Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:04 am

And God help us when JC retires.

No import will offer what he does.

by **JC_81** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:26 am

Just been reading through all the posts on Carra here and I agree with a lot of it. Basically he doesn't have the technical ability of a Ferdinand or a Woodgate, but he is a better out-and-out defender whose dedication to the cause makes him immense for Liverpool. And I agree I wouldn't swap him for anyone. Since he switched to centre-half at the start of last season you could count the number of bad games he's had on one hand.

But I think people are missing the crucial thing here. Central defence is a partnership. You could have 2 of the best centre backs in the world, but if there is no understanding there, they can be made to look average. This is what happened to Hyypia when he was forced to play a season with Biscan as his partner under Houllier. People thought Hyypia had lost it, when in fact he was made to look bad because he had a midfielder trying to play centre half beside him.

Henchoz was a good player at Blackburn, but excellent for us beside Hyypia. He hasn't been nearly as good since he left us, he couldn't even get a game at Celtic.

My point is that a good partnership, ie Henchoz-Hyypia or Carra-Hyypia is the key. In fact Hyypia is so good at winning everything in the air and with his positional play that it must be easy to play alongside him. I would say Hyypia makes a very good player alongside him look top class.

Carragher has been immense for us over the last few seasons, but Hyypia is equally, if not more, important. If this Agger kid is in the same mould as Hyypia then he's learning from the best example.

by **JBG** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 10:40 am

john craig wrote:Just been reading through all the posts on Carra here and I agree with a lot of it. Basically he doesn't have the technical ability of a Ferdinand or a Woodgate, but he is a better out-and-out defender whose dedication to the cause makes him immense for Liverpool. And I agree I wouldn't swap him for anyone. Since he switched to centre-half at the start of last season you could count the number of bad games he's had on one hand.

But I think people are missing the crucial thing here. Central defence is a partnership. You could have 2 of the best centre backs in the world, but if there is no understanding there, they can be made to look average. This is what happened to Hyypia when he was forced to play a season with Biscan as his partner under Houllier. People thought Hyypia had lost it, when in fact he was made to look bad because he had a midfielder trying to play centre half beside him.

Henchoz was a good player at Blackburn, but excellent for us beside Hyypia. He hasn't been nearly as good since he left us, he couldn't even get a game at Celtic.

My point is that a good partnership, ie Henchoz-Hyypia or Carra-Hyypia is the key. In fact Hyypia is so good at winning everything in the air and with his positional play that it must be easy to play alongside him. I would say Hyypia makes a very good player alongside him look top class.

Carragher has been immense for us over the last few seasons, but Hyypia is equally, if not more, important. If this Agger kid is in the same mould as Hyypia then he's learning from the best example.

By extension of your point, you could correctly argue that it goes beyond the mere partnership of the centre halves but the whole of the defence, goalkeeper included. The defenders in front of the keeper, particularly the centre halves, need to have a good understanding of what the fella behind him is going to do.

A good centre half will also need a good full back in front of him and have a good understanding with this player of when to stay and when to go when the oppositon are attacking, particularly on the break when your team is stretched. From what I can see, many goals at the top level are conceded due to mistakes from full backs, principally by a full back caught ball watching as he comes into the box to help defend a cross allowing a player to get in behind of him. Stalteri's mistake for Spurs for Harry Kewell's goal in the recent match is a good example.

Then again, all the really top managers will tell you that the art of defence is not down to one top individual or even the back four and goalkeeper, but how the team as a whole defends as a unit, starting with the front players.

by **anfieldadorer** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:59 pm

the other top defender i have seen a lot playing is john terry, i rate terry as a player of world class, his class is reasonably slightly ahead of our carra, so i would rate jamie as 'top class'

by **anfieldadorer** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 5:01 pm

and guess who's voted for rubbish player? :;):

by **BOODIDDY** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:30 pm

too many people regard being world class as a pleasing player on the eye. For example stu read out cannavaro, ferdinand as two of the best centre halves in the world. IMO rubbish, cannavaro was great but sadly father time has caught up with him and no longer is he world class. Ferdinand has been and always will be over rated. I guess coming from west ham the media wanted to follow his carrer and tagged him with bobby moore type qualities. However, moore read the game better and wasn't afraid to muck in. Ferdinand if im really honest hasn't for me yet had a truly awe inspiring match at the top echolons of football.

