Liverpool FC Forum

[7_Kewell]

Minimum expectation?  Are you for real?

There are 6 teams fighting for 4 spaces, 7 actually if you include Newcastle.  Three of those, the current top 3, are clearly stronger than us at this point in time, so basically it's between us, Chelsea and Arsenal for 4th.

Chelsea have outspent Man City in the last 12 months and Arsenal will always be a force to be reckoned with as long as they have Wenger, so to say our absolute minimum expectation is to finish above those two teams is ridiculous.

Top 6 would be minimum expectation, in that if we finished lower than that serious questions would have to be asked of Dalglish.  And if Newcastle did finish above us, I do think serious questions would have to be asked.  Top 4 would have been a brilliant season for us, and it's still possible, but time is running out for this team to gel in time for it to happen.

As I see it, top 4 was maximum expectation, not minimum expectation, this season.

yes i am very real and i find it puzzling how so many people are outraged by my exoectation afteri posted a thread about it back in JULY.

Maybe i'm missing something, but i don't remember many posters flying off the handle and saying top 4 was a stupid suggestion...quite the opposite. In fact, 60% of this forum has said the same thing. 4th place was a must for us this season...

How far do we have to fall before we can ask questions of Kenny's management?  We've got a tough run of games coming and up and we could be struggling to stay in the top 10 come march.

[Waldo]

Found myself questioning KD for the first time after watching the game last night. We were dreadful and Kenny's comments post match were spot on as some looked like they were well off colour. Hopefully just a blip and we can move on from it and look forward to the next couple of (very tough) games coming up.

That being said Kenny cannot keep tinkering with the team/lineup. It's been proven time and time again that tinkering with the team week in week simply doesn't work. Yesterday Gerrard was far too deep, Henderson is not and never will be a wide player and Adam looked like a pub footballer. Henderson and Adam had been getting on OK IMO alongside each other in CM so why change it? The only player who got pass marks for me last was Craig Bellamy and no doubt he will find himself on the bench for the next game!!

[worcester_red]

Fans are fickle, even the so called "most knowledgable fans in football". I am truly embarrassed by some of the comments both on and off this forum from some of our "supporters".
Try not to take them seriously and dont get upset at their ignorance.

yeah I agree.....

who would say a thing like this ? 

"Are people serious!
Why this lazy, ineffectual tw@t hasnt been criticised is unbelievable. He was Fu*king shocking yesterday and should have been dragged off and been suspended for a month.
Shameful performance from a seasoned international. You want to single Carroll out for being sh'ite? Look at this sh'ithouse before you start mouthing off"

Nice try
This is not me being fickle. I have said on many occassions that Johnson is a sh'ithouse. He has proven me right again yesterday.
Far more serious is people saying KK should be sacked. Foolish, dangerous, and fickle

Dangerous?!

Why is it dangerous?

I don't think Dalgish should be sacked btw, but your choice of words puzzles me.

Dangerous because we could be sucked into a chelsea type situation where the manager is changed more than Obramovitches underpants.
Once we start this hiring and firing sack race its a long and fruitless road to mediocraty or oblivion. We must give KK time and lower our expectations. The obvious answers aside, why should we believe that we are  by rights a top four team? I am as gulity as the next man, or Kerry, of expecting success. But lets not forget we have had a torrid time in the last five or six years, which coincides with the amount of time since we won our last trophy.
Changing managers isnt always the answer.

Yes but sticking with a manager who has no clear plan is extremely dangerous as well unless you are satisfied with Liverpool becoming a midtable team which is where we are heading.
KK's signings have not worked, not only are they not good enough, they aren't interested in being here.
I think we need a change of management because I don't feel the players are playing for Kenny and that was the major strength I thought he had.
He did well in rescuing us from the relegation zone but I don't feel he's the right man to take us forward.

[worcester_red]

Minimum expectation?  Are you for real?

There are 6 teams fighting for 4 spaces, 7 actually if you include Newcastle.  Three of those, the current top 3, are clearly stronger than us at this point in time, so basically it's between us, Chelsea and Arsenal for 4th.

Chelsea have outspent Man City in the last 12 months and Arsenal will always be a force to be reckoned with as long as they have Wenger, so to say our absolute minimum expectation is to finish above those two teams is ridiculous.

Top 6 would be minimum expectation, in that if we finished lower than that serious questions would have to be asked of Dalglish.  And if Newcastle did finish above us, I do think serious questions would have to be asked.  Top 4 would have been a brilliant season for us, and it's still possible, but time is running out for this team to gel in time for it to happen.

As I see it, top 4 was maximum expectation, not minimum expectation, this season.

yes i am very real and i find it puzzling how so many people are outraged by my exoectation afteri posted a thread about it back in JULY.

