Liverpool FC Forum

[Emerald Red]

Ah, but parley with the Devil and ye get burned. Blair got into bed with Bush on that one and more fool him. The hypocrisy of such things beggars belief.

ER I would say 98% of England didnt want to go to war in Iraq mate.

I wouldn't disagree. Not the people's fault, really. It's just a shame that the media is kept silent over some of the things that go on over there. If there was more awareness, people would care more.

[aCe']

As long as Obama doesn't pull out of Iraq too early, and just for the sake of it, I am confident that the Iraqi people will be better off 10, 20, 30+ years time than had we not gone in.

excellent point.. gotta agree with that...
The States went to Iraq for all the wrong reasons (or so many would say) but end of the day its gonna be better for the Iraqi people in the not so long run..

[Emerald Red]

As long as Obama doesn't pull out of Iraq too early, and just for the sake of it, I am confident that the Iraqi people will be better off 10, 20, 30+ years time than had we not gone in.

You reckon?

[Number 9]

As long as Obama doesn't pull out of Iraq too early, and just for the sake of it, I am confident that the Iraqi people will be better off 10, 20, 30+ years time than had we not gone in.

You reckon?

I'm past giving a fuc'k about Iraq,although I do appreciate our armed forces!
I'd much prefer Bush and Blair had concentrated on cleaning up their own back yards but thats a pointless wish now.Our economies are in sh'it street.perhaps if the governments had put as much effort into their own as they did abroad something could have been done...factories and businesses closing everywhere.Old folk with no money to eat and heat,people getting paid off,everything going up in price!
Every bullet or bomb spent in a foreign war is money robbed from taxpayers that could have been of use now.
As for the oil debate thats been had on here before.I really,no matter what people will say believe they went to Iraq with a legitimate humanitarian agenda as opposed to wanting oil.
If they did go for oil,they got that wrong too cause we are still being done on that as well!!

[neil]

I think the west hoped to attract the extremists from all over the world to Iraq for the jihad war, it pretty muched worked for a while.

[Number 9]

I think the west hoped to attract the extremists from all over the world to Iraq for the jihad war, it pretty muched worked for a while.

Yeah then they caught on that it was a better deal to come here,claim asylum,get a free house and benefits and cause all sorts of sh'ite here!

[Emerald Red]

As long as Obama doesn't pull out of Iraq too early, and just for the sake of it, I am confident that the Iraqi people will be better off 10, 20, 30+ years time than had we not gone in.

You reckon?

I'm past giving a fuc'k about Iraq,although I do appreciate our armed forces!
I'd much prefer Bush and Blair had concentrated on cleaning up their own back yards but thats a pointless wish now.Our economies are in sh'it street.perhaps if the governments had put as much effort into their own as they did abroad something could have been done...factories and businesses closing everywhere.Old folk with no money to eat and heat,people getting paid off,everything going up in price!
Every bullet or bomb spent in a foreign war is money robbed from taxpayers that could have been of use now.
As for the oil debate thats been had on here before.I really,no matter what people will say believe they went to Iraq with a legitimate humanitarian agenda as opposed to wanting oil.
If they did go for oil,they got that wrong too cause we are still being done on that as well!!

I have my own theory on what the whole thing was about in the first place, but honestly, you do not want to hear it.

[Number 9]

As long as Obama doesn't pull out of Iraq too early, and just for the sake of it, I am confident that the Iraqi people will be better off 10, 20, 30+ years time than had we not gone in.

You reckon?

I'm past giving a fuc'k about Iraq,although I do appreciate our armed forces!
I'd much prefer Bush and Blair had concentrated on cleaning up their own back yards but thats a pointless wish now.Our economies are in sh'it street.perhaps if the governments had put as much effort into their own as they did abroad something could have been done...factories and businesses closing everywhere.Old folk with no money to eat and heat,people getting paid off,everything going up in price!
Every bullet or bomb spent in a foreign war is money robbed from taxpayers that could have been of use now.
As for the oil debate thats been had on here before.I really,no matter what people will say believe they went to Iraq with a legitimate humanitarian agenda as opposed to wanting oil.
If they did go for oil,they got that wrong too cause we are still being done on that as well!!

