Liverpool FC Forum

by **Festy** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:11 am

Kerry07 wrote:
Owzat wrote:

His selection will be the prime reason Rafa is sacked.

Because Lucas is devoid of any talent, and there aint a single thing he is good at, he has single handedly destroyed the progress of the team on the field. Unfortunately hes in the most crucial position in the team, the link man between defence and attack who is there to keep possession, control the tempo and flow of the game..the brains of the team (what Alonso was). As the SOLITARY change in the team from last season, some aspects to the damage Lucas inflicts...

1.2008/09 season - With Alonso (2 league defeats all season).
...2009/10 season - With Lucas (6 defeats from 6 hardest games...and its only 21st October), we still have ManU Home & Away, Arsenal Home & Away, Man City Home & Away, Chelsea Home, Spurs Home, Villa Away...the Mersey Derbies, and countless other very difficult games. Also bear in mind, we've already played Burnley, Stoke, Hull at home.. only Wolves left is a gimme. It will get ALOT worse.

2.Lucas effect on the defence - while Alonso would sit infront of Carra and Agger and drop deep to receive the ball of them, giving them constant assurance, Lucas doesnt have the ability to do this as he HIDES, he passes and then will walk beside an opponent to avoid getting the pass back, avoids any responsibility as hes aware of his limitations. Because theres now no one infront of the defence to take the ball and orchestrate play, Carra and co now have to HOOF it... which of course gives it straight back to the opposition hence they are under FAR more pressure this season than the last FIVE (pre Alonso) as it invites attacks. Defence suffers.

2.Lucas effect on the attack - while Alonso would get the ball and then launch a 30-40 yard pass to a wide man or Gerrard/Torres on a regular basis, Lucas has no passing range hence the attackers are isolated as he starves them of ball (its the reason Gerrard now finds himself HAVING to come back deep to recieve the ball, and this removes him where hes at his most dangerous 30 yards from goal, less of a threat, and him moving back also further isolates Torres). Attack suffers.

Lucas, as a slow, static, 2 yard side pass merchant, who cant score, cant create, cant tackle (powder puff), no vision, no passing range, no talent... he is destroying the entire team like a virus, in that crucial midfield pivot position. The team is rudderless with him there, we have no method as we saw yet again tonight in our 6th defeat of the season, 4th defeat on the trot.. one more and its our worst run since 1953. We are not just losing (that can happen to quality teams), we are losing and having no control in games (which is deadly as theres no way you can change that with the current personel), its a team without a conductor (Alonso), and instead has a brazilian carthorse who expected to be sold in the Summer, this player and the damage he inflicts on the team, will untimately cost Rafa his job.

Absolutely top-class analysis Kelly. Couldn't agree more with you. That's just sums up our season really. :down:

On the other hand, god help all the Lucas advocates now. Come up and defend him now. I bet you guys have no evidence. You have lost the case I'm afraid. :no

by **Bretc** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:30 am

Kerry07 wrote:
Owzat wrote:

His selection will be the prime reason Rafa is sacked.

Because Lucas is devoid of any talent, and there aint a single thing he is good at, he has single handedly destroyed the progress of the team on the field. Unfortunately hes in the most crucial position in the team, the link man between defence and attack who is there to keep possession, control the tempo and flow of the game..the brains of the team (what Alonso was). As the SOLITARY change in the team from last season, some aspects to the damage Lucas inflicts...

1.2008/09 season - With Alonso (2 league defeats all season).
...2009/10 season - With Lucas (6 defeats from 6 hardest games...and its only 21st October), we still have ManU Home & Away, Arsenal Home & Away, Man City Home & Away, Chelsea Home, Spurs Home, Villa Away...the Mersey Derbies, and countless other very difficult games. Also bear in mind, we've already played Burnley, Stoke, Hull at home.. only Wolves left is a gimme. It will get ALOT worse.

