Liverpool FC Forum

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:50 am

Lets go round again .

Its llike de ja vu every day .

by **banana** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:56 am

lakes10 wrote:
milou wrote:
lakes10 wrote:Where is our squad depth?

sold!!! end of thread

It is certainly not end of thread.. not for me.

why sell bellamy & crouch after carefully selecting them before buying them?

do u think a tactical guru like rafa doesn't know voronin, babel and n'gog are nowhere near being good enough?

Or you think there is an underlying problem to have to sell before buying?

Do u really think he could have kept bellamy, crouch and torres in the same team given our financial situation?

I again disclaim i am NOT defending him but wanna discuss the truth behind all these "irrational" buying & selling one year after another. Is there no logic in rafa's thinking?

dont get me started mate, in my view Rafa has only ever taken players to out club that he feels can play in the CL. his buying has been very poor.

if he is told that we have a good player but he thinks they are not he will sell them.

Rafa has never been the man to win the prem for Liverpool and never will be, he built a good team the other year and and when they did not win the CL he started selling them off.

has nothing to do with money, he has taken 67 players to this club and for us not to have any back player that cut it is shocking and in my view he has just shown how worong he has got things.

if you wish to win the CL in the next few years then yes keep him, but if you wish to see us win the prem in the next 4 years he must go. and go now so we can get a manager in that can take a good look at the team and have the ime to work out who to keepo and who to sell so next year is not a write off aswell.

Unfortunately lakes your understanding of the game is weak. Rafa and the team almost made a miracle happen last year. Liverpool challenging for the league with 1/4 of Fergies, Wengers and Abramovich's money.

It is criminal that it almost succeeded.

The difference between Liverpool and Man U is equal to the difference between Liverpool and Birminghan. You don't see Birmingham dominating Liverpool do you. Still you expect us to dominate Man United?

If we follow your path it will mean a permanent destruction of this club and we may never return to the top.

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:00 am

Benny The Noon wrote:Lets go round again .

Its llike de ja vu every day .

With respect I don't think it is. I've listened to a whole stack of people go on about money on here for weeks, and I've argued the toss with them and in all honesty the thing is done. Since the begining the real reason we lack depth has been fecking obvious to anybody who is bothered to look at it, but I thought we might as well do the money arguments first. I have waited with baited breath for one of the pro-Rafalites to bring up the real reason, but none of you have so I thought I'd do it for you.

The reason we don't have depth is that we haven't been as good as Man Utd and Arsenal at developing young players. Chelsea are different in the sense that they bought a squad with some extremely shrewd but expensive buying from Ranieri, Mourinho and Grant.

Now. As I say, we can argue all day about who's fault it is that we haven't produced enough young players, it's even quite possible that we are in the process of addressing the problem, but THAT and only that, is the reason.

Not a rehash of what's been said before, it's a new theory cos half of the forum has been barking up completely the wrong tree in their desperation to defend the manager. It isn't money, it's youth policy. If you don't believe me, look at Arsenal and Man Utd's squads.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:03 am

You maybe trying to look at things differently Michael and fair play to you - unfortunatly others dont - its the same old ssame old.

I agree with most of what you are sayng - many reasons the squad is weak - money is one of those reasons along with others - even with the kids arsenal spent 15 mil on two kids , Man Utd spent 20 mil on two kids - can we spent that much on kids for the future ?

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:15 am

Benny The Noon wrote:You maybe trying to look at things differently Michael and fair play to you - unfortunatly others dont - its the same old ssame old.

I agree with most of what you are sayng - many reasons the squad is weak - money is one of those reasons along with others - even with the kids arsenal spent 15 mil on two kids , Man Utd spent 20 mil on two kids - can we spent that much on kids for the future ?

Mate we spent 11 million on Ryan Babel who was a raw kid. We spent 5-8 million on Lucas who was an unknown kid. We've bought lots of kids as well, the issue is that ours haven't trained on like theirs have.

We bought Babel, they bought Walcott. Babel had actually more going for him, he was in Ajax's first team and had played at age group International level. They bought Walcott from Southamptons team after a dozen games or something daft. So far, Walcott looks like he'll be the better player.

Babel for me though is a classic example and probably epitomises where our problems lie. Has he got raw talent? well you couldn't see his goal against Lyons and say no. He's got pace to burn, a trick and a bullet shot. He's as raw as feck though with a very dodgy attitude. Has he improved while we've had him, have we nurtured him, played him, helkped him? I don't think we have. He's played 80% of his games for us on the left wing when he's right footed and has never really been given a run in the team (except for a period before we bought Riera). Would he have done any better at another club? Who knows. Would he have done worse?

