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Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Redman in wales » Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:54 pm

tubby » Tue Jul 30, 2013 4:35 pm wrote:I think the approach of steady and sustained is a good model but we are lacking 3/4 quality players. Once those 3/4 players are in then the scouting teams job is made easier by having less to worry about and focus on as we would have the spine of good team already in place. From there it's easier to push on to 3rd or 2nd or a title challenge. Right now to ask BR to take us from 7th to 4th is asking too much. He needs to sign the right players but he needs money to do it. He needs the sort of money FSG spend in their 1st season.

There is also the added benefit that if the club is seen to be spending money on quality players then that's an indication of their willingness to push on to the players. Our failings in this space have meant that when we do get hold of a truly talented player such as a Suarez or Torres they soon become of the opinion they need to move on as the club are not being ambitious.

Also on FSG's spending how much of that has actually been their own? If you take away the money we got in for Torres it's probably not much.


over £60m of their own money. (a lot more than everton who finished above us) -
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Postby Benny The Noon » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:11 pm

Is it £60mil of their money or £60mil money earned by the club in telly money and sponsership.

They made an initial purchase from their money since then any money spent has been money from the club. Even then I don't believe we have spent all the money the club has earned with money going to paying off debt left over and "loans" from the owners.
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Postby Redman in wales » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:13 pm

Well it's £60m more than the owners of Everton who finished above us
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Postby Benny The Noon » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:16 pm

Redman in wales » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:13 pm wrote:Well it's £60m more than the owners of Everton who finished above us


That's why the BS will also never break into the top 5 now.

When they have spent money though in recent times they have spent it well.
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Postby eds » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:02 am

Redman in wales » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:13 pm wrote:Well it's £60m more than the owners of Everton who finished above us


Why are you comparing us to Neverton?

Neverton haven't really challenged for 4th and now that Gollum is gone won't have the same success they have had with their purchases over the last few seasons. Expect them to drop off dramatically this season, just like the barcodes last season.

60m over 3 seasons is actually quiet a poor out lay from the owners, no where near good enough to get us back to 4th and challenging for the title from their on. Look at the players the top 4 or 5 teams have brought in over this time and you can see a chasm of difference.
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Postby Redman in wales » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:59 am

eds » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:02 am wrote:
Redman in wales » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:13 pm wrote:Well it's £60m more than the owners of Everton who finished above us


Why are you comparing us to Neverton?

Neverton haven't really challenged for 4th and now that Gollum is gone won't have the same success they have had with their purchases over the last few seasons. Expect them to drop off dramatically this season, just like the barcodes last season.

60m over 3 seasons is actually quiet a poor out lay from the owners, no where near good enough to get us back to 4th and challenging for the title from their on. Look at the players the top 4 or 5 teams have brought in over this time and you can see a chasm of difference.


No, I'm not comparing us to Everton, Merely pointing out that we’ve spent enough money to be higher than where we are. I used everton on that occasion but I could use Spurs if you like.

Spurs:
Season 08/09 they finished 8th
Season 09/10 – net spend:  -£1m (profit), end of season finish: 4
Season 10/11 – net spend : +£17.5m, end of season finish: 5
Season 11/12 – net spend : -£27m (profit), end of season finish: 4
Season 12/13 – net spend : -£1.3m (profit), end of season finish: 5

Whilst I do agree that £60m is quite a poor outlay – I personally think they should be funding £60m (net) per season until we break into the top 3 – The point I’m trying to make is that the 3 immediate teams above us don’t spend any money over and above the money they receive from Transfers.

The main reason we’ve finished 7th, 6th, 8th, 7th has been consistent very poor decisions in the transfer market. 

Since Spurs finished 8th in 08/09, how many signings over £15m have they made since then to break in to the champions league twice?

1: Moussa Dembele (£15m)

Since Liverpool finished 2nd in 08/09 how many signings over £15m have we made since then to be where we are now?