2.Lucas effect on the defence - while Alonso would sit infront of Carra and Agger and drop deep to receive the ball of them, giving them constant assurance, Lucas doesnt have the ability to do this as he HIDES, he passes and then will walk beside an opponent to avoid getting the pass back, avoids any responsibility as hes aware of his limitations. Because theres now no one infront of the defence to take the ball and orchestrate play, Carra and co now have to HOOF it... which of course gives it straight back to the opposition hence they are under FAR more pressure this season than the last FIVE (pre Alonso) as it invites attacks. Defence suffers.

2.Lucas effect on the attack - while Alonso would get the ball and then launch a 30-40 yard pass to a wide man or Gerrard/Torres on a regular basis, Lucas has no passing range hence the attackers are isolated as he starves them of ball (its the reason Gerrard now finds himself HAVING to come back deep to recieve the ball, and this removes him where hes at his most dangerous 30 yards from goal, less of a threat, and him moving back also further isolates Torres). Attack suffers.

Lucas, as a slow, static, 2 yard side pass merchant, who cant score, cant create, cant tackle (powder puff), no vision, no passing range, no talent... he is destroying the entire team like a virus, in that crucial midfield pivot position. The team is rudderless with him there, we have no method as we saw yet again tonight in our 6th defeat of the season, 4th defeat on the trot.. one more and its our worst run since 1953. We are not just losing (that can happen to quality teams), we are losing and having no control in games (which is deadly as theres no way you can change that with the current personel), its a team without a conductor (Alonso), and instead has a brazilian carthorse who expected to be sold in the Summer, this player and the damage he inflicts on the team, will untimately cost Rafa his job.

I agree totally. Everytime I see Lucas play, I feel disgusted and sad that someone of such inferior quality is wearing the Liverpool jersey. And held in high regards by our manager. This is a joke.

by **Sir Roger** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:49 am

Festy wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:
Owzat wrote:

His selection will be the prime reason Rafa is sacked.

Because Lucas is devoid of any talent, and there aint a single thing he is good at, he has single handedly destroyed the progress of the team on the field. Unfortunately hes in the most crucial position in the team, the link man between defence and attack who is there to keep possession, control the tempo and flow of the game..the brains of the team (what Alonso was). As the SOLITARY change in the team from last season, some aspects to the damage Lucas inflicts...

1.2008/09 season - With Alonso (2 league defeats all season).
...2009/10 season - With Lucas (6 defeats from 6 hardest games...and its only 21st October), we still have ManU Home & Away, Arsenal Home & Away, Man City Home & Away, Chelsea Home, Spurs Home, Villa Away...the Mersey Derbies, and countless other very difficult games. Also bear in mind, we've already played Burnley, Stoke, Hull at home.. only Wolves left is a gimme. It will get ALOT worse.

2.Lucas effect on the defence - while Alonso would sit infront of Carra and Agger and drop deep to receive the ball of them, giving them constant assurance, Lucas doesnt have the ability to do this as he HIDES, he passes and then will walk beside an opponent to avoid getting the pass back, avoids any responsibility as hes aware of his limitations. Because theres now no one infront of the defence to take the ball and orchestrate play, Carra and co now have to HOOF it... which of course gives it straight back to the opposition hence they are under FAR more pressure this season than the last FIVE (pre Alonso) as it invites attacks. Defence suffers.

2.Lucas effect on the attack - while Alonso would get the ball and then launch a 30-40 yard pass to a wide man or Gerrard/Torres on a regular basis, Lucas has no passing range hence the attackers are isolated as he starves them of ball (its the reason Gerrard now finds himself HAVING to come back deep to recieve the ball, and this removes him where hes at his most dangerous 30 yards from goal, less of a threat, and him moving back also further isolates Torres). Attack suffers.

