Liverpool FC Forum

[heimdall]

Why is it people always have to have a reason to pop off at him? Especially with whats going on right now, people need to be a bit more posative. We have a world class striker in Torres and we almost won the league. Enough said. Have some faith people. Rafa is having to compete with the rest with half the budget.

But it didnt take a genius to spot that torres was world class mate, the thanks for signing him should go to the owners for coughing up the cash.

I don't remember the clamour from Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, AC Milan, Barca, Real, Juve, Inter, et al trying to hijack the transfer, though...

Come to think of it, there wasn't a great deal of interest in the lad on here until the armband incident.

I do love your attempts to belittle the gaffer at every turn.

It is HIGHLY amusing...

As are your immediate and predictable counter arguments.

I think overall Rafa has been poor, he has spent a motherload of cash and we should have a much better squad after 5 years than we have. He has however made a few very good signings amongst all the cr@p.

In any case I will see what he manages to do without the huge obstacle of Parry   , but of course this season he can just blame the financial crises can't he, very convenient.

[heimdall]

The big mistake, clearly Robbie Keane, that player never worth 20 million, his best singing Torres by far.
Anyway Liverpool can´t compete with Man City to sign Barry for 12 million, so it say it all.

I don't think we were after Barry, of course we could have found £12 million and Barry would surely have preferred coming to us, just doesn't make sense unless Rafa fecked up that is??

[bigmick]

The big mistake, clearly Robbie Keane, that player never worth 20 million, his best singing Torres by far.
Anyway Liverpool can´t compete with Man City to sign Barry for 12 million, so it say it all.

I don't think we were after Barry, of course we could have found £12 million and Barry would surely have preferred coming to us, just doesn't make sense unless Rafa fecked up that is??

By all accounts we tried to nick Barry at the elventh hour, but he fancied life at City more. It's surprising but hardly shocking when you consider how other home based players have been treated by the manager. Perhaps he gave Robbie Keane a ring, or Peter Crouch, or Craig Bellamy, or Jermaine Pennant. Who knows?

I said at the time though it wouldn't be too long before British players would begin to think twice before coming, and it appears to have started. Unless we make some changes to our methodology, I wouldn't have thought top grade young players will be clamouring to come to Liverpool either. We haven't really got a long recent history of giving them masses of opportunities, or of actually developing top-class players.

Next season is big in many ways.

[stmichael]

very good in terms of centre backs and central midfielders. however his record of signing wide players, fullbacks and strikers have left a lot to be desired.

the difference is, we can't afford to make expensive mistakes like chelsea and united can. i mean if united got rid of berbatov this summer they'd just go out and spend £25m on another striker and nothing would be said.

i mean rafa has brought in loads of fullbacks over his five years here and a lot haven't made it. however the transfer outlay on these players has been pretty low. compare this with chelsea who have already spunked £40m on right backs in bosingwa, ferreira, boulahrouz, ben haim ect and are now looking at spending another £15m on glen johnson who they sold for £6m a few years back.

[GYBS]

The big mistake, clearly Robbie Keane, that player never worth 20 million, his best singing Torres by far.
Anyway Liverpool can´t compete with Man City to sign Barry for 12 million, so it say it all.

I don't think we were after Barry, of course we could have found £12 million and Barry would surely have preferred coming to us, just doesn't make sense unless Rafa fecked up that is??

By all accounts we tried to nick Barry at the elventh hour, but he fancied life at City more. It's surprising but hardly shocking when you consider how other home based players have been treated by the manager. Perhaps he gave Robbie Keane a ring, or Peter Crouch, or Craig Bellamy, or Jermaine Pennant. Who knows?

I said at the time though it wouldn't be too long before British players would begin to think twice before coming, and it appears to have started. Unless we make some changes to our methodology, I wouldn't have thought top grade young players will be clamouring to come to Liverpool either. We haven't really got a long recent history of giving them masses of opportunities, or of actually developing top-class players.

Next season is big in many ways.

From what i understand there was never any approach for Barry this summer . Also what do crouch bellamy and pennant have in common ? They were never good enough as starting players for liverpool and there isnt many englsih players that are any better than we have - maybe Johnson . Thats not including the obvious ones we cant get ie lampard,rio,terry,rooney

[Lando_Griffin]

Why is it people always have to have a reason to pop off at him? Especially with whats going on right now, people need to be a bit more posative. We have a world class striker in Torres and we almost won the league. Enough said. Have some faith people. Rafa is having to compete with the rest with half the budget.

