Liverpool FC Forum

[kazza]

I think had we managed to get Tchoumeni, we would be in a lot better shape than we are, unfortunately he chose Real. The mistake the club made was not having alternatives as it was screamingly obvious we needed to strengthen our midfield. It was probably much more obvious we needed to strengthen our midfield than it was when we needed to strengthen our defense when Lovren left and we know what happened that year. Both times we pushed our luck and got caught out when we got an unusual amount of injuries. Is it the owners fault that we didn’t have an alternative to Tchoumeni? Certainly the club’s fault, not sure it is the owners though.

Last few years we have been buying top players. We have also picked up gems in January, hopefully this year is no different.

One negative I would say about Klopp… he is a very empathetic manager that get his players to play for him and join his family, that type of coach probably finds it hard to part ways with those he likes. Ferguson was always quick to axe a player if not performing or starting to decline, I feel Klopp is less ruthless and probably holds on too long to players that may need to move on.

[kazza]

Highest net spend in the last decade

1. ManUre        1.1 billion
2. Man City       985m
3. PSG              940m
4. Barca           640m
5. Arsenal        583m
6. Juve            560m
7. AC Milan      432m
8. Everton       430m
9. Aston Villa   424m
10. Chelsea      413m

[UvS xR4GEx]

We are the 4th most expensive first 11... but that first 11 hasn't been touched since 2018. All the other teams on that list have refreshed a full 11 in that time so that's no indication of how cheap FSG have been since 2018.

Players that have arrived since 2018

Alisson
Keita
Fabinho
Shaqiri
Thiago
Jota
Kostas
Minamino
Diaz
Konate
Elliot
Nunez
Carvahlo
Ramsey

Our first 11 from 2018 was..

Alisson

Robbo
Virgil
Matip
Trent

Gini
Fabinho
Hendo

Salah
Bobby
Mane


Only Thiago and Diaz have broken into the first 11 on a consistent level. Thiago for Gini and Diaz for Mane.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

We are the 4th most expensive first 11... but that first 11 hasn't been touched since 2018. All the other teams on that list have refreshed a full 11 in that time so that's no indication of how cheap FSG have been since 2018.

Players that have arrived since 2018

Alisson
Keita
Fabinho
Shaqiri
Thiago
Jota
Kostas
Minamino
Diaz
Konate
Elliot
Nunez
Carvahlo
Ramsey

Our first 11 from 2018 was..

Alisson

Robbo
Virgil
Matip
Trent

Gini
Fabinho
Hendo

Salah
Bobby
Mane


Only Thiago and Diaz have broken into the first 11 on a consistent level. Thiago for Gini and Diaz for Mane.

So you mean from 18/19 season then as the likes of Fabinho , Allison arrived summer 2018


And in that period since then Jota and Konate have played significant amount of games as also has Keita

So yes the first team has moved on since then

[Reg]

You're grasping at straws mentioning Keita....

[UvS xR4GEx]

Jota and Konate are squad players who only play when one of the first 11 are either injured or rested.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

Jota and Konate are squad players who only play when one of the first 11 are either injured or rested.

No they aren’t - Konate would be first choice when fully fit and Jota came in and replaced Bobby - Jota starts more times when he is fit

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

You're grasping at straws mentioning Keita....

Amazingly he managed to get 40 games under his belt last season - injuries has stopped him being a regular starter

[devaney]

I am actually more concerned with what Keita  actually did in those 40 games! You’ll be suggesting next that Oxlade-Chamberlain is the answer to our midfield problems

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

I am actually more concerned with what Keita  actually did in those 40 games! You’ll be suggesting next that Oxlade-Chamberlain is the answer to our midfield problems

Keita actually played well last season - gave a lot of false hope

[Reg]

Many of Keita's games were cameo appearances. I expect his 90 minute games could be counted on a single finger.

[Lallana in Pyjamas]

Many of Keita's games were cameo appearances. I expect his 90 minute games could be counted on a single finger.

