Liverpool FC Forum

by **maximus** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 5:56 pm

I'm sorry guys, I must agree with Leon.

I do not understand the race issue at all, I think it is one rule for black people and another rule for everyone else. I am of cypriot origin, but born in the Uk and consider myself to be British, i work here pay my taxes, and do not consider Cyprus to be 'home'. I have been called names like bubble, stavros, kebab muncher e.t.c all my life, quite frankly I treat that with the same contempt as I would if someone called me 'four eyes' (as I wear specs as well). The point I am making is it has never ever offended me at all.

When a racist remark has been targeted at black people, there is a huge outrage. what is the difference?? Racism is racism is racism, no matter what colour, creed or cultural background you may have.

Can someone please explain the difference??

by **dawson99** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:05 pm

i have to admit ive asked people at my table at work what the difference is, and they cant really think of one... very thought provoking, love it

did hear one thing tho, about the incetement to violence.
if someone makes a racist comment and can get away with it, then what next? violence can start.
You saw the people in the Real Madrid game, hitler tattoos and Nazi salutes.

There is no difference when u look at it on paper, but socially some people are just wronguns, and oral racism is an incitement to something much much worse.

by **zarababe** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 9:32 pm

dawson99 wrote:, and oral racism is an incitement to something much much worse.

This point hits the nail on the head for me .. it is the act of incitement particularly in the context of a large crowd which is the issue..

...again in Madrid.. it started slow and got louder and louder.. was obnoxious to hear and a sad reflection on Spanish society ... what must it have been like for our black players...

Blackness is the most visible, that's why people of colour are easy targets... any one subjected to racist abuse be they Cypriots, of mixed heritage or visible black .. shud not be subjected to it... why shud anyone put up with it and shut-up...

...Any name calling is outrageous...

... Racism can be an important factor when making decisions about peoples life chances... racist tendencies affect decisions etc.. (a bit of the topic here folks)

Lets not forget that the individual in question was not only name calling but also gesturing quite confidentally ... and who around him bothered to stop him, did the stewards react no ?

It took the incensed actions of Dwight Yorke for him to be tackled...

.. I think this sets an important precedent if it means that others will think twice before using color as a reason for open and unashamed abuse .. then so be it..

..

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:00 am

But I have seen people calling someone fatty, and gesturing with their arms as though to insinuate a large rolly polly belly, you know what I mean.

Is this the same as, worse than or nowhere near as bad as calling someone of black ethnic origin a monkey?

I just do not get it.

For instance, I like to listen to Eminem, 50 Cent and Dr Dre. In their songs, they refer to themselves and other rappers as nigga, my nigga etc.

If a man in the street does the same, is this racist?

For me racism is only a problem when it means prejudging someone.

If a guy can not ge a job cus he is black, the holocaust and slavery in the US in the last century and before as examples.

This is the problem, and NOT name calling surely?

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:17 am

i totally agree with leonn on this matter. where do we draw the line. let me give an example:

a black Man Utd supporter joins in the song about liverpool slums, we have all heard the song. im not offended by it, however is someone is offended, is the black Man Utd supporter going to be prosecuted for being racist?

if the offended person says he feels he is being victimised because of the area he lives in and he feels it was done in relation to his skin colour, does he have a case.

i am a big believer in treating everyone the same, no matter what their skin colour, racism is just a form of predjudice, if i refuse a scottish person a job because he is scottish then im being racist. how often do white people scream racism?

unfortunatley the race card is played too often when there is no need for it to be, this lessens the sympathy i have for people that are actually racially abused. as an english man i had a freedom of speech which has been taken away and people try to make me feel ashamed if i have a negative opinion about a black person when the problem is nothing to do with skin colour.

OK i am a white english man and i live in Malaysia, malaysia is very multicultaral, mostly malays and about 40% is chinese and indian. they live well together, however the malays get preferential treatment from the government (cheap loans, housing etc). no one screams racism, the chinese and indians just go out and work harder. also it is ok here if you are advertising for a job to state the race you want. could you imagine doing that in the UK, "Whites Only". imagine the uproar.

in life you get what you work for, you take knocks and you get back up. i really dont give a sh*t what people say about me, call me what you want to call me, i wont compalin to the police, i will just rise above it and laugh at you. people need to stop being so sensitive.

by the way i am half lithuanian and my my family suffered abuse when they came to england but they just got on with it.

anyway feel free to comment on this. read it properly and you will see im not racist, im just a person who is p!ssed of with all this sh!te

RESPECT HAS TO BE EARNED, I WILL NOT RESPECT SOMEONE BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE OR BLACK, I WILL RESPECT SOMEONE BECAUSE THEY ARE A DECENT PERSON.

by **maximus** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:55 am

peewee,

Could not agree more mate. As I have said in a previous post, i am of Cypriot origin, my parents came to the UK in the late 50's and suffered all sorts of racist ******, but just got on with it, and never used it as an excuse to stop them working hard and trying to educate their children, put them through uni. e.t.c, and generally just get on with life. My parents now run a successful business and are doing ok, thankyou very much.

I do find all this racist stuff painfully boring.

by **zarababe** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:09 pm

... Good perspectives with all your points actually .. Healthy debate...

..for me the reaction from the player itself was quite telling about the impact upon him... he's anger and he's intolerance to it ...

