Liverpool FC Forum

Woollyback wrote:let's not forget that until about 2 years ago carra was fairly average in terms of ability and only started to shine when henchoz rapidly fizzled out and ge got his chance alongside hyypia

Woollyback wrote:ok, perhaps "average" was a bit harsh but he wasn't anything outstanding until about 2 years ago

mark the red wrote:he is top class but the problem is that unless some one like big sam or stuart pearce gets in the england hotseat, players like jc will be overlooked.  he is a hardworker, something that sven doesnt appreciate

stu_the_red wrote:To say he's better alround than the likes of Ferdinand is simply incorrect. Ferdinand is an excellent alround player. As a footballer he's outstanding, what he lacks is manager who can get the best out of him both at club and international level. Ferdinand doesn't have Carragher's heart, tackling ability or aggression, he is however better in the air, quicker and far superior technically aswell as being outstanding tactically.

However Carragher is played in a system that suits him perfectly, the people around him compliment his abilities perfectly. I've never once said he's not an excellent player, i've said that since he first came through, i've ALWAYS liked Jamie Carragher and always will because of what he gives to the club. The system doesn't require him to be an olympic sprinter, it doesn't require him to be dominant in the air and it doesn't require him to bring the ball out from the back. It simply requires him to read anything Hyypia, Finnan or Riise miss. He's effectively a sweeper.

He's a similar player to William Gallas only not in the same class. Gallas has practically everything on Carragher expect leadership.

As for you wanting to have a pop at me, well at least i come on here and talk football. The only posts you make these days are moaning about threads being started or being sarcastic towards another member. You don't have in you to come on here and talk purely about football so you can shove your judgements of people and arse kissing with certain members where the sun doesn't shine.

Ace Ventura wrote:

stu_the_red wrote:To say he's better alround than the likes of Ferdinand is simply incorrect. Ferdinand is an excellent alround player. As a footballer he's outstanding, what he lacks is manager who can get the best out of him both at club and international level. Ferdinand doesn't have Carragher's heart, tackling ability or aggression, he is however better in the air, quicker and far superior technically aswell as being outstanding tactically.

However Carragher is played in a system that suits him perfectly, the people around him compliment his abilities perfectly. I've never once said he's not an excellent player, i've said that since he first came through, i've ALWAYS liked Jamie Carragher and always will because of what he gives to the club. The system doesn't require him to be an olympic sprinter, it doesn't require him to be dominant in the air and it doesn't require him to bring the ball out from the back. It simply requires him to read anything Hyypia, Finnan or Riise miss. He's effectively a sweeper.

He's a similar player to William Gallas only not in the same class. Gallas has practically everything on Carragher expect leadership.

As for you wanting to have a pop at me, well at least i come on here and talk football. The only posts you make these days are moaning about threads being started or being sarcastic towards another member. You don't have in you to come on here and talk purely about football so you can shove your judgements of people and arse kissing with certain members where the sun doesn't shine.

Stu, i have only quoted part of your post becaus it was at that point that i really disagreed with you.
If you think Rio Ferdinand's only problems are based on the fact that he is being mismanaged then i think you are a bit short sighted mate.
He has Eriksson and Ferguson, hardly managing novices.
I would choose Carragher over Rio and day of the week and at any level.
I read through your post carefully as i always do, but although you may put Rio above carra in most of the areas.
There is one massive area you missed out....concentration.
And the fact is no matter how technically gited Ferdinand is, he switches off in games and mistakes do come.
The bombardment we had against Chelsea in the Champions league semi's was stopped by Carragher and the rest of the back 4. There is no way Rio would of dealt with that much pressure imo.
Ferdinand is great to watch when he is on song but for me will always make mistakes and thats not down to systems just downright concentration lapses imho.

stu_the_red wrote:

Ace Ventura wrote:

stu_the_red wrote:To say he's better alround than the likes of Ferdinand is simply incorrect. Ferdinand is an excellent alround player. As a footballer he's outstanding, what he lacks is manager who can get the best out of him both at club and international level. Ferdinand doesn't have Carragher's heart, tackling ability or aggression, he is however better in the air, quicker and far superior technically aswell as being outstanding tactically.

However Carragher is played in a system that suits him perfectly, the people around him compliment his abilities perfectly. I've never once said he's not an excellent player, i've said that since he first came through, i've ALWAYS liked Jamie Carragher and always will because of what he gives to the club. The system doesn't require him to be an olympic sprinter, it doesn't require him to be dominant in the air and it doesn't require him to bring the ball out from the back. It simply requires him to read anything Hyypia, Finnan or Riise miss. He's effectively a sweeper.

He's a similar player to William Gallas only not in the same class. Gallas has practically everything on Carragher expect leadership.

As for you wanting to have a pop at me, well at least i come on here and talk football. The only posts you make these days are moaning about threads being started or being sarcastic towards another member. You don't have in you to come on here and talk purely about football so you can shove your judgements of people and arse kissing with certain members where the sun doesn't shine.

Stu, i have only quoted part of your post becaus it was at that point that i really disagreed with you.
If you think Rio Ferdinand's only problems are based on the fact that he is being mismanaged then i think you are a bit short sighted mate.
He has Eriksson and Ferguson, hardly managing novices.
I would choose Carragher over Rio and day of the week and at any level.
I read through your post carefully as i always do, but although you may put Rio above carra in most of the areas.
There is one massive area you missed out....concentration.
And the fact is no matter how technically gited Ferdinand is, he switches off in games and mistakes do come.
The bombardment we had against Chelsea in the Champions league semi's was stopped by Carragher and the rest of the back 4. There is no way Rio would of dealt with that much pressure imo.
Ferdinand is great to watch when he is on song but for me will always make mistakes and thats not down to systems just downright concentration lapses imho.