7: Johnson (£17.5m), Aquilani (£17m), Carroll (£35m), Suarez (£23m), Downing (£20m), Henderson (£16m), Allen (£15m)
Last edited by Redman in wales on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:25 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby SouthCoastShankly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:09 am

I personally think they should be funding that per season until we break into the top 3 –

That a bit much to expect them to fund our transfer activities?  :eyebrow
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Postby Redman in wales » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:17 am

SouthCoastShankly » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:09 am wrote:
I personally think they should be funding that per season until we break into the top 3 –

That a bit much to expect them to fund our transfer activities?  :eyebrow


:glare:   edited to make a bit more sense  :rasp

but seriously, that's what I think it would take to break in to the top 3 a consistant big spend - but i know that they wont do that as they've already said they want to makes us fairly self sufficient.
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Postby maguskwt » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:38 am

I don't personally think we need 3/4 first team players to challenge for top 4. If Suarez stays, I think we only need 2, a CB and a DM. The rest Will be on coaching and trying to gel the team into a unit. The key is evolution of BR's style now, not another revolution, last season was the revolution. If however, Suarez leaves, we would need the aforementioned 2 plus a striker...
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Postby Kash_Mountain » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:03 am

Well, as the Owner buy's the biggest Newspaper available in America, make's me think, that money could have been ploughed into our club........to purchase high quality players.
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Postby killerp » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:23 pm

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/8861679/

Transfer news: John W Henry says Luis Suarez is going nowhere

Liverpool owner John W Henry says forward Luis Suarez will not be sold to Arsenal for any price.

Suarez is eager to leave the Anfield club and said earlier in the week that he had been promised he would be sold if Liverpool failed to qualify for this season's Champions League, while Arsenal have bid £40m + £1 for the Uruguayan forward.

But outraged Liverpool boss Brendan Rodgers denies any promises were made, has accused Suarez of lacking respect for Liverpool, and has banished him from training with the first team.

And Henry, the leader of the Boston-based Fenway Sports Group that owns Liverpool, says Suarez will definitely not be allowed to join a rival Premier League team.

"We are not going to sell Luis," said Henry.

To sell would be ludicrous

"We're not in Europe this year and have not been in the Champions League for a while. To sell to a rival for those positions, or one of them, would be ludicrous.

"Liverpool needs to be playing in Europe, it needs to be playing in the Champions League. That's what Liverpool football club is about."

And Henry says even an increased bid from Arsenal will not change his stance.

"I'm unequivocal that we won't sell to Arsenal, whatever the bid is," he said. "I have not said it to Stan (Kroenke, Arsenal's majority shareholder) but I had a personal conversation with Ivan Gazidis (Arsenal chief executive) and told him we would not sell.

"He won't be sold even if a foreign club comes in, because we do not have time to sign a suitable replacement.

"It's a football reason, it's not about finances. That's why, at this point, so late in the window, with everyone who's already moved or isn't moving, we can't replace him. So, for football reasons, we can't sell, and especially to Arsenal."

And Henry does not believe that Suarez's relationship with Rodgers and the Liverpool fans has been damaged beyond repair.

"The manager is upset, as he should be, and the supporters are upset," said Henry. "But we need Luis. Hopefully this will pass."


Good to see Henry speaking for once!
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Postby Benny The Noon » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:20 pm

PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS

by Gareth Roberts // 13 August 2013

THREE years ago this month, Martin Broughton, Chelsea season ticket holder and then chairman of Liverpool Football Club, was reportedly assessing six bidders’ credentials to take over from Tom Hicks and George Gillett, the carpetbaggers who in just three years as owners plunged the club into unmanageable debt.

Christian Purslow had signed Joe Cole on a four-year deal with a six-figure salary. Paul Tyrrell was managing a dossier on supporters. Roy Hodgson presided over team affairs and was joined by Mike Kelly. Javier Mascherano was about to leave for Barcelona and Christian Poulsen was on his way in.

Steven Gerrard spoke of his desire to get Liverpool back in the Champions League and Broughton was going on the record too: “Seventh [where the club had finished in the Premier League the previous season] is not their rightful position, and neither is administration.

“We are out there to find someone wealthy. But it’s important that they can win popular support.”

You know the rest: New England Sports Ventures completed a takeover and John W Henry told the world: “We’re here to win. We have a tradition of winning. We’ll do whatever we need to do.”

August 2013 and Steven Gerrard is still speaking of his desire to get Liverpool back in the Champions League, a competition Liverpool last graced with a 2-1 home defeat to Fiorentina on Wednesday, December 9, 2009.

No European football of any description will be played at Anfield in the forthcoming campaign following last season’s seventh-place finish and what Broughton argued was not Liverpool’s rightful place is now near enough a four-season trend after finishes of seventh, sixth, eighth and seventh.

Off the field, Liverpool is in a healthier state than in 2010 – It would be hard for it to be anything other. On it, things appear to be much the same – the club is on the outside looking in; missing out on Champions League money, struggling to attract players of sufficient quality to get back there and facing bids for its best players from rival clubs.

