Liverpool FC Forum

[maguskwt]

i agree with what some posters have said about our formation contributing to our defensive frailty.
because we often employ a `full court press` high up the pitch there are going to be times when teams catch us on the break but rather than change our formation to a more negative one i`d rather keep the formation and change our defenders.
we need players at the back that have the ability to `scramble` and that as a rule of thumb usually means players with pace.
the best defenders i`ve seen in terms of dealing with fast breaks have been players like mark lawrenson, kevin ratcliffe and des walker (in his early days), they were all very quick and not only did they have the pace to catch even the quickest forwards from behind, if they were bypassed by a through ball they had the pace to turn around and quickly get goal side again, players often had to beat mark lawrenson 2 or 3 times in the same move because he was so quick at getting back goal side. his recovery tackles were legendary.
when someone goes past one of our players at the moment (carragher, lucas, gerrard etc) unless they run into traffic they are gone, it`s adios amigo. the only defender we have that can get back goal side again after being beaten is enrique.
another thing having quick CB`s does is allow you to hold a high line, that way you arent dropping off and inviting high balls into you area.
i think the key to next season isnt our attack but our defence, in this system our defenders are looking more and more like square pegs in round holes, it will be interesting to see who we bring in during the summer.

In a 4-3-3, everyone needs to be more dynamic. 4-3-3 does not have natural width, as a result the full backs/ wing backs usually end up providing the widths. The reason we are so exposed defensively now is not only down to the defenders. We do not have a very strong AM or CM. According to BR's system, he usually plays with 2 holding midfielders and one more attacking midfielder. Right now it seems to be like Lucas and Gerrard are more withdrawn midfielders and Henderson is a more "advance" midfielder. However, Henderson does not have the game to dictate play on his own yet. As a result, Gerrard is assisting him with the offensive duties. Gerrard on the other hand no longer has the motor he had last time, often leaving Lucas alone to plug the numerous holes. Lucas, even though a competent DM/ holding midfielder, is not the fastest one. He is not like Mascherano. As a result the opposing team can bypass lucas easily with a couple of passes. Then comes my biggest disappointment in terms of defensive capability, Johnson. He was one of our best performers in the first half of the season, but now he is a defensive liability. As he goes up to provide width, he often leaves his side exposed. He is terrible at tracking back. And he is terrible at spotting danger, always reacting one step slower than the opposing team. As you rightly mentioned only enrique can balance the defence and offence in this system. So our defensive frailty is not only down to the defenders, it starts from the system, to having one of our CB's having a ***** poor form (Skrtle), to having one our FB's having a ***** poor defensive form (Johnson), to not having the proper personnel for one of our 3 CM places. If one of these is corrected than it wouldn't be so bad. But now all these 3 areas are problem areas for us.

[Basil]

i agree with what some posters have said about our formation contributing to our defensive frailty.
because we often employ a `full court press` high up the pitch there are going to be times when teams catch us on the break but rather than change our formation to a more negative one i`d rather keep the formation and change our defenders.
we need players at the back that have the ability to `scramble` and that as a rule of thumb usually means players with pace.
the best defenders i`ve seen in terms of dealing with fast breaks have been players like mark lawrenson, kevin ratcliffe and des walker (in his early days), they were all very quick and not only did they have the pace to catch even the quickest forwards from behind, if they were bypassed by a through ball they had the pace to turn around and quickly get goal side again, players often had to beat mark lawrenson 2 or 3 times in the same move because he was so quick at getting back goal side. his recovery tackles were legendary.
when someone goes past one of our players at the moment (carragher, lucas, gerrard etc) unless they run into traffic they are gone, it`s adios amigo. the only defender we have that can get back goal side again after being beaten is enrique.
another thing having quick CB`s does is allow you to hold a high line, that way you arent dropping off and inviting high balls into you area.
i think the key to next season isnt our attack but our defence, in this system our defenders are looking more and more like square pegs in round holes, it will be interesting to see who we bring in during the summer.

