. I think it might well be the "Lando" factor which is taking effect.

By the "Lando" factor, I mean no disrespect to our currently absent drum beater in chief. What I mean though is that when the "is Alonso's form slightly on the dip" question first reared its ugly head around two years ago, so vehement was the defence of Xabi by his supporters club that anybody who dared to criticise was at best guilty of being blind to the nuances of professional football (being unable to see the famous "unseen" work) and at worst, a "clueless gimp". More recently, those who alluded to a slight preference perhaps for Masherano were ridiculed for their knee-jerkery, laughed at for their willingness to "forget about Juventus away". Human nature being what it is I think there is sometimes a tendency when proven right to kind of rub it in a bit (not in any sense because Xabi isn't an excellent player which he is, but equally he clearly and most definately isn't the most important player at the club as some claimed until they were blue in the face at the time). For my part I've tried not to get too involved in either side on the Masherano/Alonso debate, and indeed was critical of the Argenitinian when he first got into the team this season. As of now though it sems to me that anybody who doesn't accept that Masherano is the better player of the two is allowing loyalty to cloud their judgement.

That said though, the topic is supposedly about Lucas and Alonso only got brought into it as people naturally ask the quyestion whether or not we should sell Alonso and further, whether Lucas is ready to step in/up. Now just as Masherano is clearly currently superior to Alonso (IMHO of course before somebody goes off on one), Alonso is currently a much better player than Lucas. The question in hand of course is whether Lucas is going to surpass Xabi anytime soon. My own feeling is it depends on a couple of factors.

Firstly if Alonso can truly get somewhere near his very best form, then Lucas is going to have a mountain to climb to get past him. In reverse, obviously if Alonso continues in his present mode where he has very little effect on the outcome of games, then Lucas has more opportunites. As far as the Brazillian is concerned, he is a player who I like very much. He never fails during the course of a match to do something, somewhere during that match which smacks of quality. The glimpse can be annoyingly fleeting at times, but like Luis Garcia continually getting open in the box it's not coincidence that he can do it, the ability is there I'm absolutely certain to be a top player. Whether or not he can do it at Liverpool and in the Premiership though remains to be seen. HJe is too lightwieght at times, too profligate in posesion, and his telling contributions this season can be counted on the fingers of one hand. I can forgive that because he's shown something, but like Babel next season is a big season for him.

Good players may take time to settle but you see glimpses of quality, however infrequent. I'm more confident of Lucas than I am of Babel, but at least the Dutchman is physically of the right stuff. With his pace and athleticism, he has it in him with almost no development to score some goals in the Premiership. He is already probably at a level where he could get into the Aston Villa or Middlesboro teams as an out and out striker and do fairly well. Lucas however we are having to be more patient with, to carry on occasions. If we are currently seeing the best he has to offer, we should get rid as he won't make it. My feeling is though that there is moe under the surface, a player waiting to get out. I must admit I thought when I first saw him what we would be seeing more from him by now than we are, but I'd give him another season.

As for alonso, if we are going to continue with 4-5-1 then we should keep him. Even if we are going to go 4-4-2 we should keep him as first change central midfielder. On that note my hope is that some point before his career ends, one of Steven Gerrards managers might just remember that he used to be a brilliant box to box midfielder and ask him to perform the role again. The feeling persists that him and Masherano in a central two is probably as near as we are going to get to a perfect midfield almost regardles of who we sign. That is of course if the manager can't persuade the captain to have another season in his very best position as a right midfielder again 

[66-1112520797]

Good thread this and here's my ten penneth worth (I don't do two penneths it doesn't suit me).

Firstly, Alonso. There's no question in my mind that he's some way short of being the player he was in his first season, and as has been debated many times that is probably due as much to the opposition more effectively nullifying his talents than anything else. That said I agree with Bob that he does come in for some unfair criticism on here, where his performances even when more than adequate are criticised and I have a bit of a theory why. I think it might well be the "Lando" factor which is taking effect.

By the "Lando" factor, I mean no disrespect to our currently absent drum beater in chief. What I mean though is that when the "is Alonso's form slightly on the dip" question first reared its ugly head around two years ago, so vehement was the defence of Xabi by his supporters club that anybody who dared to criticise was at best guilty of being blind to the nuances of professional football (being unable to see the famous "unseen" work) and at worst, a "clueless gimp". More recently, those who alluded to a slight preference perhaps for Masherano were ridiculed for their knee-jerkery, laughed at for their willingness to "forget about Juventus away". Human nature being what it is I think there is sometimes a tendency when proven right to kind of rub it in a bit (not in any sense because Xabi isn't an excellent player which he is, but equally he clearly and most definately isn't the most important player at the club as some claimed until they were blue in the face at the time). For my part I've tried not to get too involved in either side on the Masherano/Alonso debate, and indeed was critical of the Argenitinian when he first got into the team this season. As of now though it sems to me that anybody who doesn't accept that Masherano is the better player of the two is allowing loyalty to cloud their judgement.