We have to get better at developing players. Johnny Evans, Darren Fletcher, the Italian striker, Foster, the Nevilles, Brown, Giggs, Scholes etc etc. Practically the whole of Arsenals first team squad. That is the missing link, it isn't money.

We've had plenty enough money to compete, and we have a good team. I don't even say we've wasted heaps of money, I think we've bought quite well. The issue is, are we maximising the resources available to us? We were second four points off the top last season, so the resources available to us aren't too bad. Are we using them to their full potential.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:20 am

babel had already had the experience of playing at the high level when we bought him - international and europe and was bought for the first team as opposed to buying players like tosic etc who were bought solely for the reserves for the future same with walcott and ramsey etc - the mancs spent 17 mil on nani , 17 mil on anderson . they spent nearly 140 mil on a total of just 6 players because they could - we had to spread the money we have a bit more thinly across the board .

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:30 am

But we've still spent more than them mate, but anyway I'm not discussing spending as it's the reddest of red herrings. Babel was unproven (and is the kind of player I'm on about, he didn't walk straight into the first team), as was Lucas. In both cases, we paid extremely good money for them. Neither IMHO has developed to the extent where you describe them as being sparkling buys. We need to find some of those. On the subject of brilliant buys, we need to find more of em and not just in young players. Evra at 5 million, Vidic at 7 million, Van Der Sar at 2 million, Van Persie at 3 million, Adebayor at 3 million etc etc. I know people will dispute the figures but it's not important, we need to find some more of those. For me the only ones of our players who even close close to that category are Reina at 6 million, Agger at 5 million and Benayoun at 5 million. Adebayor though went for 25 million, Van Persie woud fetch a similar fee. Evra is arguably the best left back in the Prem, Vidic one of the best centre halves, Van Der Sar one of the best keepers.

Anyways, that aside it's young players and unknowns making the squad stronger which is the main difference for me.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:37 am

Babel did walk straight into the first team . 49 appearances in his first year at the club for the first team .

Lucas wasnt expected to play much first team football in his first season but due to injuries he did - and i know most will disagree with me he is starting to develop a lot more in the last month or so.

Yes i know both arsenal and man utd have got some good players on good fees - Vidic we went for but didnt get and got agger instead - evra was valued at 10 mil the season before but had an injury and loss of form and taggert took a risk they paid of very well - wouldnt say he is bet left back in the country as think both cole and clichy are better.

For all those players that arsenal have got for good fees and kids they still havent won a trophy in 5 years and still finished below Liverpool 3 out of five seasons and nearly missing out on CL spot twice .

by **milou** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:40 am

bigmick wrote:Money is always a factor, it is with any team. Obviously, if you gave Rafa or anybody else the kind of money Man City have shelled out over the last 12 months, their chances of doing well significantly increase and it would be silly to pretend otherwise. Obviously if Rafa had signed David Villa, David Silva, Mathew Upson and Diego for a combined total of 94 million quid, as well as signing Aquilani and Glen Johnson, we'd have a stronger squad than we have now. Mind you, if Man Utd had bought those four players, they'd have a stronger squad than they've got now as well.

This is what I can't understand with people when they continually go on about money and "primary targets". I should think David Villa is a "primary target" for just about every manager, Benzema was a "primary target" for the Mancs, that Chamoukh or whatever the feck his name is was a "primary target" for Arsenal, that Pato a "primary target" for Chelsea. Even Man City didn't get their "primary target" of Kaka either, there's not a manager alive that signs every single player he tries to get and Rafa is no different.

I know people froth at the mouth when I say it, but it has to be said since we're discussing money nonetheless. we have spent more money than both Manchester United and Arsenal since Rafa has been the manager at Liverpool Football Club, a period stretching over five and a half seasons. Now the reason we haven't got as strong a squad as either is quite simple and I'll write it here now. People will go apolpleptic with rage at it, but this, and only this, is the reason:

Because we haven't been as successful at bringing young players through the ranks. I'll write it again for those who can't read too well in the hope it might seep through, it's because we haven't been as successful at bringing young players through the ranks. Now, we can argue all day long about who's fault that is. Wecan be optimistic that we are about to see a burst of youngsters coming though, or we can be pessimistic and say it's unlikely. It probably deserves a thread all on it's own, but there it is. The sooner we stop bleating about money on here the better, because given the fact we have spent more than our rivals it clearly isn't just a question of money. It's a question of spotting raw talent early, before it costs you too much money. It's then a question of nurturing it and improving the talent which is present.