Lucas, as a slow, static, 2 yard side pass merchant, who cant score, cant create, cant tackle (powder puff), no vision, no passing range, no talent... he is destroying the entire team like a virus, in that crucial midfield pivot position. The team is rudderless with him there, we have no method as we saw yet again tonight in our 6th defeat of the season, 4th defeat on the trot.. one more and its our worst run since 1953. We are not just losing (that can happen to quality teams), we are losing and having no control in games (which is deadly as theres no way you can change that with the current personel), its a team without a conductor (Alonso), and instead has a brazilian carthorse who expected to be sold in the Summer, this player and the damage he inflicts on the team, will untimately cost Rafa his job.

Absolutely top-class analysis Kelly. Couldn't agree more with you. That's just sums up our season really.

On the other hand, god help all the Lucas advocates now. Come up and defend him now. I bet you guys have no evidence. You have lost the case I'm afraid.

Give him time, hes only young
You cant just blame him
Hes not used to that position
Hes being targeted by referees
His shorts are too tight
He shouldnt have cut his hair

Theres probably more but I cant be ars'ed...

by **Reg** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:53 am

Festy wrote:
Kerry07 wrote:
Owzat wrote:

His selection will be the prime reason Rafa is sacked.

Because Lucas is devoid of any talent, and there aint a single thing he is good at, he has single handedly destroyed the progress of the team on the field. Unfortunately hes in the most crucial position in the team, the link man between defence and attack who is there to keep possession, control the tempo and flow of the game..the brains of the team (what Alonso was). As the SOLITARY change in the team from last season, some aspects to the damage Lucas inflicts...

1.2008/09 season - With Alonso (2 league defeats all season).
...2009/10 season - With Lucas (6 defeats from 6 hardest games...and its only 21st October), we still have ManU Home & Away, Arsenal Home & Away, Man City Home & Away, Chelsea Home, Spurs Home, Villa Away...the Mersey Derbies, and countless other very difficult games. Also bear in mind, we've already played Burnley, Stoke, Hull at home.. only Wolves left is a gimme. It will get ALOT worse.

2.Lucas effect on the defence - while Alonso would sit infront of Carra and Agger and drop deep to receive the ball of them, giving them constant assurance, Lucas doesnt have the ability to do this as he HIDES, he passes and then will walk beside an opponent to avoid getting the pass back, avoids any responsibility as hes aware of his limitations. Because theres now no one infront of the defence to take the ball and orchestrate play, Carra and co now have to HOOF it... which of course gives it straight back to the opposition hence they are under FAR more pressure this season than the last FIVE (pre Alonso) as it invites attacks. Defence suffers.

2.Lucas effect on the attack - while Alonso would get the ball and then launch a 30-40 yard pass to a wide man or Gerrard/Torres on a regular basis, Lucas has no passing range hence the attackers are isolated as he starves them of ball (its the reason Gerrard now finds himself HAVING to come back deep to recieve the ball, and this removes him where hes at his most dangerous 30 yards from goal, less of a threat, and him moving back also further isolates Torres). Attack suffers.

Lucas, as a slow, static, 2 yard side pass merchant, who cant score, cant create, cant tackle (powder puff), no vision, no passing range, no talent... he is destroying the entire team like a virus, in that crucial midfield pivot position. The team is rudderless with him there, we have no method as we saw yet again tonight in our 6th defeat of the season, 4th defeat on the trot.. one more and its our worst run since 1953. We are not just losing (that can happen to quality teams), we are losing and having no control in games (which is deadly as theres no way you can change that with the current personel), its a team without a conductor (Alonso), and instead has a brazilian carthorse who expected to be sold in the Summer, this player and the damage he inflicts on the team, will untimately cost Rafa his job.

Absolutely top-class analysis Kelly. Couldn't agree more with you. That's just sums up our season really.

On the other hand, god help all the Lucas advocates now. Come up and defend him now. I bet you guys have no evidence. You have lost the case I'm afraid.

Theres Festy wallowing in his misery again. :rasp

by **akumaface** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 5:47 am

Since we sold Alonso, I was worried that we would be out of the race before the Aqua man can suit up and had Lucas in the middle. And now it seems it is becoming reality. Many were saying to give lucas a chance blah blah blah but when i asked if anyone would be willing to jepoardize this season to give Lucas that chance, no one answer the bell. It really hurting that our club is in a mess right now. We will never win anything if we have Lucas in the middle. Put Gerrard back in there and put Lucas on the bench.