Whereas carra has, (Juve,Milan and Chelsea in that semi final). Carra is a no nonsense type of defender. A clean sheet to him is like a hatrick for owen. Now again, i truly believe that if liverpool was situated in london, him, xabi and stevie would be spoken of more so than jt and lamps. Its always happened. So he never gets the attention he duly warrants.

Let me put it this way, who in the last five years in major football competitions has almost single handedly carried a team to a major win with his unbelievable courage and willingness to tackle when thier body is breaking up? Only Carra.

I could go on forever about what merits world class. But for me, football is a team game and yes we love individual flair from the likes of henry, ronaldinho, zidane. But a defender that reads a game and tackles exceptionally, is world class.

CARRA IS A WORLD CLASS DEFENDER WHO SHOULD BE IN ENGLANDS ELEVEN WITH JT.

FERDINAND IS OVERRATED YANC (SORRY MANC) :censored:

by **ivor_the_injun** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:34 pm

Give the guy a choice between dying or letting the ball past him towards the goal, you know he'll take death every time.

I do think that people understate how good he is sometimes. Fine, so his heart for the cause atones slightly in a gulf where other players have a bit of extra quality, but to be honest commitment like he's got is hugely underrated as a good trait in a central defender.

He's not the best player at his position in the world, but he will get his head to balls he's got no right to win, get blocks in when you'd bet money against a red shirt intervening, and he is an absolute inspiration to every other player at the club. He's not even particularly quick, but sometimes you'll see him popping up with an interception when you could've sworn he was yards away from the play.

And let's not do the lad any disservice, he is MILES better with the ball at his feet than he was a few years ago. He used to be a bit get-it-and-lump-it, but he's a lot more composed, and simply from the number of attacks that he's started this season I think you need to give the lad some credit.

And you know what? I bet if you gave the lad the choice between being in the first 11 for England at the World Cup, or an contract for life at LFC, he'd ring Sven up and tell him to kiss his ars*.

EXACTLY the kind of player we don't have enough of at the club these days. I don't care who anyone mentions, I'd swap him for absolutely nobody. He has kept some of the best teams in the world at bay time after time, and he has nothing to prove to anybody as far as I'm concerned.

by **Poolinc.** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 3:40 pm

I think Jamie plays consistantly better than his God-given ability because he plays for the team he idolises. He would die for Liverpool and that comes across in his play week in, week out! If we had 11 jamies we'd rule the world. if Sven doesn't put him in as first choice central defender in Germany, i'll be shocked. A truly great defender!!

by **Scottbot** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:49 pm

I would put Carragher in the TOP CLASS bracket.

Based on his performance in the league this season and particularly in Europe last year i find it difficult to justify putting him anywhere else. The lad has so many strengths to his game and despite spending a bit of time as a centre-half under Evans he is still learning the position and i believe he will keep on improving.

His positional sense and reading of the game is excellent. He's brave, heads & blocks well and is one of the cleanest (if not the cleanest) tacklers in the game. He's strong in the tackle & in the air and rarely gets out-muscled for the ball.
He isn't the paciest (or the slowest) defender you will see but his reading of the game means he rarely gets exposed. His distribution and apparent lack of confidence on the ball was always his achilles heel when he played full-back but now he plays in the centre there is no pressure on him to be involved in attacking play + he now has the entire pitch from which to pick his pass. You also notice he plays with a lot more confidence with the ball since the switch and he often drops a shoulder or throws in a drag-back to buy himself a bit of time. I feel Carra is capable of bringing the ball out from the back a little more often than he does.
And finally he has grown into the leader of this Liverpool team. Stevie might lead by example, provide that bit of inspiration to drag them over the finish line but Carra is the one who shouts, berates, encourages and sweats blood.

You wouldn't swap him for anyone would you?

And that's why he is TOP CLASS

I'm not sure i buy into the 'Carra would be a decent player at another team but he's an excellent player for Liverpool' school of thought and think that sells his abilities short.

by **Ace Ventura** » Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:53 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:I do think that people understate how good he is sometimes. Fine, so his heart for the cause atones slightly in a gulf where other players have a bit of extra quality, but to be honest commitment like he's got is hugely underrated as a good trait in a central defender.