That said though, the topic is supposedly about Lucas and Alonso only got brought into it as people naturally ask the quyestion whether or not we should sell Alonso and further, whether Lucas is ready to step in/up. Now just as Masherano is clearly currently superior to Alonso (IMHO of course before somebody goes off on one), Alonso is currently a much better player than Lucas. The question in hand of course is whether Lucas is going to surpass Xabi anytime soon. My own feeling is it depends on a couple of factors.

Firstly if Alonso can truly get somewhere near his very best form, then Lucas is going to have a mountain to climb to get past him. In reverse, obviously if Alonso continues in his present mode where he has very little effect on the outcome of games, then Lucas has more opportunites. As far as the Brazillian is concerned, he is a player who I like very much. He never fails during the course of a match to do something, somewhere during that match which smacks of quality. The glimpse can be annoyingly fleeting at times, but like Luis Garcia continually getting open in the box it's not coincidence that he can do it, the ability is there I'm absolutely certain to be a top player. Whether or not he can do it at Liverpool and in the Premiership though remains to be seen. HJe is too lightwieght at times, too profligate in posesion, and his telling contributions this season can be counted on the fingers of one hand. I can forgive that because he's shown something, but like Babel next season is a big season for him.

Good players may take time to settle but you see glimpses of quality, however infrequent. I'm more confident of Lucas than I am of Babel, but at least the Dutchman is physically of the right stuff. With his pace and athleticism, he has it in him with almost no development to score some goals in the Premiership. He is already probably at a level where he could get into the Aston Villa or Middlesboro teams as an out and out striker and do fairly well. Lucas however we are having to be more patient with, to carry on occasions. If we are currently seeing the best he has to offer, we should get rid as he won't make it. My feeling is though that there is moe under the surface, a player waiting to get out. I must admit I thought when I first saw him what we would be seeing more from him by now than we are, but I'd give him another season.

As for alonso, if we are going to continue with 4-5-1 then we should keep him. Even if we are going to go 4-4-2 we should keep him as first change central midfielder. On that note my hope is that some point before his career ends, one of Steven Gerrards managers might just remember that he used to be a brilliant box to box midfielder and ask him to perform the role again. The feeling persists that him and Masherano in a central two is probably as near as we are going to get to a perfect midfield almost regardles of who we sign. That is of course if the manager can't persuade the captain to have another season in his very best position as a right midfielder again 

Nice post Mick and I'd agree with most of that, as previously said though I'm not sure/impressed by Lucas. As for everything else you've said ........ Spot on.

[bigmick]

The other factor in the "will Lucas and/or Babel make it next season" question is, what if they don't? By that, I mean we've just spunked 20 million quid and probably a bit of change on top signing them. If neither made it, the last closed season would have to go down as a disasterous one as far as transfers were concerned. For the good of the long term development of the team and club, we could really do with at least one of them becoming an absolute top-class player in his own right. Like I said in my monologue, my money would be more on Lucas out of the two.

[Ola Mr Benitez]

Alonso has been poor of late. He returned after his injury and bedded straight into this new system and for those first two or three games after his injury, he looked like he was returning to some sort of form, but since he's been sliding. I'm not talking about "hollywood" passes, I mean simple basic skills. He's playing simple passes asstray, he's not creating much and he's even seemed to lose awareness of other players around him. He seems to dwell on the ball alot more than is allowed in this league and I think he's been helped by Mascherano more than anybody else. Mascherano has covered for Alonso and Lucas (who the topic is about) and made up for their mistakes.

I really think this is utter balls! Sorry John, not wanting to have a pop at you, but it feels to me just becasue some people are saying Alonso is playing below par now everyone jumps on the bandwagon.

Some players take a season to get into thing in the Premiership and others have an absolute flyer, mainly because the oppo do not know the strengths of the new guy.  I think in Alonsos first season, he had more time as nobody knew how good he was.  Now he doesn't get a second, but he still rarely gives the ball away, he tackles brillinatly and is for me the perfect partner to both Mascha and Gerrard.

I think some fans have been blinded by the brilliance of his first season, but I honestly believe, he would play in ANY of the Premierships teams every game with the performances he has put in every season he has been with us.

Lucas for me is one for the future.  In an ideal world he would come off the bench and gain some experience (and some muscle/weight).  Alonso has to stay at Liverpool.

[stmichael]

All in all, I think the media would be creaming themselves over him if he was a Scouser with short hair.

Who Lucas or Alonso ?

Lucas mate.

I thoughy Xabi started off well and faded, whereas Lucas got stronger as the game went on. Ok he seriously needs to bulk up, but the talent is clearly there.

He's got great ability in tight spaces and he has the mobility in the middle of the park that we have lacked in the past few seasons. Played Gerrard in wonderfully for the goal aswell.

[66-1112520797]

the last closed season would have to go down as a disasterous one as far as transfers were concerned.

Not sure about disasterous Mick, what about Torres, Mascha and Skertel (who I think is a good prospect).