I have my own theory on what the whole thing was about in the first place, but honestly, you do not want to hear it.

Go ahead!

I just think people get to paranoid though.I know Blair and Bush are not whiter than white but i just cant comprehend that oil was the only purpose of the venture!
Blair knew he was nailing his own coffin sending troops there,i refuse to believe that any elected leader would go to war just for that this day in age!
Also i know politicians are a breed apart from normal folk mostly but I dont think Blair is a bad person...lets face it you'd need to be pretty much a kunt to send thousands of young men to war for just oil.Saddam,his sons and henchmen were doing some pretty sadistic things to innocent people.Shredding them alive,letting women get eaten alive by starving dogs,torturing,maiming just because they did not comply with his regime.Something did need done.
The problem is now,that the people that went "to help" are now resesnted by those that welcomed them first.They are unwelcome guests,people have turned against them.
Just like here only on a larger scale.Republicans welcomed the British here with open arms,but very soon turned against them.30 years of bloodshed and only lately they have realised that talking is the only way forward!
The war in Iraq is impossible to win.No army can take on terrorists who are employing tactics such as roadside bombs or suicide attacks.Yes there are some gun battles,but every Iraqi they shoot is someones dad,son,uncle,brother,friend etc.The mourning soon turns to hate and anger then they pick up the gun/bomb.By killing terrorists there they are making a bigger monster.Afganistan is exactly the same!
Waste of time being there and they know it.The main problem now is how do they pull out without loosing face and looking like they have been defeated!
I'd say thats a major factor as to why they are still there!

[Bad Bob]

You're right, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the colonialists but that doesn't mean that how they went about things was right.  I and many others (including your good self) have benefited from their actions but at great human cost.  I find it important not to lose sight of that fact. 

Equally, its not always one way traffic and negative impacts that the Colonialist had in History. I'm bored to death of hearing how the Brits, Spanish, Portuguese and a few other European nations caused such inhumane acts in times gone by. I'm not just fed up with you, but the general attitude towards colonialists in general. I wouldnt expect you're good self to be constantly reminded and told how bad you're European ancestors were in those days, as you're not European.

In certain parts of the World Bob people have lost sight of the good the Colonialists brought to certain shores.

I'm sure you would of heard of the 'Stolen Generation' here in Australia. It has been Dispised by many from around the World looking in, and no doubt at the time it was morally wrong for the British to take young Aboriginals away from their families. It was wrong, but I actually know an Aboriginal woman who was one of these 'Stolen persons. She works in a bank, was brought up with Love and Education, she Loves her White parents like they were her own. She visited the site, r the village she was taken from in the outback somewhere and told me ....... " I'm glad I dont live here, I consider myself lucky and I'm glad I was brought up in a family who loved and educated me. I couldnt live here" she said. 

Now while there are many Aboriginals who still resent what happened back then (which is fair enough) many also appreciated the missionaries from London Church and things like that, which people often leave out. The image of painting the Colonialists as tyrants and dictators (which they were in many cases) always seems to lose sight of the good they did to.[/quote]
Fair enough, Bam--it wasn't all negative and circumstances very from place to place and across time periods.  In Eastern Canada, for instance, native peoples were treated with a certain amount of respect by both French and British administrators and settlers, and the British Crown insisted on signing formal treaties to acquire their lands.  In British Columbia (west coast of Canada), on the other hand, the British settlers decided not to engage in a formal treaty process and simply herded natives onto reserves through coercion or threat of force.  The result?  Largely peaceful relations between natives and whites in Eastern Canada and a series of native protests and lawsuits in BC, which has severely come back to bite them in the a.rse once the Canadian Supreme Court determined that the natives very much had a case.  A bit of a ramble but a point to say that things worked out differently in different parts of the empire and that not all exchanges were bad.  My beef is only with those who won't acknowledge that any harm was caused by colonialism or who insist that it was all rather unfortunate (it was) but was nonetheless unavoidable (it was not).  BTW, I may not be European but I'm of European ancestry (Scottish, Irish and Swiss-German) and that means that, when the native vs. white debate gets revved up in Canada, I'm one of the ones with the bad ancestors, just like you.