Maybe i'm missing something, but i don't remember many posters flying off the handle and saying top 4 was a stupid suggestion...quite the opposite. In fact, 60% of this forum has said the same thing. 4th place was a must for us this season...

How far do we have to fall before we can ask questions of Kenny's management?  We've got a tough run of games coming and up and we could be struggling to stay in the top 10 come march.

Also didn't the owners say that their minimum expectations were 4th, I presume that's why they allowed Kenny to spend all that money.

[7_Kewell]

this might make useful reading. It was from an interview with Henry back in the summer...


Liverpool owner John W Henry has confirmed the club's main aim this season is to get back into the top four.

The Reds have not qualified for the UEFA Champions League since 2009, when they finished as runners-up to Manchester United.
Now under the control of Henry's Fenway Sports Group, the club have brought legend Kenny Dalglish back as manager and have splashed out huge amounts in the last six months.

Luis Suarez, Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam and Jordan Henderson have all arrived and Henry is expecting a top-four finish.

Henry, who was speaking in Norway ahead of Liverpool's friendly with Valerenga, admitted the league title was probably not within their sights.

"It's too early for us to start talking about winning the league," said Henry to Dagbladet.

"In my opinion Manchester United are the ones to beat. They have a good squad, and look really good.

"Our main goal is to qualify for the Champions League. If we don't it would be a major disappointment."


LINK

so, there you have it...the board expect top 4 too....

[worcester_red]

this might make useful reading. It was from an interview with Henry back in the summer...


Liverpool owner John W Henry has confirmed the club's main aim this season is to get back into the top four.

The Reds have not qualified for the UEFA Champions League since 2009, when they finished as runners-up to Manchester United.
Now under the control of Henry's Fenway Sports Group, the club have brought legend Kenny Dalglish back as manager and have splashed out huge amounts in the last six months.

Luis Suarez, Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam and Jordan Henderson have all arrived and Henry is expecting a top-four finish.

Henry, who was speaking in Norway ahead of Liverpool's friendly with Valerenga, admitted the league title was probably not within their sights.

"It's too early for us to start talking about winning the league," said Henry to Dagbladet.

"In my opinion Manchester United are the ones to beat. They have a good squad, and look really good.

"Our main goal is to qualify for the Champions League. If we don't it would be a major disappointment."


LINK

so, there you have it...the board expect top 4 too....

I presume some on here will call them bitters who should f off and support another team.   

[JC_81]

Minimum expectation?  Are you for real?

There are 6 teams fighting for 4 spaces, 7 actually if you include Newcastle.  Three of those, the current top 3, are clearly stronger than us at this point in time, so basically it's between us, Chelsea and Arsenal for 4th.

Chelsea have outspent Man City in the last 12 months and Arsenal will always be a force to be reckoned with as long as they have Wenger, so to say our absolute minimum expectation is to finish above those two teams is ridiculous.

Top 6 would be minimum expectation, in that if we finished lower than that serious questions would have to be asked of Dalglish.  And if Newcastle did finish above us, I do think serious questions would have to be asked.  Top 4 would have been a brilliant season for us, and it's still possible, but time is running out for this team to gel in time for it to happen.

As I see it, top 4 was maximum expectation, not minimum expectation, this season.

yes i am very real and i find it puzzling how so many people are outraged by my exoectation afteri posted a thread about it back in JULY.

Maybe i'm missing something, but i don't remember many posters flying off the handle and saying top 4 was a stupid suggestion...quite the opposite. In fact, 60% of this forum has said the same thing. 4th place was a must for us this season...

How far do we have to fall before we can ask questions of Kenny's management?  We've got a tough run of games coming and up and we could be struggling to stay in the top 10 come march.

No one is saying top 4 was a stupid suggestion and neither am I.  It still is potentially within our reach this season.  But we're competing with two other sides for 4th, both of whom would also be seriously disappointed at finishing outside the top 4.  6 into 4 doesn't go and 2 will miss out. 

I'm just saying that when you look at where we were a year ago, then to have a hissy fit at the prospect of finishing outside the top 4 is ridiculous.

I don't really care if the owners said 4th was minimum expectation either.  With the greatest respect, me, you and most of the people on this forum know more about football than them.

[JC_81]

this might make useful reading. It was from an interview with Henry back in the summer...


Liverpool owner John W Henry has confirmed the club's main aim this season is to get back into the top four.

The Reds have not qualified for the UEFA Champions League since 2009, when they finished as runners-up to Manchester United.
Now under the control of Henry's Fenway Sports Group, the club have brought legend Kenny Dalglish back as manager and have splashed out huge amounts in the last six months.