But it didnt take a genius to spot that torres was world class mate, the thanks for signing him should go to the owners for coughing up the cash.

I don't remember the clamour from Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, AC Milan, Barca, Real, Juve, Inter, et al trying to hijack the transfer, though...

Come to think of it, there wasn't a great deal of interest in the lad on here until the armband incident.

I do love your attempts to belittle the gaffer at every turn.

It is HIGHLY amusing...

As are your immediate and predictable counter arguments.

I think overall Rafa has been poor, he has spent a motherload of cash and we should have a much better squad after 5 years than we have. He has however made a few very good signings amongst all the cr@p.

In any case I will see what he manages to do without the huge obstacle of Parry   , but of course this season he can just blame the financial crises can't he, very convenient.

Be quiet, love - men are talking...

A "shedload" of money - I take it you've forgotten that every single position has needed replacements/improvements?

It's not like we had the luxury of just adding 4 £30m players to the side - it was a total rebuild.

Realistically, there's JC and Gerrard still worthy of a 1st team place from that which Rafa inherited.

Both are extremely good players who (certainly in Stevie's case) would walk into and improve any team in the World.

Unlike the Mancs, who bought an 18 year old for £30m some 5 years ago, a 23 year old centreback for £30m 7 years ago, a flop for £28.1m nearly 8 years ago, £18m on a crock midfielder, to add to the £18.6m Carrick and £18m Anderson.
Let's not forget the £30.75m spent on Berbatov, either.

So - that's about £175m on 2 strikers, a defender and 3 midfielders still at the club. One of the £18m midfielders is there soley as a bench-warmer, one was sold after a season at a loss of circa £14m, and the £30.75m striker can't buy a goal.

This is all despite having the "freebie" talent of Scholes and Giggs.

Funny how history skews people's view of things...

(Cue the "ah, but Fergie won this and that...". (The funny part is, these are the same people who'll in the next breath try and argue that money makes no difference... ))


Dear oh dear.

[HacksawJimDuggin]

He can only be so good given how financially gagged and bound he is at the moment!!!

[Owzat]

Ok Lando, let's compare the "best XIs" from when when Rafa took over and now.

GK Dudek vs REINA : Reina comfortably (0.0-1.0)
RB Finnan vs Arbeloa : nothing much in it (0.5-1.5)
LB Riise vs AURELIO : just about in favour of Aurelio (1.0-2.5)
CB CARRAGHER vs Skrtel : Carra winning it (2.0-2.5)
CB HYYPIA vs Agger : close, Sami wins it just (2.5-3.0)
RM Smicer vs KUYT : convert Kuyt wins easily (2.5-4.0)
LM Kewell vs RIERA : Riera not much to beat (2.5-5.0)
CM Hamann vs ALONSO : Xabi (3.0-6.0)
CM GERRARD vs Benayoun : no brainer, Gerrard has improved under Rafa though (4.0-6.0)
CF Owen vs Torres : would be close even if I gave it to Torres (4.5-6.5)
CF BAROS vs Babel : not ideal, but Baros (5.0-7.0)

It's difficult to compare a 4-4-2 with 4-3-3/4-5-1 so Mascherano had to be left out. It isn't meant to be a definitive comparison, but does highlight the main areas of improvement - Reina, Riera and Kuyt improving massively on Dudek, Kewell and Smicer (or on any GK, LM, or RM for years) Most of the other positions were pretty good when Rafa took over, you can't tell me Finnan, Riise, Carragher, Hyypia, Hamann, Gerrard and Owen made for a much weaker XI? That's seven, allowing for the switch to using a DM rather than a second CF. The last time we had two quality strikers on the books was Owen and Fowler before Fowler went to Leeds.

So while every position may have been improved, it wasn't like we started off with a side good enough to play in the conference and Rafa waved his magic wand to produce the team we see today. That squad Rafa won the Champions League with was mostly inherited, and Houllier managed 2nd once same as Rafa has in about the same period so the squad can't have been all that bad. And up until they were sold/left, Hyypia, Finnan, Riise and Hamann of those seven cited played important roles. Owen would have had he not been so quick out the door. Maybe Hamann has been replaced with arguably a superior model, but are Hyypia, Finnan and Riise that much worse than our current CB and FB options?