Ace, I've mentioned Ferdinand's concentration before, i don't know weather its in this or another thread. The problem isn't that Ferdinand can't cope with the pressure you're speaking of, infact i think he'd be immense at that, he lacks concentration when he has nothing to do, that is what i'd be more worried about.

To be fair, i've said, i'd take Carragher over anyone because of what he gives to the club. The lads the heart and soul of this club at present and is everything this club is about, in that respect he's irreplaceable. To suggest he has more ability than the likes of Gallas and Ferdinand though is a bit silly.

You mention Ferguson and Eriksson. Ferguson is hardly known for his tactical nouse mate. Infact tactically, he's very good, but not class. His main area's are motivation, picking the right players at the right times (partially tactical) and getting the best out of players. When they won that treble they weren't tactically wonderfull, they had world class players all over the pitch (Schmeichal, Stam, Keane, Giggs and Beckham) backed up with top class ones in Yorke and Scholes, they had one hell of a set of players. Ferguson fails to get the bets out of Ferdinand as he doesn't have someone who compliments him at the back. Eriksson, well, i'm sorry mate, but i could do a better job than that clown at managing that England team. If that team doesn't make it to the final at least, the mans an idiot.

Owen, Rooney, Beckham, Gerrard, Ashley Cole, Jon Woodgate, Campbell, Ferdinand, Terry, Robinson... Theres no excuse. Then theres Joe Cole, Gareth Barry, Dean Ashton, Jermaine Defoe, Peter Crouch, Chris Sutton, Jermaine Pennant, Stewart Downing, Jamie Carragher, Scott Parker, Frank Lampard and Michael Carrick.

Infact, if you look at englands second string its still a hell of a team.

Sven hasn't got a clue mate, not a clue. You saw the best of Ferdinand at the last world cup, people will talk about form in an international tournement, form is what Baros done, class is what the likes of Ferdinand, Owen, Rooney, Zidane etc all show.

I hate the man, he is however a tremendous player and anyone who says otherwise mate doesn't know the game.

Ace Ventura wrote:I can see Ferdinand has all the ability in the world, but to blame his failings as a player on 2 of the top rated managers in world football is wrong imo. Eriksson you might get away with that one because alot of people are suggesting he isn't up to the England job, but Ferguson is a great manager, and its not his fault if players dont have the same passion and will to win as he does.
I think the point you made about his concentration going when united are dominating a match was probably right.
But at the end of the day playing for Manchester united thats going to happen in the majority of matches.
I agree that he is blessed with a great deal of talent and if we were to show little 5 minutes clips of both him and Carragher then everyone would pick Rio over Jamie.
I appreciate the fact you can see Carragher is irreplaceable to Liverpool, i dont think you could say the same about Rio with united.
I also dont think that Rio has ever played in a side where the defence is nigh on impregnable, thats got to be partly down to the player.
I do accept the fact that we get an extra 10-20% from Jamie due to his love of the club and the fans, but i still think he could be a rock for England also given a run of a couple of games alongside Terry.
He hasn't had that and anyone who knows there football knows central defenders rely on partnerships.
I dont claim to be an expert but i do think i've called this right.
I want a centre half to be 100% committed into every tackle to be totally focused for 90 minutes, i dont really care if he can bring the ball out and dribble past 2 players, cos first and foremost his job is to defend.
That type of player is Carragher or Terry...not Ferdinand but thats just my opinion.

stu_the_red wrote:

Ace Ventura wrote:I can see Ferdinand has all the ability in the world, but to blame his failings as a player on 2 of the top rated managers in world football is wrong imo. Eriksson you might get away with that one because alot of people are suggesting he isn't up to the England job, but Ferguson is a great manager, and its not his fault if players dont have the same passion and will to win as he does.
I think the point you made about his concentration going when united are dominating a match was probably right.
But at the end of the day playing for Manchester united thats going to happen in the majority of matches.
I agree that he is blessed with a great deal of talent and if we were to show little 5 minutes clips of both him and Carragher then everyone would pick Rio over Jamie.
I appreciate the fact you can see Carragher is irreplaceable to Liverpool, i dont think you could say the same about Rio with united.
I also dont think that Rio has ever played in a side where the defence is nigh on impregnable, thats got to be partly down to the player.
I do accept the fact that we get an extra 10-20% from Jamie due to his love of the club and the fans, but i still think he could be a rock for England also given a run of a couple of games alongside Terry.
He hasn't had that and anyone who knows there football knows central defenders rely on partnerships.
I dont claim to be an expert but i do think i've called this right.
I want a centre half to be 100% committed into every tackle to be totally focused for 90 minutes, i dont really care if he can bring the ball out and dribble past 2 players, cos first and foremost his job is to defend.
That type of player is Carragher or Terry...not Ferdinand but thats just my opinion.

You state his failings aren't down to national managers and Ferguson. What i'll say to you on that front is O'Leary paid 18million for him, Ferguson paid 30million for him, Sven has him as first choice and other mangers before him picked him in there squads as first choice, do you think they'd pay that money and pick him so regularly even when his forms been poor if his ability level wasn't upto it?

I hate using that arguement, its weak and pathetic to be honest.

I'm using that as an example though that people other than myself see a world class player, yet hardly anyone can get the best out of him.

JBG i think you're comment on his positioning is well off the mark. He's oustanding in that area but playing next to Silvestre, Neville and Brown doesn't do him any justice at all. Remember Hyypia when playing next to Biscan and Traore, how badly did he struggle?