Liverpool FC Forum

by **milou** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:27 am

I received no response from my previous post in another thread.. Exactly the same reason why I went away for a while (but never stopped reading). There are simply too many silly one-liners & petty exchanges these days - pages after pages.

There are some relevant questions raised here.. so please do discuss.

Well here is my take on our current situation...

Anybody who thinks our current problem is not majorly related (albeit not entirely) to money is deluding yourself IMHO. Just look at Chelsea and Man City who had the dough to spend big.. See what they can achieve almost instantly? How about Man Utd who can afford to buy carrick (carrick for goodness sake!) for £19m?! Or having the leeway to "allow" a £18m-rated Owen Hargreaves to go injured FOREVER!?

Didn't we (the yanks included) also identify the problem of our less-than-maximized stadium capacity? What happens now? Project stopped indefinitely bcos of lack of funds. Mind you, it means we are collecting MILLIONS less than the likes of Man Utd & Arsenal for EVERY home match. Multiple by the no of years.. You do the sums. You estimate the damage.

And I have not heard of any club that CANNOT sack someone bcos it has no money to pay-off the manager! Never ever!

Is it not clear enough that money is a f'ucking real & obvious underlying problem we now have in our club?

After you accepted this FACT, then we are left with the question "could rafa have done better given the smaller budget to work with?" Sure he can.. and should. But I would argue that he had found his fair share of gems along the way.. eventhough some of his transfers are really bad (keanegate being the most obvious one). But every manager makes mistakes anyway.

What bothers most of us is the now blatant fact that he should have kept Bellamy, Alonso, Crouch, Cisse, Sissoko, Garcia, Arbeloa, Keane, etc. Even the obvious flops like Morientes & Pennant seem better bet than some of our current players!

Or COULD he?

Surely even an idiot knows they are better than most of what we have now.. let alone a top notch manager like Rafa?! If you are gunning for titles & trophies, on a long term rebuilding plan - SURELY u buy carefully and keep majority of them along the way? Then why would you (as meticulous & calculative as Rafa is known to be) buy a player one year only to move him on 1 or 2 years later?!

Sure.. some of them wanted to leave. But I think most are "shipped out" to free up funds to buy more expensive & presumably better players.. In other words, there is simply no money to get Torres if we still have Bellamy & Garcia.. and bcos money already spent on Torres, we must get Voronin bcos he is free! Similar, no reira without selling crouch, etc etc.

It would be equivalent for Man Utd to having to sell Fletcher just to fund the purchase of Owen Hargraves. Or letting go Rooney before he can afford berbatov (who is far from a major success for £30m). Or selling Ronaldo before they could buy Nani & Anderson. Now tell me what trophies Man Utd would have won in the past 3 seasons?!

So we are now left with a very strong first 11 (most people will admit it is a title-winning team) but absolutely no depth. And when luck plays a fool on us with more than half of our first teamers out injured/unfit/off form.. we are f'ucking screwed!

Just imagine hypothetically, what IF the glazers bought us but G&H bought Man Utd instead? Would we have a better squad now, even with rafa still in-charge (since somebody put all blames on the gaffer)? Would we still have Bellamy, Couch, Garcia, etc to step in when we need them to? Would we have won no 19 having gone so close last season with torres & gerrard out injured most of the time?

Don't get me wrong here.. I am as mad as anyone about our recent results and I think Rafa sometimes really made a fool of his selections & tactics. But can you really blame him for "prioritizing" on UCL? An early exit will spell even more trouble for his job security and a club which in serious financial ruin.

For the record, I am neither pro or anti rafa but but I am just giving a real perspective of the big picture here. And I actually think rafa's time is almost up (provided we have the cash to let him go!) and if he leaves, King Kenny will take over - He loves LFC too much not to at least be the care-taker.