He started 25 games across Prem and CL and made a sub appearance for 15 further games

[Reg]

He's only ever been a cameo role player, never justified a regular first team place. I'm not going to waste my time debating Keita that's for sure.

[kazza]

Richard Morgan
Football journalist @Richiereds1976
Thursday 3 November 2022 18:10, UK
Almost a decade ago, Jurgen Klopp's Borussia Dortmund went from German champions and one of Europe's most-feared sides to barely being able to win a match as the German's seven-year spell at the club came to a shuddering halt - so could things be repeating themselves now at Liverpool?

Heading into the 2014-15 season, Dortmund were once again expected to be the main challengers to Pep Guardiola's Bayern Munich. The two clubs, like Liverpool and Man City's recent Premier League's battles, had enjoyed a fierce rivalry ever since Klopp had taken over at Signal Iduna Park in 2008, with the Bavarians beating Klopp's team to the Bundesliga in 2013-14.

However, with Klopp having only signed a new contract at Dortmund in October 2013 - ring any bells anyone? - hopes were high at the Westfalenstadion they could repeat their back-to-back title wins under him in 2011 and 2012.

The club, though, would have to try to wrestle back their Bundesliga crown from Bayern without one of the key architects behind their recent successes, Robert Lewandowski, who had agreed to move to the Allianz Arena that summer.

As with Sadio Mane's departure from Liverpool to Munich in June this year, Klopp had tried but failed to persuade his influential forward to stay, leaving a huge hole to fill in attack the following season.

Why Dortmund's implosion under Klopp should worry Liverpool fans

Similar to when Liverpool beat City to claim the Community Shield in July, there were no obvious signs of the struggles to follow as Dortmund confidently dispatched Bayern 2-0 to win the German Supercup in August 2014.

This, after all, was still very much the same side who only lost the 2013 Champions League final against Bayern to a last-minute Arjen Robben goal, although looking back now with the advantage of hindsight, it was also an ageing team that had been going flat out under Klopp for the previous six years.

None of that, however, explained how the team suddenly went from being Bayern's closest challengers just a few months earlier to one that had just 11 points to their name after 12 games of the campaign, including a dreadful run of five straight defeats that sent them spiralling into the drop zone in November.

It was Dortmund's worst start to a Bundesliga season and one that left their coach bewildered and angry: "It's a brutal, s***** situation, crazy," he said at the time.

And like with this season at Anfield, the club's form in Europe was oddly unaffected by their travails at home as they topped a tough-looking Champions League group, with every win immediately followed by claims the corner had now been turned.

But frustratingly, it had not as Klopp's trusted lieutenant, Peter Krawietz, recalls in Rafa Honigstein's book, 'Klopp: Bring the Noise': "In the Champions League, we did OK, we qualified for the knock-out rounds, but that only made us wonder if we were lacking the right attitude in the league. You're in a spiral, going round in circles, going down. And we didn't manage to get out of it."

Dortmund's nosedive in results was certainly not helped by Ciro Immobile's struggles in attack, as the man brought in to replace Lewandowski found it hard to adapt to life in the Ruhr Valley and for the first time under Klopp, their transfer business was questioned.

However, as with Liverpool this season, the problems ran far deeper than just the departure of one key player.

Dortmund were not only suffering from injuries to several key players - Klopp called it "the worst injury crisis in the history of football" - which meant they were unable to rotate as often as the manager wanted, but the packed schedule also led to less time on the training pitch in which to iron out their mounting problems in what became a vicious cycle.

Klopp bristled at suggestions from the press that the gegenpressing style he had implemented so effectively at Westphalia had now led to burnout and injuries among his players, snapping back with: "a wretched question, Bayern have injuries too, but they can compensate them better," when a journalist suggested as much ahead of facing Munich.

But it was not just a lengthening injury list that was the problem, Dortmund had become to find it increasingly hard to break down teams who came to Signal Iduna Park with a low block and looking to play on the break.

