Liverpool FC Forum

by **Reg** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:09 pm

We´re in november, its a tough season both in the league and europe. Its not teh first time,

Realistically its going to be difficult to turn it round.

Already we have endless threads about sacking Rafa, the clubs gone to shít and how its the end of the world. Put together it runs into hundreds of pages.

Are we going to continue with this negative "I´m not happy" drivel for the next 9-10 months until the new season start?

Are we going to slag off the manager after every game we draw or lose and say it was a fluke if we win?

Are we going to call for his head in endless new threads?

If we are then we have to realise this forum is dead, its run its course because its not a place where poeple can come for open minded, enjoyable banter, debate, joking and fun. Its boring, depressing and dominated by a few sad posters who seem determined to undermine everything the manager, the bootroom, the players and club do.

Mods, please promote either a more open minded approach or invite posters to leave. Otherwise you´re going to see more long time members and good lads driven away.

Lets not kill this forum, its been fun in the past.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:49 pm

Well, I posted this in another thread but it speaks to this issue:

One of the biggest problems with this place (from a discussion point of view) is polarization, IMO. Fair and balanced assessments of the kind generated by the likes of Scottbott, John Craig, Dundalk, Andy G, LFC2007 and several others (sorry if I missed you, you know who you are ) get overshadowed by dozens of people going to extremes. Either Rafa's a "bit dim" or, as we read above, "has well and truly f.ucked us" making us "worse than we were 5 years ago" or he can never do any wrong and every setback is down to bad fortune, blind refs, beachballs, the owners or individual players that he somehow hasn't had anything to do with buying or training. Lunacy! Of course, when the discussion gets as polarized as it has, the insults and wind-ups fly and we're party to the internet version of a shouting match. It would be a breath of fresh air if the lunatics stopped running the asylum for an hour or two on occasion and some insightful football discussion broke out.

So, Reg, if your point is to encourage a higher level of discussion, I couldn't agree more. We sadly need some real engagement with the issues facing the club at the moment rather than just spleen-venting or tubthumping. With that said, it seems that one or two people--your good self perhaps included mate--are of the opinion that being critical about our current situation should not get an airing on here and that's where I disagree. I think we have been on a truly awful run of form of late and I think it's simply honest to say so and to come up with some suggestions as to what's been going on. In reality, that means evaluating the manager, since the buck does indeed stop with him. I know it winds some people up to see all of this discussion about Rafa but, truthfully, he's the hot topic right now. Why would we not be talking about the manager on a Liverpool forum after a run of 6 loses in the last 8 games? It's a terrible run of form and not something that can be swept under the rug.

by **tonyeh** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:56 pm

Seconded.

Reg, you may not like the fact that some people don't hold Benitez up to the same light as you and if that's the case argue your point as to why the people who are critical of him are wrong (in your opinion).

Besides, it's not as if it's all of a sudden that people have questioned Benitez. It's been happening for years, so I don't know why you and some other posters are getting fidgety over it, TBH.

by **Reg** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:02 pm

Bob theres nowt wrong with intelligent and constructive criticism, what I´m refering to is the surge of spam style anti Rafa bile thats been posted in the last few weeks which is not constructive, considered, nor entertaining. Its' swamped the forum so it defeats what you want and hope for in terms of intelligent discussion and descends into suicidal whinging which on an internet forum, achieves nothing.

My allegience is to the club and manager, not a forum that is strangling itself through the inability of members to realise when the critical 'enough' point has been reached in the moaning stakes.

Its not a question of whether its 'right or wrong' but one of if it remains this intense and negative then like in any relationship, its going to put people off and drive them away.

by **Reg** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:06 pm

Tonyeh, I hope my above post answers your point - people CAN argue intelligently against Benitez and maybe they´re right, but lets not swamp the forum with 58 threads on the same subject. We have one T&T thread of 700 pages, lets have the same single 'We hate Rafa' thread and let that run to 700 pages. ie put all the shíte in a single thread! :laugh:

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:08 pm

On the topic of multiple Rafa threads, Reg does have a point. With that in mind, I've done some editing and pruning as follows:

1) The "Sack Him" thread is now your one-stop shop for venting and counter-venting, whinging, wailing, gnashing of teeth and all other passionate outbursts related to Rafa (pro or anti)

2) Owzat's latest thread on Rafa has been reimagined as the "Official Rafa Benitez Thread" -- the place for (hopefully) more sober, balanced and in-depth discussion about Rafa's successes and setbacks as a manager. For those that want to properly analyze and discuss the manager, that's the place to go and I think Owzat's parameters are a quite useful starting point. I'll be watching that thread closely to make sure that it is not inundated with one-liners, wind-ups, handbags or blanket throwing and offending posts will be removed for the sake of the thread.

Hopefully this will go some way toward fostering some good discussion about Rafa, whilst still providing a thread for those who must simply vent their frustrations with the state of things. Your cooperation in keeping Rafa discussion to these threads is greatly appreciated.

by **Reg** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:15 pm

Thanks for your swift response and well considered solution Bob, one sensible thread and one for venting should do it. :cool:

by **tonyeh** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:16 pm

Well, it does in a way Reg. But I don't agree (sorry!). I think people should be able to start threads on what they feel. I also disagree that the critical threads have been "bile". In fact, I've found them to be rather restraint in the main. You should look at some other football forums, it would be an eye opener.

I also disagree with "My allegience is to the club and manager...". That's fair enough, if it's your stance. However, mine and I'd wager many other Liverpool fans is "My allegience is to the club." Full stop.