YNWA.

by **Owzat** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:44 am

Rafa put all his eggs in one basket in the summer, then found the pot was empty when he needed to replace Sami. The squad depth issue should have been dealt with by now, Rafa has been here FIVE seasons already and the squad seems as weak as it has ever been. Maybe he hasn't been able to buy Mascheranos (£18.6m), Torres' (£21), Keanes (£20.3m), Johnsons (£17.5m) and Aquilanis (£20m) as much as he'd have liked, or at all before Mascherano was bought, but there should have been a gradual build up of good players even if only good squad players. But they've come and gone for various reasons, the lack of good players coming up through the ranks is also hitting harder than perhaps we stop and take stock of. I think someone at the club needs to sort the scouts out, and I don't mean the dib dib dib brigade, I mean those scouts that we send out to find talent. Some on here say good things about the likes of Nemeth and Pacheco but where are those players? Arsenal and the mancs have brought in kids, maybe paid for one or two in the case of the mancs, but they're getting better use of their kids than we are because their kids are better.

Perhaps the issues not only with the owners and "no money", as much with the scouts, running of the academy, manager in terms of tactics, signings, substitutions, excuses etc and generally the club is being run poorly from top to bottom. You can always find an excuse for anything, the manager has two games in a row with Torres. I notice Torres was taken off on Saturday at 1-1 because Rafa would rather 'a player miss 30 mins than miss weeks or months' yet last night at 0-0 Torres was kept on until Babel scored and then, shock horror, off trots Torres after 87 mins. So it's imperative he isn't risked on Saturday when we're not winning, but when we need to win on Wednesday he is kept on until Rafa thinks the game is won........................................

by **milou** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:43 am

Owzat wrote:Rafa put all his eggs in one basket in the summer, then found the pot was empty when he needed to replace Sami. The squad depth issue should have been dealt with by now, Rafa has been here FIVE seasons already and the squad seems as weak as it has ever been. Maybe he hasn't been able to buy Mascheranos (£18.6m), Torres' (£21), Keanes (£20.3m), Johnsons (£17.5m) and Aquilanis (£20m) as much as he'd have liked, or at all before Mascherano was bought, but there should have been a gradual build up of good players even if only good squad players. But they've come and gone for various reasons, the lack of good players coming up through the ranks is also hitting harder than perhaps we stop and take stock of. I think someone at the club needs to sort the scouts out, and I don't mean the dib dib dib brigade, I mean those scouts that we send out to find talent. Some on here say good things about the likes of Nemeth and Pacheco but where are those players? Arsenal and the mancs have brought in kids, maybe paid for one or two in the case of the mancs, but they're getting better use of their kids than we are because their kids are better.

Perhaps the issues not only with the owners and "no money", as much with the scouts, running of the academy, manager in terms of tactics, signings, substitutions, excuses etc and generally the club is being run poorly from top to bottom. You can always find an excuse for anything, the manager has two games in a row with Torres. I notice Torres was taken off on Saturday at 1-1 because Rafa would rather 'a player miss 30 mins than miss weeks or months' yet last night at 0-0 Torres was kept on until Babel scored and then, shock horror, off trots Torres after 87 mins. So it's imperative he isn't risked on Saturday when we're not winning, but when we need to win on Wednesday he is kept on until Rafa thinks the game is won........................................

I understand the frustration. I am equally gutted.

But it is not the last few minutes of Torres' time which is the main issue here. It is the fact that we all know he is NOT fully fit and we still want/need him to play the whole match (not a minute less please!) bcos NOONE else is capable of rescuing us (except gerrard who is of cos also injured - talking about bad luck here). Where is our bellamy and crouch when we need them? Where are our joe coles, berbatovs, hargreaves?

It has been analysed in another thread that our total NET spend is just over £83m in 5 years (or £16.6m/year).. which is already almost the combined total of the 4 players u mentioned (minus keane of cos) - Mascheranos (£18.6m), Torres' (£21), Keanes (£20.3m), Johnsons (£17.5m) and Aquilanis (£20m).

You may then ask where does the money for kuyt, sktyel, reira, reina, benni, lucas, babel, etc come from? From the sale of other players (cisse, garcia, crouch, alonso. riise, sissoko, etc) - which we cannot afford to keep! Throw in a few free transfers (degen, voronin, aurellio).. there you have it - our LFC team!

It is of cos not so straightforward but the gist is there. If you are only given £16.6m a year to address a FEW problematic areas that we ALL can see (let alone rafa).. are you not forced to unwillingly sell players u just bought, leaving more gaps behind?