Once you have good players, even if they don't play every week it's about making them feel part of a squad, loving them a little, geeing them up and giving them a cuddle from time to time. Until we get better at spotting raw talent and at nurturing it if we find some, and then keeping everyone happy, we will always be deficient from a squad point of view. Argue all you like about who's fault all that is that we don't do it better, but money is by no means the primary reason and it's time we stopped blubbing into the wrong handkerchief.

Some interesting points u had there. I agree with some of it but not all. I know this discussion will get a bit controversial.. whatmore on the back of a series of poor results.

First up, I am not even suggesting that it is a must we have a rich Russian or Saudi as a pre-requisites to succeed, although I think practically EVERYONE (geniuses and idiots all included) will agree it will give a huge hand. Didn't we win UCL with a mediocre team? Didn't Portsmouth win FA cup with a supposedly inferior team?

With regards to your points about us spending more than man utd (arsenal is a given bcos of the genius of wenger in the transfer market), i am not very sure abt that TBH. Without going into details.. it is difficult to comprehend how a team with nani, anderson, carrick, owen hargreaves as their SQUAD players could have spent less than us. The combined fee of Rio+Rooney+Berbatov alone is £90m!

Maybe their re-buidling was already well and under-way when rafa took over in 2005 and they require less spending after 2005?

We may have done a lot of buying & selling over the past 5 years but the net spend as pointed out accurately was only £83m in 5 years or £16.6m/year. Hardly a huge figure.

But your points about our failed youth policy is spot on. I don't know why some of our more promising youngsters are not even given the chance to come thru.. with the exception of insua.

i think some of you guys missed the point of my thread.. Let's try this simple questions shall we?

1. Do you think some of the players we sold (say
Bellamy, Garcia, Cisse, Crouch) would still have been here if rafa has more money to play with?! And if they do, would we be better off right now? Could we have won no 19 last season?

My answers are Yes, Yes, Yes.

2. Could man utd still won what they won if their owners insist they sell carrick before buying hargreaves? or sell Rooney before buying Berbatov?

My answer is No.

So money is an issue. Not the only one.. but a major one.

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:47 am

Benny The Noon wrote:For all those players that arsenal have got for good fees and kids they still havent won a trophy in 5 years and still finished below Liverpool 3 out of five seasons and nearly missing out on CL spot twice .

They have, but Wenger is actually in profit on transfers and if you look at where their club is placed to go forward and where we are, it would take the rosiest of rose tinted spectacles to conclude that we are in a stronger position even in the short term.

Wenger is something of a one off and I've often said it's unfiar on our manager really to compare him in that sense, I'm simply offering it up as you're doing the comparison thing yourself. They have a team today which doesn't include a single player which was in it when Rafa arrived at Liverpool and they've built it for a net profit.

IMHO it's delusional to kid ourselves that we are in the ascendancy over Arsenal right now, you only have to open your eyyes to see it isn't the case. That's not a pro or anti Rafa statement, it's just a statement of footballing fact.

How do we address it is the issue, not whether or not it is so.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:50 am

But the footballing facts show that last season we were above them by a fair distance mick and i expect them to tail off again this season like they always do .And despite our poor start we are only 4 points behind them currently

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:53 am

Benny The Noon wrote:But the footballing facts show that last season we were above them by a fair distance mick and i expect them to tail off again this season like they always do .

But our objective is not to finish above arsenal, it's to win trophies. My point is quite simply that as things stand, over this season and the next couple to follow it, they have significantly more chance of winning trophies than we do IMHO. Equally, fall away or not I expect them to finish above us in the league this season.

Anyway there's no point in arguing about it. In my view there is absolutely no comparison whatsoever in the relative strength of the two squads, not even inlcuding the kids and unknowns, but we'll just have to agree to differ.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:58 am

Then they have a severe cause of lots of sytle but no substance . and i think they will suffer thier normal winter spring months yip when they need to fight and dont have a veira in to do it and i think we will finish above them if we get our act together.

by **Paul C** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:02 pm

Problem with Benitez is not what he has spent but whats he's bought with the money and the amount of money he has spent on 'players for the future' which have never developed and been sold off (Anderson and Hobbs spring to mind).

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:09 pm

There is always a gamble with kids - but to be fair a profit has been made on both .

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