That is a great point mate and one that alot of people forget.
Ferdinand can look sublime on the ball, but give me a proper defender any day, one who will think first and foremost about stopping goals and put his body on the line for the cause.

by **115-1073096938** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 1:58 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:I do think that people understate how good he is sometimes. Fine, so his heart for the cause atones slightly in a gulf where other players have a bit of extra quality, but to be honest commitment like he's got is hugely underrated as a good trait in a central defender.

That is a great point mate and one that alot of people forget.
Ferdinand can look sublime on the ball, but give me a proper defender any day, one who will think first and foremost about stopping goals and put his body on the line for the cause.

He's ALWAYS had that though. From day one they've been his main attributes and best ones and he's ALWAYS been that sort of player, why did he get stick for it?

Because people don't know there backside from there elbow. He hasn't all of a sudden become a great player, he has simply improved a few area's over the years slightly, become more of a leader and is back playing in a position and system which suits his attributes best. Its as simple as that.

Like i've said plenty of times, he's more of a leader than Gallas and he's probably slightly more aggresive. In no other area is he better, infact, in most he's not even comparible.

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:01 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:I do think that people understate how good he is sometimes. Fine, so his heart for the cause atones slightly in a gulf where other players have a bit of extra quality, but to be honest commitment like he's got is hugely underrated as a good trait in a central defender.

That is a great point mate and one that alot of people forget.
Ferdinand can look sublime on the ball, but give me a proper defender any day, one who will think first and foremost about stopping goals and put his body on the line for the cause.

He's ALWAYS had that though. From day one they've been his main attributes and best ones and he's ALWAYS been that sort of player, why did he get stick for it?

Because people don't know there backside from there elbow. He hasn't all of a sudden become a great player, he has simply improved a few area's over the years slightly, become more of a leader and is back playing in a position and system which suits his attributes best. Its as simple as that.

Like i've said plenty of times, he's more of a leader than Gallas and he's probably slightly more aggresive. In no other area is he better, infact, in most he's not even comparible.

And you call other people clueless.

I would have Carra over Gallas every time.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:11 pm

I'd put him at about John Terry's level. An excellent player, now quite Nesta but still solid and that is what you want from a centre back.

by **115-1073096938** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:37 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:I do think that people understate how good he is sometimes. Fine, so his heart for the cause atones slightly in a gulf where other players have a bit of extra quality, but to be honest commitment like he's got is hugely underrated as a good trait in a central defender.

That is a great point mate and one that alot of people forget.
Ferdinand can look sublime on the ball, but give me a proper defender any day, one who will think first and foremost about stopping goals and put his body on the line for the cause.

He's ALWAYS had that though. From day one they've been his main attributes and best ones and he's ALWAYS been that sort of player, why did he get stick for it?

Because people don't know there backside from there elbow. He hasn't all of a sudden become a great player, he has simply improved a few area's over the years slightly, become more of a leader and is back playing in a position and system which suits his attributes best. Its as simple as that.

Like i've said plenty of times, he's more of a leader than Gallas and he's probably slightly more aggresive. In no other area is he better, infact, in most he's not even comparible.

And you call other people clueless.

I would have Carra over Gallas every time.

Show's what you know then doesn't it.

by **66-1120597113** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 2:43 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:
ivor_the_injun wrote:I do think that people understate how good he is sometimes. Fine, so his heart for the cause atones slightly in a gulf where other players have a bit of extra quality, but to be honest commitment like he's got is hugely underrated as a good trait in a central defender.

That is a great point mate and one that alot of people forget.
Ferdinand can look sublime on the ball, but give me a proper defender any day, one who will think first and foremost about stopping goals and put his body on the line for the cause.

He's ALWAYS had that though. From day one they've been his main attributes and best ones and he's ALWAYS been that sort of player, why did he get stick for it?

Because people don't know there backside from there elbow. He hasn't all of a sudden become a great player, he has simply improved a few area's over the years slightly, become more of a leader and is back playing in a position and system which suits his attributes best. Its as simple as that.

Like i've said plenty of times, he's more of a leader than Gallas and he's probably slightly more aggresive. In no other area is he better, infact, in most he's not even comparible.

And you call other people clueless.

I would have Carra over Gallas every time.

Are you serious Leon or on the wind up here fella??

Could you really say with a straight face that if we took Carra out and put Gallas in we would be a better team for it??

NO WAY!

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