Luis Suarez, Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam and Jordan Henderson have all arrived and Henry is expecting a top-four finish.

Henry, who was speaking in Norway ahead of Liverpool's friendly with Valerenga, admitted the league title was probably not within their sights.

"It's too early for us to start talking about winning the league," said Henry to Dagbladet.

"In my opinion Manchester United are the ones to beat. They have a good squad, and look really good.

"Our main goal is to qualify for the Champions League. If we don't it would be a major disappointment."


LINK

so, there you have it...the board expect top 4 too....

Where in that does it say he 'expects' top 4?  You are twisting words, you'd make an excellent journalist mate.

He said he woukld be majorly disappointed at finishing outside the top 4, as would I, doesn't mean I expected top 4 though.

[7_Kewell]

this might make useful reading. It was from an interview with Henry back in the summer...


Liverpool owner John W Henry has confirmed the club's main aim this season is to get back into the top four.

The Reds have not qualified for the UEFA Champions League since 2009, when they finished as runners-up to Manchester United.
Now under the control of Henry's Fenway Sports Group, the club have brought legend Kenny Dalglish back as manager and have splashed out huge amounts in the last six months.

Luis Suarez, Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Charlie Adam and Jordan Henderson have all arrived and Henry is expecting a top-four finish.

Henry, who was speaking in Norway ahead of Liverpool's friendly with Valerenga, admitted the league title was probably not within their sights.

"It's too early for us to start talking about winning the league," said Henry to Dagbladet.

"In my opinion Manchester United are the ones to beat. They have a good squad, and look really good.

"Our main goal is to qualify for the Champions League. If we don't it would be a major disappointment."


LINK

so, there you have it...the board expect top 4 too....

Where in that does it say he 'expects' top 4?  You are twisting words, you'd make an excellent journalist mate.

He said he woukld be majorly disappointed at finishing outside the top 4, as would I, doesn't mean I expected top 4 though.

I am a journalist

But it's not twisting words...our owner has said, on the record, that our goal is top 4 this year and if we don't get it then it'll be a major disapointment

I'm not sure how you can read that and not accept that Henry is expecting a top-four finish this season

[Thommo's perm]

The thing about football is that the situation can change dramatically in a short space of time.
Now that KK has publicly threatened the players we would hope to see a difference. Obviously I dont want mid table mediocrity and I have faith that now KK has said what he has said things will change.
I found it really interesting that he should point out that 4 corners went into the goalies hands and that those who took them deserve criticism and said if it was repeated then those players wouldnt be in a red shirt. I think they were Adam, Bellamy and Gerrard

[JC_81]

I am a journalist

But it's not twisting words...our owner has said, on the record, that our goal is top 4 this year and if we don't get it then it'll be a major disapointment

I'm not sure how you can read that and not accept that Henry is expecting a top-four finish this season

Fair enough!

We'll agree to disagree then mate, because for me that's twisting words.

[LFC2007]

Coming off the back of last season I think most people, owners included, thought it not unrealistic, expected even, that we could finish fourth this season. Yes, it would mean displacing one of the other major clubs, but few expected Spurs to go so well, Arsenal had just lost both Fabregas and Nasri upon whom they had depended greatly, while Chelsea had a new manager, an aging squad and a raft of new signings who had yet to gel. It stood to reason that if Kenny could get a weakened team performing to a top four standard in just six months then surely it wasn't unrealistic to think we could replicate that over a season. In fact, many people went much further than that, assuming a continued upward trajectory that, once the squad had been strengthened with new signings, might even see us win the league (you know who you are  ). This was all a bit too simplistic for my liking and not least because it's an altogether different pressure to challenge for fourth from the very beginning of a season than it is to revive a team that has little hope of actually finishing fourth mid-way through a season, as was the case when Kenny took over from Roy.

Add to that the new signings that had yet to be tested, the possibility that we had underestimated some of the other sides competing for the same positions and you could begin to appreciate that it might not be as simple as merely continuing into this season the form of the last six months of the previous season. And it wasn't. Although the doubts about Chelsea and Arsenal's ability to compete have been realised (up to this point) allowing us an opportunity to compete for fourth we might otherwise not have had, our own form didn't continue along the same path; it dipped to average somewhere between what Roy achieved with the team in six months (1.25 pts/game) to what Kenny achieved with the team last season (1.83pts/game), slightly closer to the latter than the former at 1.59pts/game. That points average would have been enough for a top four finish in just one of the ten seasons since the PL was awarded a fourth CL place and, with Chelsea underperforming but still averaging 1.86pts/game, there is little suggest that we could continue on the same points path and make the top four (this may well be stating the obvious but it's always worth getting the facts out there).