I think Bob is correct, in that in the face of such appaling results and incredibly dodgy decisions, serious questions are going to be asked of the manager and it's only to be expected.

if some people can't take that, then maybe newkit isn't the place for them. Or at least not the place for them to be on now.

by **Reg** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:23 pm

tonyeh wrote:You should look at some other football threads, it would be an eye opener.
.
.
.
if some people can't take that, then maybe newkit isn't the place for them. Or at least not the place for them to be on now.

Tonyeh, I read and post in one LFC forum - this one. I do so because the standard of exchange in the past has been enjoyable, opinionated and well written - hence I dont read the over-excited tabloid style other forums. This is where I prefer to be.

As you state, if people cant take it - they, we, I, will walk away, not somewhere else but just get on with life supporting the reds but without internet exchanges.

I guess at the end of the day we all get our kicks in different ways.

by **kazza** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:35 pm

Reg wrote:Bob theres nowt wrong with intelligent and constructive criticism, what I´m refering to is the surge of spam style anti Rafa bile thats been posted in the last few weeks which is not constructive, considered, nor entertaining. Its' swamped the forum so it defeats what you want and hope for in terms of intelligent discussion and descends into suicidal whinging which on an internet forum, achieves nothing.

My allegience is to the club and manager, not a forum that is strangling itself through the inability of members to realise when the critical 'enough' point has been reached in the moaning stakes.

Its not a question of whether its 'right or wrong' but one of if it remains this intense and negative then like in any relationship, its going to put people off and drive them away.

Absolutely 100% correct, besides showing a little bias towards positivity is never a bad thing is it?

Reading "we are sh1t" is as incorrect as reading " we rule the world" but the latter is easier to swallow and does not antagonize (or shouldn't). Many get offended when they hear we are sh1t, I doubt many get offended to hear we rule the world. I use two extremes but the point is still valid. Measured critisism, well there is nothing wrong with that.

by **fivecups** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:07 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Well, I posted this in another thread but it speaks to this issue:

One of the biggest problems with this place (from a discussion point of view) is polarization, IMO. Fair and balanced assessments of the kind generated by the likes of Scottbott, John Craig, Dundalk, Andy G, LFC2007 and several others (sorry if I missed you, you know who you are ) get overshadowed by dozens of people going to extremes. Either Rafa's a "bit dim" or, as we read above, "has well and truly f.ucked us" making us "worse than we were 5 years ago" or he can never do any wrong and every setback is down to bad fortune, blind refs, beachballs, the owners or individual players that he somehow hasn't had anything to do with buying or training. Lunacy! Of course, when the discussion gets as polarized as it has, the insults and wind-ups fly and we're party to the internet version of a shouting match. It would be a breath of fresh air if the lunatics stopped running the asylum for an hour or two on occasion and some insightful football discussion broke out.

So, Reg, if your point is to encourage a higher level of discussion, I couldn't agree more. We sadly need some real engagement with the issues facing the club at the moment rather than just spleen-venting or tubthumping. With that said, it seems that one or two people--your good self perhaps included mate--are of the opinion that being critical about our current situation should not get an airing on here and that's where I disagree. I think we have been on a truly awful run of form of late and I think it's simply honest to say so and to come up with some suggestions as to what's been going on. In reality, that means evaluating the manager, since the buck does indeed stop with him. I know it winds some people up to see all of this discussion about Rafa but, truthfully, he's the hot topic right now. Why would we not be talking about the manager on a Liverpool forum after a run of 6 loses in the last 8 games? It's a terrible run of form and not something that can be swept under the rug.

Good posts Bob and completely agree, there must be discussion about our current situation but surely everyone realises there are arguements for AND against Rafa, certain players, our financial spending and should realise that others opinion may differ from theirs.

BTW, have you seen your thread titled 'How much have we really spent?'. I was trying to find it to add the BHB post and a recent Tomkins piece but couldn't locate it. There was a lot of good info about spending by LFC and other clubs.

by **Emerald Red** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:43 pm

It's getting ridiculous. By all means have your wee moans and groans about the form of late. Have a dig at the manager by all means. We've all done it. I've done it. But some of the absolute sh*te I've read in here the past 7 days shows just how fickle our support has become.

by **andy_g** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:02 pm

kazza wrote:Absolutely 100% correct, besides showing a little bias towards positivity is never a bad thing is it?

Reading "we are sh1t" is as incorrect as reading " we rule the world" but the latter is easier to swallow and does not antagonize (or shouldn't). Many get offended when they hear we are sh1t, I doubt many get offended to hear we rule the world. I use two extremes but the point is still valid. Measured critisism, well there is nothing wrong with that.

don't agree with you there.

obviously shouting 'we rule the world' might engage a few more happy synapses than the other extreme but it is equally inaccurate. what spoils intelligent discussion is extremism of any persuasion - be it positive or negative.

i actually find it quite annoying when people bang on about torres being the best striker in the world because i don't think he is (though of course i think he's exceptional etc etc etc) - and i find it equally annoying when people talk about voronin (for example) as a piece of sh!t and all that.

what's wrong with sensibly and objectively debating the sensible ground which is closer to the middle?

nice bit of modding by the way, bob

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:08 pm

fivecups wrote:BTW, have you seen your thread titled 'How much have we really spent?'. I was trying to find it to add the BHB post and a recent Tomkins piece but couldn't locate it. There was a lot of good info about spending by LFC and other clubs.

Here you go, mate.

LINK

by **Igor Zidane** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:10 pm

I'm taking a sabatical . doing my head in this site at the mo , infact everything to do with LFC is doing my head in . Truth hurts maybe ? i dunno ! :down:

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