In a 4-3-3, everyone needs to be more dynamic. 4-3-3 does not have natural width, as a result the full backs/ wing backs usually end up providing the widths. The reason we are so exposed defensively now is not only down to the defenders. We do not have a very strong AM or CM. According to BR's system, he usually plays with 2 holding midfielders and one more attacking midfielder. Right now it seems to be like Lucas and Gerrard are more withdrawn midfielders and Henderson is a more "advance" midfielder. However, Henderson does not have the game to dictate play on his own yet. As a result, Gerrard is assisting him with the offensive duties. Gerrard on the other hand no longer has the motor he had last time, often leaving Lucas alone to plug the numerous holes. Lucas, even though a competent DM/ holding midfielder, is not the fastest one. He is not like Mascherano. As a result the opposing team can bypass lucas easily with a couple of passes. Then comes my biggest disappointment in terms of defensive capability, Johnson. He was one of our best performers in the first half of the season, but now he is a defensive liability. As he goes up to provide width, he often leaves his side exposed. He is terrible at tracking back. And he is terrible at spotting danger, always reacting one step slower than the opposing team. As you rightly mentioned only enrique can balance the defence and offence in this system. So our defensive frailty is not only down to the defenders, it starts from the system, to having one of our CB's having a ***** poor form (Skrtle), to having one our FB's having a ***** poor defensive form (Johnson), to not having the proper personnel for one of our 3 CM places. If one of these is corrected than it wouldn't be so bad. But now all these 3 areas are problem areas for us.

I agree with both those posts but we've introduced a new system and it'll take a couple of seasons to get the right players to match the system we want to play. It's not easy to reduce the wage bill and introduce new players who will improve the squad. It hasn't helped that Gerrard is starting to show his age and Carragher is in his final season.

Johnson is a fantactic player going forward but I do wonder about his (and our other defenders) positioning at times, I was always told to get between the attacker and the goals but they sometimes seem to be completely on the wrong side.

If we believe some of the names that have been mentioned lately, I'm sure we are now looking almost worldwide for 2 or 3 quality players that will fit straight into this squad and take us to the next level. With a good pre-season and further improvements from the Coutinho and Sturridge and even the likes of Allen and Borini we should be a lot better and a lot more consistent next year.

[Penguins]

And getting 2-3 world class players is going to be easy with maybe no european football and cheap for that matter.
Those kinds of players also cost 20-30 million easily and I don't see us spending anyhwere close to those amounts.

[stmichael]

Carragher and Nevile were spot on last night. The way we defend is just asking for trouble. It's a mentality thing as much as an issue of personnel.

We drop far too deep and just invite pressure. We did it at Norwich and got away with it in the 2nd half. Last night it cost us dearly. Sakho and Skrtel have had 1 clean sheet in the 17 games they have started together.

For all his deficiencies, our defensive record is much better with Agger in the side.

[Santa]

Carragher and Nevile were spot on last night. The way we defend is just asking for trouble. It's a mentality thing as much as an issue of personnel.

We drop far too deep and just invite pressure. We did it at Norwich and got away with it in the 2nd half. Last night it cost us dearly. Sakho and Skrtel have had 1 clean sheet in the 17 games they have started together.

For all his deficiencies, our defensive record is much better with Agger in the side.

Spot on...we sat deep and invite pressure instead of regrouping. A leader and calm mind was needed but everyone panicked. And after their first or second goal, why didn't Brendan reacted by bringing on Agger? Watching the game live I was expecting a 3rd goal because we keep losing procession and they just piled on the pressure. Imagine a team like Palace who until yesterday had the WORST scoring record in the league can give us a 3 goals head start and put us out of our misery, what chance we have against a better team?

Not only we need a world class defender with pace to burn, we badly need one with leadership quality on the field as well.

[jacdaniel]

The defending is bad, but its the defending as a team and not just the personnel at the back. 
Johnson and Flanno are clearly asked to play high up the pitch.  Our midfield do the same. 

It helps us score lots of goals but the down side is that we are very open.

[C-R]

Ok, thinking outside the box here, just a thought so dont have a go at me... but what about dropping Gerrard into the back 4 with another CB with pace alongside him and then someone more youthful to take over his current role, if not Hendo or Allen then perhaps someone new like one of the german wonder kids or the likes of Isco etc..

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

The defending is bad, but its the defending as a team and not just the personnel at the back. 
Johnson and Flanno are clearly asked to play high up the pitch.  Our midfield do the same. 

It helps us score lots of goals but the down side is that we are very open.