The problem for me is how much Rafa spends in trying to improve a position. Riera and Babel cost a combined £19.5m and neither is a certain starter at LM. He hasn't spend much on RB and it shows, he spent a lot on Dossena and that is still some way from a final solution. And how much has he spent "improving" strikers?

Bellamy £6m
Crouch £7m
Keane £20.3m
N'Gog £1.5m
Morientes £6.3m
Kuyt £10m (now a RM!)
Torres £21m

That's near £75m on strikers from those alone, don't think I've missed any with fees except you might label Babel and Luis Garcia as strikers which would add another £18m. We've a striker who is arguably/probably better than Owen was to show for all those signings, yes we recouped money, but in five years that hardly reflects someone who is great at signing players - got it right at the umpteenth attempt

[GYBS]

One point i will disagree with is the comparison between Owen and Torres - Nowhere near close - Torres is twice the striker Owen ever has been .

[heimdall]

Why is it people always have to have a reason to pop off at him? Especially with whats going on right now, people need to be a bit more posative. We have a world class striker in Torres and we almost won the league. Enough said. Have some faith people. Rafa is having to compete with the rest with half the budget.

But it didnt take a genius to spot that torres was world class mate, the thanks for signing him should go to the owners for coughing up the cash.

I don't remember the clamour from Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, AC Milan, Barca, Real, Juve, Inter, et al trying to hijack the transfer, though...

Come to think of it, there wasn't a great deal of interest in the lad on here until the armband incident.

I do love your attempts to belittle the gaffer at every turn.

It is HIGHLY amusing...

As are your immediate and predictable counter arguments.

I think overall Rafa has been poor, he has spent a motherload of cash and we should have a much better squad after 5 years than we have. He has however made a few very good signings amongst all the cr@p.

In any case I will see what he manages to do without the huge obstacle of Parry   , but of course this season he can just blame the financial crises can't he, very convenient.

Be quiet, love - men are talking...

A "shedload" of money - I take it you've forgotten that every single position has needed replacements/improvements?

It's not like we had the luxury of just adding 4 £30m players to the side - it was a total rebuild.

Realistically, there's JC and Gerrard still worthy of a 1st team place from that which Rafa inherited.

Both are extremely good players who (certainly in Stevie's case) would walk into and improve any team in the World.

Unlike the Mancs, who bought an 18 year old for £30m some 5 years ago, a 23 year old centreback for £30m 7 years ago, a flop for £28.1m nearly 8 years ago, £18m on a crock midfielder, to add to the £18.6m Carrick and £18m Anderson.
Let's not forget the £30.75m spent on Berbatov, either.

So - that's about £175m on 2 strikers, a defender and 3 midfielders still at the club. One of the £18m midfielders is there soley as a bench-warmer, one was sold after a season at a loss of circa £14m, and the £30.75m striker can't buy a goal.

This is all despite having the "freebie" talent of Scholes and Giggs.

Funny how history skews people's view of things...

(Cue the "ah, but Fergie won this and that...". (The funny part is, these are the same people who'll in the next breath try and argue that money makes no difference... ))


Dear oh dear.

To be honest I'm more shocked by your suggestion that Nanny and Ciggy aren't allowed to take part in this thread??

"men are talking", are you referring to yourself, please!     



Anyway can't be bothered to have this argument again there is no solution to it but needless to say Rafa has had enough money to build a top squad and has built a good team but lets see what he does this transfer period.

[heimdall]

One point i will disagree with is the comparison between Owen and Torres - Nowhere near close - Torres is twice the striker Owen ever has been .

hmm, I'm not so sure GYBS, Owen was pretty fecking amazing in his prime like his goals in the FA Cup final for example.

[GRAHAM01]

And how much has he spent "improving" strikers?