What is now known as Fenway Sports Group inherited a lot of mistakes – Roy Hodgson top of the list closely followed by poor players, big wages and long contracts. But by Henry’s own admission they have since made a fair few of their own. The worry is they continue to do so.

FSG walked into an unfortunate set of circumstances, with a resurgent Spurs ready to pounce on Liverpool’s weakness and Manchester City joining Chelsea in being financially doped by a foreign billionaire.

Alongside what is now looking like misplaced faith in the Financial Fair Play rules, they are the caveats to criticism of FSG: restoring Liverpool to past glories represented a major challenge for any owner after Hicks and Gillett.

But as the clock ticks ever closer to the kick off of a new season – and the third anniversary of Henry and Co’s reign – the concern is that FSG’s approach is hindering Liverpool. Sadly, no one but the deluded would expect a title challenge but, even living within the club’s means, could progress be quicker? Could Liverpool be more competitive than they appear to be? Could a bolder approach reap rewards?

Policies of financial prudence, of gaining perceived value from the wage bill and of lowering the age of the playing staff are clearly being pursued. A young manager rather than the best manager available was sought when Kenny Dalglish was sacked. Positive football, attacking football, entertaining football – all have been referenced by owner and coach when all Liverpool has ever wanted is winning football.

It all adds up to an approach that appears idealistic – and the question is whether that idealism is now resulting in a struggle to tread water rather than a swim against the tide.

Simon Mignolet, Luis Alberto, Iago Aspas and Kolo Toure have signed. Andy Carroll, Stewart Downing, Jay Spearing and Jonjo Shelvey have been sold. Jamie Carragher has retired and Pepe Reina, Suso and Jack Robinson have been sent on loan.

In terms of quality and numbers – particularly with the ongoing Luis Suarez issue – Liverpool look short and potentially over reliant on players with limited experience.

By Brendan Rodgers’ own admission he is still looking for players that will improve the first 11. In July he said: “What we’ve done in the early part of the summer is to improve the squad. That’s something I feel we’ve done with the players we’ve brought in.

“Now what’s important over the next three to five weeks is improving the team. That’s something the club is working very hard at.”


Five weeks on, nothing has changed.

Rightly, the point is raised that Liverpool aren’t the pull they were. Fingers are pointed at Spurs’ £45million outlay on Roberto Soldado, Nacer Chadli and Paulinho. Rightly, the counter point is made that they have finished fourth, fifth, fourth, fifth in recent years – they have Europe, they missed out on Champions League football by two points, there’s the draw of London to foreign players and so on.

The bottom line is, they appear to be ambitious and they are ready to challenge for honours.

Henrikh Mkhitaryan opted for Champions League finalists Borussia Dortmund over Liverpool while Diego Costa decided to stay with Atletico Madrid – unsurprising after a third place finish in La Liga guaranteed a seat at Europe’s top table for the Spaniards.

The transfer window closes on September 3 so of course there is still time for Liverpool to recruit players and improve the perception of the summer’s work. But if the current situation prevails it begs a few questions – first, the age profiling of players – doesn’t this simply limit the number of potential targets? Second, is the obsession with ‘value’ stifling attempts to recruit players?

First and foremost, Liverpool must be competitive on the football pitch. It should go without saying. It’s a football club before it’s a brand. A team before it’s a business. If that means paying a little over the odds for a desired target shouldn’t the club do just that, particularly as every passing season out of the Champions League makes the club a harder sell to potential recruits?

Revisiting John Henry’s open letter to supporters following last August’s baffling business that left Liverpool a striker short it seems highly unlikely he would agree.

Henry wrote: “[The club] pushed hard in the final days of the transfer window on a number of forward targets and it is unfortunate that on this occasion we were unable to conclude acceptable deals to bring those targets in.

“The transfer policy was not about cutting costs. It was – and will be in the future – about getting maximum value for what is spent so that we can build quality and depth.”

“We will invest to succeed. But we will not mortgage the future with risky spending.

“We will build and grow from within, buy prudently and cleverly and never again waste resources on inflated transfer fees and unrealistic wages. We have no fear of spending and competing with the very best but we will not overpay for players.”

‘Acceptable deals’, ‘maximum value’, ‘risky spending’, ‘inflated transfer fees’ and ‘unrealistic wages’ sound like highly subjective terms. What price – for example – a marquee signing that improves the side, lifts morale among the squad and supporters (many of whom will be paying increased ticket prices this season) and sends out a message that Liverpool means business?