The average points total of the fourth placed sides in the ten seasons since fourth place brought with it CL qualification is 68 points or 1.79 pts/game. The team would need to average 2.06 pts/game for the remainder of the season to finish on 68 points and have a reasonable chance of making the top four.

Thank f'uck we're still in the domestic cups.

[Ciggy]

And so it begins............ lessons not learned from the last debacle those wanting kenny out are the same ones that got that fuckin Owl the job !!!!

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

Calling for Kenny to go is an absolute joke and would make a mockery of the club, the fans and the owners. Whilst the performances are by far sub-standard at this moment in time, our position currently is not and a sacking of Kenny at this point would be 10 times more ridiculous than when Hughes got booted from Man City. Anyone on here who thinks that such a move is justified should seriously look in the mirror and consider going to support someone else. Personally, I don't need your opinions and the club doesn't need em either. Either get on board, or P1ss off. First time I have ever felt the need to say anything heavy in response to the WUM's and the negatives in 7 years......enough is enough.

Kenny showed his mettle last night and my personal feeling has always been, only a fool underestimates the force of him when he gets going. Don't be fooled by the affable exterior, this is no Hodgson with empty words and football cliches week in week out, no mental face rubbing here. He has stood behind the team in public week in week out and shown them the Liverpool way, it seems there are some major issues in the changing room at the moment, which is a concern. That interview left me in no doubt who will pull through.

Put the trust in Kenny, put the trust in the boot room and keep the trust in the owners. We as fans and the power of the internet unfortunately have the power to make or break almost anyone these days. As the saying goes, with great power comes great responsibility. All, take a step back, remember what the news was like 18 months ago with the old owners and managers, look how it is now...which do you prefer? Anyone who votes for the former is smoking crack. Sit back, focus on the team and let Kenny, the bootroom and the owners get on with it with our full support. DO NOT GIVE THE MEDIA WHAT THEY WANT HERE.....we are the only ones who will suffer in the long term.

Top post fella .

The media have been relentless in their dogged pursuit of Dalglish and the club ,and its now bordering on a very public character assassination .... disgraceful .

[Thommo's perm]

Coming off the back of last season I think most people, owners included, thought it not unrealistic, expected even, that we could finish fourth this season. Yes, it would mean displacing one of the other major clubs, but few expected Spurs to go so well, Arsenal had just lost both Fabregas and Nasri upon whom they had depended greatly, while Chelsea had a new manager, an aging squad and a raft of new signings who had yet to gel. It stood to reason that if Kenny could get a weakened team performing to a top four standard in just six months then surely it wasn't unrealistic to think we could replicate that over a season. In fact, many people went much further than that, assuming a continued upward trajectory that, once the squad had been strengthened with new signings, might even see us win the league (you know who you are  ). This was all a bit too simplistic for my liking and not least because it's an altogether different pressure to challenge for fourth from the very beginning of a season than it is to revive a team that has little hope of actually finishing fourth mid-way through a season, as was the case when Kenny took over from Roy.

Add to that the new signings that had yet to be tested, the possibility that we had underestimated some of the other sides competing for the same positions and you could begin to appreciate that it might not be as simple as merely continuing into this season the form of the last six months of the previous season. And it wasn't. Although the doubts about Chelsea and Arsenal's ability to compete have been realised (up to this point) allowing us an opportunity to compete for fourth we might otherwise not have had, our own form didn't continue along the same path; it dipped to average somewhere between what Roy achieved with the team in six months (1.25 pts/game) to what Kenny achieved with the team last season (1.83pts/game), slightly closer to the latter than the former at 1.59pts/game. That points average would have been enough for a top four finish in just one of the ten seasons since the PL was awarded a fourth CL place and, with Chelsea underperforming but still averaging 1.86pts/game, there is little suggest that we could continue on the same points path and make the top four (this may well be stating the obvious but it's always worth getting the facts out there).

The average points total of the fourth placed sides in the ten seasons since fourth place brought with it CL qualification is 68 points or 1.79 pts/game. The team would need to average 2.06 pts/game for the remainder of the season to finish on 68 points and have a reasonable chance of making the top four.

Thank f'uck we're still in the domestic cups.

We could still win the league. Until its mathematically impossible...

Using the logic you described i.e. duplicating the way we played when KK took over, then its obvious that expectations were raised too high.
I am an optimist by nature and dont see the point in moaning all the time. I believe in positive thinking and that you shouldnt give up until theres no hope whatsoever.
Even then there might be a chance. But I think realistically myself and others have set our sights too high and must now accept that we may not be capable of a CL place