I would argue that rafa has done reasonably ok in the transfer market with the money he has been given. I think only Wenger (who is a genius in the transfer market) could have done better.

by **made in UK** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:05 am

I think even the most ardent Rafa fans wouldn't have the audacity to defend or even excuse his assemblage of our squad. Especially not after five years in the making.

It's criminal.

by **lakes10** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:10 am

Where is our squad depth?

sold!!! end of thread

by **milou** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:16 am

made in UK wrote:I think even the most ardent Rafa fans wouldn't have the audacity to defend or even excuse his assemblage of our squad. Especially not after five years in the making.

It's criminal.

i am not defending him. most certainly not after another shocking result when some of our players probably shouldn't even played for hull city, let alone LFC.

my question is CAN he actually afford not to sell some of these OBVIOUSLY better players (to him, to us, to any idiot!) in order to bring in better ones?

Is it not a money issue or is he just a lunatic buying and selling players like a monopoly game?

by **milou** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:23 am

lakes10 wrote:Where is our squad depth?

sold!!! end of thread

It is certainly not end of thread.. not for me.

why sell bellamy & crouch after carefully selecting them before buying them?

do u think a tactical guru like rafa doesn't know voronin, babel and n'gog are nowhere near being good enough?

Or you think there is an underlying problem to have to sell before buying?

Do u really think he could have kept bellamy, crouch and torres in the same team given our financial situation?

I again disclaim i am NOT defending him but wanna discuss the truth behind all these "irrational" buying & selling one year after another. Is there no logic in rafa's thinking?

by **made in UK** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:35 am

milou wrote:
made in UK wrote:I think even the most ardent Rafa fans wouldn't have the audacity to defend or even excuse his assemblage of our squad. Especially not after five years in the making.

It's criminal.

i am not defending him. most certainly not after another shocking result when some of our players probably shouldn't even played for hull city, let alone LFC.

my question is CAN he actually afford not to sell some of these OBVIOUSLY better players (to him, to us, to any idiot!) in order to bring in better ones?

Is it not a money issue or is he just a lunatic buying and selling players like a monopoly game?

Unfortunately it is a money issue NOW.

It is important however to remember that it hasn't always been like this. And the fairly liberal spending that took place a couple of seasons ago and prior to that; should of given us a fighting chance for our current prediciment.

by **Anfield's Finest** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:40 am

Is it me or do we seem to be repeating ourselves over and over again?

by **tubby** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:02 am

The thing is we are always having to sell before we can buy so all we end up doing is strengthening our starting 11 as oppose to our squad overall. This season was always a possibility. We just got lucky last season with injuries thats all.

by **milou** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:22 am

bavlondon wrote:The thing is we are always having to sell before we can buy so all we end up doing is strengthening our starting 11 as oppose to our squad overall. This season was always a possibility. We just got lucky last season with injuries thats all.

finally someone who sees thru the smokescreen and agrees with me..

that said, i am NOT saying rafa couldn't have done better with some of his dealings.. or his line-ups.. or his tactics.

i am just gutted bcos i am actually quite convinced we would have won it last season if we had the cash to keep and use some of the better players he sold.. SURELY rafa would have kept some of them given the choice. i know someone would mention keane but he was off-form and how we wish we had crouch/bellamy/garcia/cisse to stand in sometimes. for goodness sake... the mancs had ronaldo, tevez, berbatov & rooney to take turn to haunt the oppositions.. just imagine that! and we ran them so close they almost :censored:

in their pants.. just imagine the size of rafa's task with only ONE striker in torres (out injured occasionally too).

but that was LAST season.. we are found out big time this time round with torres, gerrard, agger, skytel, johnson, aqualini, aureilio, reira all taking turn to get injured!

and i haven't even mentioned some of our consistently reliable players who are way way below their normal high standard (mash, carra).