Bellamy £6m
Crouch £7m
Keane £20.3m
N'Gog £1.5m
Morientes £6.3m
Kuyt £10m (now a RM!)
Torres £21m

That's near £75m on strikers from those alone, don't think I've missed any with fees except you might label Babel and Luis Garcia as strikers which would add another £18m. We've a striker who is arguably/probably better than Owen was to show for all those signings, yes we recouped money, but in five years that hardly reflects someone who is great at signing players - got it right at the umpteenth attempt

just wanted to add something regarding the strikers you have spoken about and there cost

bells: was bought in for £6m and was sold for £7.5 althought not a great player for us he did an ok job and with the money gain not that bad of a buy

crouch: cost £7m and again ( some say not what we needed though i have to say i use to like him ) we then sold him for £11m again not bad buisness

keane: well there is not a great arguement with this one but we paid a reported £19m for him and he was not great, let us say then sold him back for a reported 15 plus some add on we might get? so a loss of what could be £4m whilst not good it is not as bad as many would have us believe

n'gog: cost £1.5m not shown us that he will be a great player but on the plus side he is young and if things do not improve i think we could get are money back on that one

mori: cost £6.3m and to be fair was poor but taken on due to his form before coming to us which i think most would have said wasn't to bad sold for £3m, so not the greatest of signings but who would have thought he would have flopped in that way

kuyt: cost £10m still here and not the prolific striker we wanted but has been worth what we paid (imo)

torres: the only thing i would put here is if we sold him now how much would we get??

so yes there was £75m spent but we have made back £37m to £40m which leave a little over £35m left spent

so we have torres,kuyt and n'gog for £35m i think we would get are money back on them if we were had to sale them and have extra left over not to shabby

this maybe a long winded way of doing it but just trying to point out although not all good signings, most have not turned out to be that bad

[bigmick]

From what i understand there was never any approach for Barry this summer . Also what do crouch bellamy and pennant have in common ? They were never good enough as starting players for liverpool and there isnt many englsih players that are any better than we have - maybe Johnson . Thats not including the obvious ones we cant get ie lampard,rio,terry,rooney

Couple of points here. "From what I understand" etc etc. Well other members of the forum who have a history of being on the money with claims about such things, say that we did launch an eleventh hour bid, so that'll do for me. Particularly when you also consider that we were prepared to offer 18 million quid for him a year ago, and that our two central midfielders are the subject of transfer speculation, I would be astounded if we hadn't got involved at 12 million. I think your "from what I understand" is a misunderstanding.

Crouch Bellamy and Pennant have little in common. One is a six feet seven centre forward, one is a midget between the lines player, and one a surly little right winger. All of them at times showed excellent form for Liverpool, as did Keane (don't know why you left him out, you don't normally ).

I suppose if you pressed me for a connection, I'd go with this one. One found the form of his life and was successfully rotated oput of it, one was rotated on each occasion he managed to score two goals in one match, one was rotated out of position onto the left wing for much of his time at the club, and one was jettisoned to the extent that we sent him out on loan six months before his contract expired. All of them were probably not good enough for a regular starting booth in a title winning team, and all were signed by Rafa*. Maybe that's it, the last one.


*I should add in the interests of fairness that some fans think that Rafa didn't sign Keane, Rick Parry did.

[GYBS]

My god imagine you bringing rotation into it - how boring .1. When was bellamy and pennant ever excellent ? Pennant played well during a three month period , bellamy maybe had the odd decent game 2. Crouch - is he better than Torres ? Did he link better with Torres than Gerrard ? Im sure the answer is no to both those questions - solution = back up , did he want that = no , was he offered a new contract = yes , did he turn it down = yes , did he want to leave  = yes so off goes crouch . 3. Keane - havent mentioned him but will state my point again about him = not good enough , he leaves gerrard goes back to playing behind Torres = jackpot .

Oh little bit of info for you - I know someone who works at villa(and no not a tea lady) and he has confirmed it to me that City were the only team who made any approach for barry . No 11th hour bid from anyone .

[bigmick]

My god imagine you bringing rotation into it - how boring .1. When was bellamy and pennant ever excellent ? Pennant played well during a three month period , bellamy maybe had the odd decent game 2. Crouch - is he better than Torres ? Did he link better with Torres than Gerrard ? Im sure the answer is no to both those questions - solution = back up , did he want that = no , was he offered a new contract = yes , did he turn it down = yes , did he want to leave  = yes so off goes crouch . 3. Keane - havent mentioned him but will state my point again about him = not good enough , he leaves gerrard goes back to playing behind Torres = jackpot .

Oh little bit of info for you - I know someone who works at villa(and no not a tea lady) and he has confirmed it to me that City were the only team who made any approach for barry . No 11th hour bid from anyone .

What a strange post