Slow and sensible is all well and good but rival club aren’t standing still waiting for Liverpool to get their act together and a previously undiscovered back door to success is unlikely to open soon – the maxim remains that those that pay out the most win the most.

Manchester City continue to buy while simultaneously building an impressive academy, Manchester United is, as much as it turns the stomach to say it, still the ‘brand’ to beat revenue-wise, Chelsea have Jose Mourinho and Roman Abramovich and Spurs are seemingly throwing caution to the wind in the transfer market, albeit that they have the cloud of Gareth Bale’s future hanging over them.

Henry was rightly praised for his stance on selling Suarez to Arsenal, the line about it being dictated by ‘football reasons’ was particularly heartening. But perhaps now those same ‘football reasons’ should dictate a loosening of fingers on the club purse.

And if there’s any doubt over Henry’s involvement in the buying and selling – despite the increasingly rare Anfield appearances – a line from a 2011 interview with The Telegraph should be considered: “I want to know why we are doing what we are doing on the pitch and with regard to player acquisition. I wouldn’t be doing my job in allocating resources if I wasn’t able to make sense of the individual steps we are taking within the context of our overall philosophy.”

It’s hard to accept that there isn’t a player or two at a club in Europe below the level that Liverpool are currently at that would improve the side and would be tempted by the challenge of an Anfield career.

This isn’t a call for a Leeds-style spending spree to endanger the future of the club, more a slackening of a stance that could be doing more harm than good; a declaration of ambition or as Rodgers put it, “that little bit of quality that could really set us up for an exciting season.”

Henry said FSG will do whatever they need to do to win. Now is the time for them to do just that.

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/08/p ... -mouth-is/
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Postby tubby » Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:49 am

I think there is a lot of smoke being blown up peoples asses tbh. Henry always seem to revert to his 'it takes time to clear up the mess' speil. And they have made it publically known they are upset about FFP. Essentially they don't have much money to attract top players and are trying to hide behind FFP.
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Postby heimdall » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:18 pm

tubby » Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:49 am wrote:I think there is a lot of smoke being blown up peoples asses tbh. Henry always seem to revert to his 'it takes time to clear up the mess' speil. And they have made it publically known they are upset about FFP. Essentially they don't have much money to attract top players and are trying to hide behind FFP.

I still think FFP will come round to bite a lot of clubs in the *****, and then we'll be in a good position but in any case i think we are making slow but good progress an dif we get this Willian then it will show FSG's intent.
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Postby Benny The Noon » Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:13 pm

A year ago, Tom Werner claimed Liverpool “certainly have the resources to compete with anyone in football.” Eighteen months earlier, the Liverpool chairman had claimed that his style was “to under promise and over deliver.” Yesterday, Liverpool were out-bid by Tottenham Hotspur for Willian who became the third major transfer target they have missed out on this summer.

In light of their latest setback, a comment made by Brendan Rodgers at the weekend is worth revisiting. “We are having to sell players to gain money to get players in and we are trying to balance all of that while trying to progress,” the Liverpool manager said.

What is becoming increasingly clear during this transfer window is that Liverpool do not have the resources to compete with anyone. They do have money to spend but Rodgers is working in a climate in which he has to try to balance the books at the same time as producing a team capable of competing with those who do have greater spending power.

So far this summer, Liverpool are trading at a profit. Equally significantly, six weeks have now passed since Rodgers said they had “three to five weeks to improve the team” after “improving the squad” earlier in the transfer window. Liverpool now have less than a fortnight to put that right while others – most notably Tottenham, Manchester City and Chelsea – have already strengthened.

There is money available to Rodgers but he appears hampered by the desire of Fenway Sports Group (FSG), the club’s owners, to ensure that Liverpool do not pay more than they believe a player is worth. It is a noble and financially astute aim, but top level football is dismissive of it and the reality they are discovering is that if you don’t want to pay the asking price for a player the likelihood is that there will be someone else who does.

Henrikh Mkhitaryan and Diego Costa both slipped through Liverpool’s fingers while a bid was also considered for Stevan Jovetic only to be put off by the Montenegro forward’s desire for Champions League football. In recent weeks, Erik Lamela, another Spurs target, has come under scrutiny but, again, Liverpool believe Roma’s £30 million valuation of the forward is too high.

Liverpool could yet make the kind of signings required to turn them into genuine contenders for a place in the Premier League top four but as things stand they are guilty of over promising and under delivering in the transfer market. Their only excuse, albeit a significant one, is the ongoing absence of Champions League football which makes them a less attractive proposition for many potential signings.
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