.. sticks and stones... yes may be... although a harsh punishment ... a precedent has been set.. lets see who'll be brave enuff to gesture like that again.. and the reaction...

... none of us are "pure" anything... we shud all respect each other for who we are not what we look like, colour, creed, shape or size.. and what we choose to be .. sexual preferences, religious beliefs, football allegiances (oops may be not the latter lol) ...

..the fact is that we all need to think about how we perceive anyone.. I was always taught ppl earn respect (aka Peewee's point) .. and that is the underlying issue.. if u see ppl as ppl .. not as ppl of "Color".. "fat" "thin" "gay".. but as ppl hey so much would not be said, inferred and indeed happen..

... what one person calls "boring" can however become a loss of identity for another... in a social context of course.. but this is a footie forum...

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:33 pm

On Dwight Yorke, he was offended and caused a scene as the guy called him a monkey.

Would Yorke have done the same if the guy was merely calling him a w@nker and gesturing with his hand?

What is the difference ?

by **zarababe** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:02 pm

..was he singled out because he was a male.. able to perform the getures you refer too... ? or was he singled out because he was an.. ex player .. ugly player.. Jordan's ex...?

.. that fact is that he did make gestures in direct reference to Dwight's colour/ ethnicity... THAT clearly offended Dwight Yorke... he was not prepared to be singled out on that basis..

...yeh call him a W@nker .. and you label everyone ... single him out and you use something that potentially offends.. affects perfomance on the pitch... cud cause a riot.. get you banned and fined...

.. I know what u mean about name calling and the punishment to fit the crime... but hey after what went on in Spain.... looks like Players will not put up with it and shut-up...

by **dawson99** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:18 pm

u gotta look at the real madrid game tho mid week, a section of fans, all skin heads, all covered in tattoos, swastikas and hitler motifs. these people who make racist remarks are not football fans, they are racists.
call someone fat, so what, everyone does it, im not saying its righy, but its more socially acceptable.
Unsociallably acceptable behaviour is more likely to end in violence, thats fact.
And we dont want that do we?
we shouldnt call scholes a ginger twa% but we do, but we do it in the moment, monkey chants done by people is done out of malice for a whole race.

by **Fowler_E7** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:34 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:The lad has been made a scapegoat for the problem (that is endemic in football) in the light of the Spain game.

The FA had to be seen to act fast as the English Authorities are trying to use the scenes in Spain to poo poo Madrids bid for the Olympics.

To be honest, it would be nice to see the same swift justice used in more important areas of society.

oh yeah, bacause racism is not important is it

by **Fowler_E7** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:39 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:I knew as soon as I posted this it would offend or lead to vocal replies, however that is not the reason I did it.

I do honestly beleive that racism in this form is nothing more than name calling.

racist name calling is completly diffrent to name calling, if you call a black player a balck ****** or just a ******, youre telling me it's the same thing! racism will provoke a reaction from the player, footballers are used to abuse from supporters but abuse of a racist nature is uncalled for and no one should have to accept that as just normal name calling

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:55 pm

As I said, I am not racist, but is this different/worse than the abuse Becks gets (or used to get) about his wifes sexual preference ?

by **zarababe** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:07 pm

zarababe wrote:.. that fact is that he did make gestures in direct reference to Dwight's colour/ ethnicity... THAT clearly offended Dwight Yorke... he was not prepared to be singled out on that basis..

I quote my self again.. each to there own...

..but racist name calling is different ... my view is racist name calling is not acceptable... and shud not be accepted in football grounds or socal circles neither... I don't socialise with ppl who think its ok to name call on that basis or any other issues.. including homophobic .. but that's me and that's my choice...

by **112-1077774096** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:55 am

i call my niece 'monkey as term of endearment and she calls me monkey. should we outlaw the word monkey from the english language? like we cant say baa baa black sheep anymore.

my mates bird is half caste and she is a fabntastic bird, but we were chatting one day and i said she was coloured, she got all @rsy and said she was black. now i thought black was derogative and blacks like to be called coloured but apparently this had changed since i was a policeman and they now like to be called blacks.

maybe we can have an update on the news every night about what is acceptable to say and what isnt. we have come such a long way since the early days, i remember programems like 'love thy neighbour' which was totally racist. now what gets me is programees like 'goodness graicous me'. its ok for them to be racist with their porteayal of english people, however if an english comedy programme was derogaitive about indians there would be hell to pay.

now some people can not help fearing foreigners, its called xenophobia, its a fear that cant be helped. are these people racist? no they are not.

basically i am tired about hearing all this racist cr@p, its gone too far and it is now a reverse racism, where people before coulndt care about a persons colour, the same person is now out voting for the BNP because of the preferential treatment given to asians in particular parts of the country. im Oldham three years ago the town hall could not fly St Georges cross on St Georges day for fear of upsetting the asians however if you drive rounfd there then you will see pakistani flags all over the place. if a white person found them offensive they would not be removed.

the main problem is integration, when someone wont intergrate into their wider society then they will be viewed with suspicion.

a few years ago the Met Commisioner was accused of racism when he said 70% od street crime in London was commited by blacks. he was stating a fact however he was accused of racism. if he said 30% was comitted by whites then that would be ok. too much attention is being drawn to it by people who have a chip on their shoulder, just get a life an get on with it

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