I think the style of footy we play requires us to have very athletic midfielders, we only play with 3 midfielders anyway (instead of the traditional 4) so they already have a lot on their plate but on top of that our matches have a tendency to develop into basketball games (end to end) which are exceptionally draining for midfielders, especially when the 'court' is 100m long.
A pairing like Gerrard and Lucas is almost the last CM pairing you'd want when games become so stretched and let's face it it's no surprise that we often look all over the place when the basketball begins, they just haven't got the legs to support the attack one minute and then get back to support the defence the next.
I think if we find a couple of midfielders like Hendo and Joe Allen but with more ability on the ball we'd be a hell of a side.
I think if we sort out our midfield you'd find that our defence would improve as well.

[stmichael]

The defending is bad, but its the defending as a team and not just the personnel at the back. 
Johnson and Flanno are clearly asked to play high up the pitch.  Our midfield do the same. 

It helps us score lots of goals but the down side is that we are very open.

I think the style of footy we play requires us to have very athletic midfielders, we only play with 3 midfielders anyway (instead of the traditional 4) so they already have a lot on their plate but on top of that our matches have a tendency to develop into basketball games (end to end) which are exceptionally draining for midfielders, especially when the 'court' is 100m long.
A pairing like Gerrard and Lucas is almost the last CM pairing you'd want when games become so stretched and let's face it it's no surprise that we often look all over the place when the basketball begins, they just haven't got the legs to support the attack one minute and then get back to support the defence the next.
I think if we find a couple of midfielders like Hendo and Joe Allen but with more ability on the ball we'd be a hell of a side.
I think if we sort out our midfield you'd find that our defence would improve as well.

It doesn't help that we have a keeper who doesn't like to play as a sweeper, our forward players don't really track back and without Henderson we don't have a lot of mobility in the middle of the park. You can only really keep a high line if you put pressure on the ball and stop the crosses and through balls otherwise teams will cut you open.

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

Exactly Saint, as AVB found out at Spurs (and to a lesser extent Chelsea) if you play a high line but don't put any pressure on the ball then you're asking for trouble, but that IMO is why our defence is always looking to drop deep, it's because our midfield doesn't put any pressure on the ball, in recent weeks our CM's have actually been standing right next to our defenders playing almost as auxiliary CB's, opposition players can waltz right up to the edge of our area before a midfielder will go out to engage them.
We need midfielders who are athletic enough to play high up the pitch at a high tempo, we should be hunting in packs and engaging teams at the edge of their area not ours.
I actually don't think our defenders are that bad as individual players, it's just that the system isn't doing them any favours at the moment, our midfielders aren't putting up a defensive screen infront of them, our CM's are retreating to the last line of defence beside the defenders and inviting pressure onto us.

[Doeboy]

We need a leader in defense. I said this when Carra retired. Sakho, Skrtel, Agger and Toure are the kind of defenders you play alongside an organiser. We need someone in the Terry, Kompany etc mould or someone who can grow into that kind of player. Carra was spot on with his comments. I would love to see him added to the coaching staff. Has so much to offer.

Yesterday, we were fine when Chamakh was up front for Palace and happy to push up because he hasn't got the pace to get in behind. As soon as Gayle came on, it was as though our defenders thought, 'OK this kid is a different proposition, nippier along the ground, only 15 mins left, lets play safe and go deeper so there's no space in behind for him to run into'. The worst thing you can do against a Tony Pulis side is defend deep and get pinned back, especially towards the end of a game when your tiring both physically and mentally

[Doeboy]

I think our midfielders have generally been good at pressing and put a shift in, especially Hendo and we missed him yesterday. We play a very expansive, fluid style of football and it has been a joy to watch and we've consistently played the best football in the league this season

However sometimes, we need to get the balance right and there will be times during games where we need to be more compact and keep shape better. All about game management and as I've said before, Rodgers is a young manager and the first time he has been in this position as well as the players so the experience will hold them in good stead

[ycsatbjywtbiastkamb]

We need a leader in defense. I said this when Carra retired. Sakho, Skrtel, Agger and Toure are the kind of defenders you play alongside an organiser. We need someone in the Terry, Kompany etc mould or someone who can grow into that kind of player. Carra was spot on with his comments. I would love to see him added to the coaching staff. Has so much to offer.