Some of his signings have been iffy, but those three above especially Torres and Mascha were probably the best bit of business this club has done for the last 20 years or so. Throw Hyypia and possibly Hamman into that aswell, but still their world class sigings.

[66-1112520797]

Played Gerrard in wonderfully for the goal aswell.

Did too.

[bigmick]

the last closed season would have to go down as a disasterous one as far as transfers were concerned.

Not sure about disasterous Mick, what about Torres, Mascha and Skertel (who I think is a good prospect).

Some of his signings have been iffy, but those three above especially Torres and Mascha were probably the best bit of business this club has done for the last 20 years or so. Throw Hyypia and possibly Hamman into that aswell, but still their world class sigings.

Yes when you consider the Torres signing my statement looks daft (probably because it is  ) but I'm not criticising rafa in the transfer market, I've always said I think he's bought pretty well in the main.

I was really trying to make the point (not very successfully) that you invest big in young, unproven players, you need one of them to come off. As long as either Lucas or Babel comes good, the money will be well spent. We aren't Man U or Chelsea though who can afford to waste money with a grapeshot approach on players.

Skyrtel's slightly different to mash and Torres though in my eyes because I'm unconvinced, or at least a lot less convinced than most of the posters on here that he is anything special. I'm not saying he's sh!te or anything (I'm too canny for that, the fecker'll turn out to be Franz Beckenbauer  ) but I do think one or two people are getting a bit carried away.

[stmichael]

Skrtel's slightly different to mash and Torres though in my eyes because I'm unconvinced, or at least a lot less convinced than most of the posters on here that he is anything special. I'm not saying he's sh!te or anything (I'm too canny for that, the fecker'll turn out to be Franz Beckenbauer  ) but I do think one or two people are getting a bit carried away.

I can see where you're coming from Bigmick. As solid as he's been he's also been getting away with a few things recently.
He was slow out for Blackburn's offside chance, was clumsy with Roberts on the edge of the box and could have been sent off when he dragged him too. He also failed to get a proper header on their goal. I know Sami can't play every week but he's still ahead of him for me. When Agger comes back into the equation next season things will be very interesting indeed.

Still like Skrtel though and think he's been a good acquisition. I bet Wenger looks at him and is thinking why he didn't have a look at him in January aswell.

[Bad Bob]

I think it might well be the "Lando" factor which is taking effect.

The "Lando Factor".    It's funny because it's true. 

[Bad Bob]

Against Aresenal he ran more than any other player on the pitch bar Fabregas, including our players, yet no one noticed that. Im in 2 minds really Bob. Kuyt works hard yet he should stay, Alonso work even harder , and is better in almost every department, but he should go. People confuse me. Most of the time I confuse myself admittedly, I have 2 opnions for matters, and alot of the time I dont no what one to go with:D

He worked harder in 1 game thne kuyt , and also , better in every department? No sorry , he's better at passing but these days , even that has been below par this few seasons .

You crack me up, mate.  You're always well annoyed when people criticize Kuyt yet you have a pop at Alonso every single game.  What's the difference?

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Alonso has been poor of late. He returned after his injury and bedded straight into this new system and for those first two or three games after his injury, he looked like he was returning to some sort of form, but since he's been sliding. I'm not talking about "hollywood" passes, I mean simple basic skills. He's playing simple passes asstray, he's not creating much and he's even seemed to lose awareness of other players around him. He seems to dwell on the ball alot more than is allowed in this league and I think he's been helped by Mascherano more than anybody else. Mascherano has covered for Alonso and Lucas (who the topic is about) and made up for their mistakes.

I really think this is utter balls! Sorry John, not wanting to have a pop at you, but it feels to me just becasue some people are saying Alonso is playing below par now everyone jumps on the bandwagon.

Some players take a season to get into thing in the Premiership and others have an absolute flyer, mainly because the oppo do not know the strengths of the new guy.  I think in Alonsos first season, he had more time as nobody knew how good he was.  Now he doesn't get a second, but he still rarely gives the ball away, he tackles brillinatly and is for me the perfect partner to both Mascha and Gerrard.

I think some fans have been blinded by the brilliance of his first season, but I honestly believe, he would play in ANY of the Premierships teams every game with the performances he has put in every season he has been with us.

Lucas for me is one for the future.  In an ideal world he would come off the bench and gain some experience (and some muscle/weight).  Alonso has to stay at Liverpool.

don't get me wrong mate, I think Alonso is a great player and maybe it's because his standards are so high that he's looking below par, but he really hasn't been the same player for some time. he's disappointed me in recent weeks, and I'm not jumping on any bandwagon, because as people know, I'm not one who follows the crowd, but I really haven't seen the best of Xabi Alonso for about 24 months now.

I'm just wondering if there's a little bit of truth in those stories earlier in the season. The ones concerning Alonso and Reina being homesick, both have come in for criticism of late and I am just wondering if they are homesick and will be off in the summer. I hope neither go and hope both can regain their best of form. Lets not forget that Alonso has recently had a kid, so the homelife won't be as easy as it was when he first arrived.