As with Liverpool this season, Klopp's Dortmund lost several key players to injury in the 2014-15 campaign
Klopp's side would routinely dominate games, creating numerous openings, only to squander them and then lose to a goal scored on the counterattack.

"We kept losing games in exactly the same way," recalled Krawietz. "We were extremely vulnerable to counterattacks. We played games where we enjoyed plenty of possession, created good chances, but lost 1-0 or 2-0 because of a couple of counterattacks."


"We kept losing games in exactly the same way," recalled Krawietz. "We were extremely vulnerable to counterattacks. We played games where we enjoyed plenty of possession, created good chances, but lost 1-0 or 2-0 because of a couple of counterattacks."
Peter Krawietz
And as has also happened at Liverpool this season, the German was quick to dismiss suggestions the rest of the league had now worked his side out, telling a local reporter as much: "I'm not looking for a fight, so I will even answer the stupid questions. If you say we've been 'found out', what does that say about the work of opposition coaches for the last few years? Were they unable to see what our game is?"

Either way, though, the pressure was clearly telling on Klopp, who as well as scolding journalists in press conferences, was also berating referees and their assistants, leading to numerous red cards and hefty fines as we saw in Liverpool's recent win over Man City at Anfield.


"I don't recognise myself sometimes on the touchline," Klopp said after one particularly volcanic eruption at a fourth official in Naples had led to his dismissal from the touchline.

Incredibly, at the midway point of the season, the team were still languishing in the relegation zone, with only goal difference keeping them off the bottom of the table.

However, the midseason winter break came at exactly the right time for Klopp and his beleaguered players, just as he will hope also happens with Liverpool when the campaign pauses for the World Cup later this month.

"We had at last a chance to regenerate and practice a few things without the pressure of competitive football," says Krawietz. "It was clear that with a bit of rest for the legs and heads, we'd be able to get it right, that this team could function again."

They did as Dortmund slowly managed to pull themselves up the table when the campaign resumed after a six-week hiatus, helped by a four-game winning run in February 2015.

In fact, for a while there was even belief Dortmund could scramble into the Champions League places, only for them to finish seventh and with it qualification for the Europa League third qualifying round.

But it was a demoralising 3-0 home loss to Juventus in the Champions last 16 in March that ultimately convinced Klopp his time was up at the club, the shock announcement coming the following month with Dortmund lying an incredible 37 points behind the leaders Bayern.

All this just 18 months after Klopp had agreed a two-year contract extension to keep him at the Westfalenstadion until 2018, and less than two years on from contesting the final of Europe's premier club competition in what's a warning to Liverpool fans just how quickly things can turn sour in football.

Klopp himself may refute suggestions the same thing is happening now at Liverpool, saying last month about his Dortmund exit: "Seven years and it was just a situation that players constantly got bought by other clubs. It was a really hard job to do, constantly making two steps back. It was really intense and really exhausting, which is the reason why I said we had to stop it here, but I didn't have an energy problem, not at all.

"I have absolutely no problem with energy and the situation is completely different here. I can understand that I left after seven years (previously) and now we are in a difficult situation and people take that (view) but, if you think twice about it, you realise the situation is completely different."

However, if you had told Dortmund supporters in May 2012 that the man who had just guided them to a league and cup double - their second straight Bundesliga title - would had left the club within three years, you would have been laughed out of town.

[Eagle]

Many of Keita's games were cameo appearances. I expect his 90 minute games could be counted on a single finger.

To be fair to Keita, he did start 19 out of 51 games across the PL and CL last year. With Thiago and Henderson fit for the bulk of the season, he did his job as a squad player and started in the CL opener against AC Milan, both legs of the QF against Benfica, the 2nd leg of the SF against Villarreal, and he was warming up in case Thiago couldn't start the final against Real Madrid. He also started the LC final against Chelsea and the FA Cup SF against Man City, and not to mention starts away in PL against Man Utd and Spurs. One of our best players on the pitch when we beat Man Utd at Old Trafford, Man City at Wembley, and Chelsea on penalties in the LC final.