[maypaxvobiscum]

death toll up to..160 at least 400 injured.
stand off still going on in the Taj hotel.
FBI team of negotiators and forensic experts have been sent. there are more links to Pakistan.

[metalhead]

death toll up to..160 at least 400 injured.
stand off still going on in the Taj hotel.
FBI team of negotiators and forensic experts have been sent. there are more links to Pakistan.

what do you mean by stand off?

[LFC2007]

... when the native vs. white debate gets revved up in Canada, I'm one of the ones with the bad ancestors, just like you.

   

[Number 9]

You're right, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the colonialists but that doesn't mean that how they went about things was right.  I and many others (including your good self) have benefited from their actions but at great human cost.  I find it important not to lose sight of that fact. 

Equally, its not always one way traffic and negative impacts that the Colonialist had in History. I'm bored to death of hearing how the Brits, Spanish, Portuguese and a few other European nations caused such inhumane acts in times gone by. I'm not just fed up with you, but the general attitude towards colonialists in general. I wouldnt expect you're good self to be constantly reminded and told how bad you're European ancestors were in those days, as you're not European.

In certain parts of the World Bob people have lost sight of the good the Colonialists brought to certain shores.

I'm sure you would of heard of the 'Stolen Generation' here in Australia. It has been Dispised by many from around the World looking in, and no doubt at the time it was morally wrong for the British to take young Aboriginals away from their families. It was wrong, but I actually know an Aboriginal woman who was one of these 'Stolen persons. She works in a bank, was brought up with Love and Education, she Loves her White parents like they were her own. She visited the site, r the village she was taken from in the outback somewhere and told me ....... " I'm glad I dont live here, I consider myself lucky and I'm glad I was brought up in a family who loved and educated me. I couldnt live here" she said. 

Now while there are many Aboriginals who still resent what happened back then (which is fair enough) many also appreciated the missionaries from London Church and things like that, which people often leave out. The image of painting the Colonialists as tyrants and dictators (which they were in many cases) always seems to lose sight of the good they did to.

Fair enough, Bam--it wasn't all negative and circumstances very from place to place and across time periods.  In Eastern Canada, for instance, native peoples were treated with a certain amount of respect by both French and British administrators and settlers, and the British Crown insisted on signing formal treaties to acquire their lands.  In British Columbia (west coast of Canada), on the other hand, the British settlers decided not to engage in a formal treaty process and simply herded natives onto reserves through coercion or threat of force.  The result?  Largely peaceful relations between natives and whites in Eastern Canada and a series of native protests and lawsuits in BC, which has severely come back to bite them in the a.rse once the Canadian Supreme Court determined that the natives very much had a case.  A bit of a ramble but a point to say that things worked out differently in different parts of the empire and that not all exchanges were bad.  My beef is only with those who won't acknowledge that any harm was caused by colonialism or who insist that it was all rather unfortunate (it was) but was nonetheless unavoidable (it was not).  BTW, I may not be European but I'm of European ancestry (Scottish, Irish and Swiss-German) and that means that, when the native vs. white debate gets revved up in Canada, I'm one of the ones with the bad ancestors, just like you. [/quote]
My god Bob,you are a mongeral mate!
Scottish Irish and Swiss German!


Its funny though cause we traced our family back and we were solely from the UK(even before it was UK)
Ulster,English and Scottish,some ancestors lived on the Isle of Skye..But once we got back far enough (I dont know how they done it)We realized that one frenchmans legover on a trip to England centuries ago was responsible for our whole family...
Our surname originated from De Courcy from Normandy!
People were able to show us a direct bloodline back centuries..amazing!

It puts a funny context on your existence..If that French guy had not had a on foreign soil centuries ago(probably being unfaithful to his wife) My family would not be here!

[Number 9]

death toll up to..160 at least 400 injured.
stand off still going on in the Taj hotel.
FBI team of negotiators and forensic experts have been sent. there are more links to Pakistan.

Thanks Reuters!

We dont have TVs here

[maypaxvobiscum]

death toll up to..160 at least 400 injured.
stand off still going on in the Taj hotel.
FBI team of negotiators and forensic experts have been sent. there are more links to Pakistan.

Thanks Reuters!

We dont have TVs here

 
umm Metalhead, a stand off as in they are still fighting inside the hotel.