Result? Disaster.

by **spion** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:28 am

Can you hear that noise? It sounds like a penny dropping. Yesterday talksport were commenting on the fact that Liverpool are a "two man team" well after last nights game I think we really are a one man team. You see Torres without Gerrard is like a sports car without fuel, useless. A striker thrives on supply & that supply was stopped again last night. Saying that the depth will come through in the next three to four years. Liverpool reserves are looking good & Liverpool have a supply of talent to be used in the coming seasons. My doubt is if the owners sack the manager because when the new broom sweeps in they might stop the production of youth by reinventing the wheel.

by **lakes10** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:37 am

milou wrote:
lakes10 wrote:Where is our squad depth?

sold!!! end of thread

It is certainly not end of thread.. not for me.

why sell bellamy & crouch after carefully selecting them before buying them?

do u think a tactical guru like rafa doesn't know voronin, babel and n'gog are nowhere near being good enough?

Or you think there is an underlying problem to have to sell before buying?

Do u really think he could have kept bellamy, crouch and torres in the same team given our financial situation?

I again disclaim i am NOT defending him but wanna discuss the truth behind all these "irrational" buying & selling one year after another. Is there no logic in rafa's thinking?

dont get me started mate, in my view Rafa has only ever taken players to out club that he feels can play in the CL. his buying has been very poor.

if he is told that we have a good player but he thinks they are not he will sell them.

Rafa has never been the man to win the prem for Liverpool and never will be, he built a good team the other year and and when they did not win the CL he started selling them off.

has nothing to do with money, he has taken 67 players to this club and for us not to have any back player that cut it is shocking and in my view he has just shown how worong he has got things.

if you wish to win the CL in the next few years then yes keep him, but if you wish to see us win the prem in the next 4 years he must go. and go now so we can get a manager in that can take a good look at the team and have the ime to work out who to keepo and who to sell so next year is not a write off aswell.

by **loopyliverpool** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:39 am

Anfield's Finest wrote:Is it me or do we seem to be repeating ourselves over and over again?

Ditto...

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:46 am

Money is always a factor, it is with any team. Obviously, if you gave Rafa or anybody else the kind of money Man City have shelled out over the last 12 months, their chances of doing well significantly increase and it would be silly to pretend otherwise. Obviously if Rafa had signed David Villa, David Silva, Mathew Upson and Diego for a combined total of 94 million quid, as well as signing Aquilani and Glen Johnson, we'd have a stronger squad than we have now. Mind you, if Man Utd had bought those four players, they'd have a stronger squad than they've got now as well.

This is what I can't understand with people when they continually go on about money and "primary targets". I should think David Villa is a "primary target" for just about every manager, Benzema was a "primary target" for the Mancs, that Chamoukh or whatever the feck his name is was a "primary target" for Arsenal, that Pato a "primary target" for Chelsea. Even Man City didn't get their "primary target" of Kaka either, there's not a manager alive that signs every single player he tries to get and Rafa is no different.

I know people froth at the mouth when I say it, but it has to be said since we're discussing money nonetheless. we have spent more money than both Manchester United and Arsenal since Rafa has been the manager at Liverpool Football Club, a period stretching over five and a half seasons. Now the reason we haven't got as strong a squad as either is quite simple and I'll write it here now. People will go apolpleptic with rage at it, but this, and only this, is the reason:

Because we haven't been as successful at bringing young players through the ranks. I'll write it again for those who can't read too well in the hope it might seep through, it's because we haven't been as successful at bringing young players through the ranks. Now, we can argue all day long about who's fault that is. Wecan be optimistic that we are about to see a burst of youngsters coming though, or we can be pessimistic and say it's unlikely. It probably deserves a thread all on it's own, but there it is. The sooner we stop bleating about money on here the better, because given the fact we have spent more than our rivals it clearly isn't just a question of money. It's a question of spotting raw talent early, before it costs you too much money. It's then a question of nurturing it and improving the talent which is present.

Once you have good players, even if they don't play every week it's about making them feel part of a squad, loving them a little, geeing them up and giving them a cuddle from time to time. Until we get better at spotting raw talent and at nurturing it if we find some, and then keeping everyone happy, we will always be deficient from a squad point of view. Argue all you like about who's fault all that is that we don't do it better, but money is by no means the primary reason and it's time we stopped blubbing into the wrong handkerchief.

Liverpool FC Forum

Where is our squad depth? - Money talks...

Who is online