Yesterday, we were fine when Chamakh was up front for Palace and happy to push up because he hasn't got the pace to get in behind. As soon as Gayle came on, it was as though our defenders thought, 'OK this kid is a different proposition, nippier along the ground, only 15 mins left, lets play safe and go deeper so there's no space in behind for him to run into'. The worst thing you can do against a Tony Pulis side is defend deep and get pinned back, especially towards the end of a game when your tiring both physically and mentally

It's down to the midfield IMO mate, look at those goals yesterday, for their first a player takes a shot from 25-30 yards out in a pretty central position and somehow it's left to our right back to close him down, where the f##k was the midfield?
Their second was down to a fast break from one of our corners, we just weren't athletic enough to get back in numbers and for their third Skrtel is left with a 2 on 1 situation at the edge of our box, Sakho to be fair to him was marking another forward but the midfield screen protecting the back 4 went AWOL again.
The defence is carrying the can but no team defends with just 4 players, defending is a team effort.
Personally I'd like to see us buy a big physical DM in the Wanyama or Yaya Toure mould, we are weak as pi$$ defensively in that area just in front of the back 4, Gerrard is superb on the ball but he's not exactly a Desailly when it comes to shielding the defence.

[Scottbot]

We need a leader in defense. I said this when Carra retired. Sakho, Skrtel, Agger and Toure are the kind of defenders you play alongside an organiser. We need someone in the Terry, Kompany etc mould or someone who can grow into that kind of player. Carra was spot on with his comments. I would love to see him added to the coaching staff. Has so much to offer.

Yesterday, we were fine when Chamakh was up front for Palace and happy to push up because he hasn't got the pace to get in behind. As soon as Gayle came on, it was as though our defenders thought, 'OK this kid is a different proposition, nippier along the ground, only 15 mins left, lets play safe and go deeper so there's no space in behind for him to run into'. The worst thing you can do against a Tony Pulis side is defend deep and get pinned back, especially towards the end of a game when your tiring both physically and mentally

It's down to the midfield IMO mate, look at those goals yesterday, for their first a player takes a shot from 25-30 yards out in a pretty central position and somehow it's left to our right back to close him down, where the f##k was the midfield?
Their second was down to a fast break from one of our corners, we just weren't athletic enough to get back in numbers and for their third Skrtel is left with a 2 on 1 situation at the edge of our box, Sakho to be fair to him was marking another forward but the midfield screen protecting the back 4 went AWOL again.
The defence is carrying the can but no team defends with just 4 players, defending is a team effort.
Personally I'd like to see us buy a big physical DM in the Wanyama or Yaya Toure mould, we are weak as pi$$ defensively in that area just in front of the back 4, Gerrard is superb on the ball but he's not exactly a Desailly when it comes to shielding the defence.

Pretty much bang on mate, we have really missed Henderson's athleticism, workrate and fitness the past three games. Particularly in a diamond formation where were asking to two outside middies to get up and down as well as covering wide areas. Lucas clearly lacks the mobility or pace to play In This set up so it's crucial that we bring in a player with covering speed and a good engine who is also technically able to do what is asked of him. Only problem is these sort of players cost a few quid. You only have to look at the good ones out there, Pogba will cost somebody 40 million plus and the chavs got themselves a hell of a player in Matic but again, big price tag. I don't know the market so well but a big athletic DM who can also play is a must.

[damjan193]

I'm completely with Yakka on this one, as I've already said a few times. Don't think that we necessarily need a great tackling DM, but we need someone athletic and with a good engine who would constantly track opposition players. I'll mention Rakitic again as a suitable candidate. We may not have the best defenders but I don't think that it's their fault.

Carra made another interesting comment yesterday about our defense, something that I've been talking about for a while as well. It was about how much do we actually concentrate on our defending. He was saying that even when he was still around, the main focus on our training sessions was on moving the ball around, keeping possession, applying high pressure etc, while we concentrated very little on actual defending. He said that because of this, "the defenders don't even think like defenders", thus the reason why our defense has looked so disorganized when under pressure. I agree with Brendan, a few individual mistakes have costed us a few times this season, but he needs to realize that overally, the problem is deeper than just the individual ability of our defenders and that the problem may be with him and his staff.