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:33 pm

Ben Patrick wrote:I just want to say that i think Lucas has played well this season, well enough to justify his selection anyway.

Sense at last.

It's still laughable how much stick Lucas gets whether you think he's good enough or not. He's been better than Mascherano this season. I don't care what anyone says, Mascherano has been dreadful for the majority of this season. We've actually looked better with Gerrard and Lucas in central midfield.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:42 pm

stmichael wrote:We've actually looked better with Gerrard and Lucas in central midfield.

You sound like you're surprised Mick. We'd probably look better with Gerrard and you in midfield than we do with Masherano and Lucas.

by **tubby** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:52 pm

Too bad Lucas will have to take a back seat when Aquilani is fit.....or Javier even.

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:52 pm

bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:We've actually looked better with Gerrard and Lucas in central midfield.

You sound like you're surprised Mick. We'd probably look better with Gerrard and you in midfield than we do with Masherano and Lucas.

the point i'm making is that people are deluded if they think that lucas was supposed to be a replacement for alonso. it's not a fair comaprison as they're completely different players. what i don't understand is why we're playing exactly the same system as last season, even though that system fundamentally requires a passing player which we no longer have.

i just think mascherano gets away with murder at times because of what he is capable of when he's on his game. i'm more worried about what he's doing now and to be quite frank, he's not doing it.

by **tubby** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:54 pm

Lucas has actually looked better when he has not had to play that distributer role. He looks more comfortable going forward as he does often get into spaces. Too bad he won't get to play that role very much.

by **Festy** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:37 am

I've followed Alonso in the Madrid shirt a bit this season. Whenever he has the ball, every other Madrid player on the pitch gets in the forward attacking positions to receive a pin point Alonso pass. Nobody needs to be within 5 yards radius from Alonso when he has the ball. It doesn't matter where you are, Alonso will pick you with his vision and incredible passing ability and 80% of the time he'll look forward for a pass. Whereas in Lucas' case, if he has the ball and nobody's near 5 yards from him, then he passes straight back to the Gk/central defenders or sideways to the full backs. I can't recall a single meaningful attack coming from Lucas' pass this season. (there may be one or two I may have missed). 95% of his passes in a game are backwards or sideways. That is Mash's job, not Lucas'. :angry:

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:56 am

I agree with what you're saying mate, but in fairness it's like comparing an apple with a banana. Lucas isn't, never has been and never will be a distributor from midfield. He's almost certainly a sitter, a protector who possibly, just may be able to play box to box. Incidently I don't think he's Liverpool standard in any of the roles, but we're asking him to do a job which he plainly isn't up to. It's like asking Insua to play left wing, it kind of looks like it might be possible on the face of it but when you think about you just know it's a no-no.

by **Owzat** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:16 am

Lucas is a keep it simple kind of player, and never going to excel at any one thing. So for me he is not likely to satisfy the standards Liverpool and fans expect, he can do a decent job but he's not going to win many MOTM awards. The problem I have is people always pick on one or two scapegoats when Liverpool don't lose just because Lucas is playing, the rest, the supposedly 'better players', don't raise their game. So it's not so much Lucas holding the team back, more the supposedly 'good enough' players playing below their supposed capabilities. Or put another way, how can a team with supposedly good players like Reina, Carra, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Aurelio, Mascherano, Benayoun, Riera, Kuyt and, when fit, Gerrard and Torres, be not good enough JUST because Lucas is in the side?!?!?! That's like saying the England cricket team loses Tests because it includes ONE OF Bopara or Bell and the constant clamour for one or t'other to be dropped while others escape such clamours or eventualities. You don't blame the TEAM performance(s) on ONE player, especially not the one with the lowest levels of expectation. You don't expect much from Lucas, you should expect lots from other players named, yet Lucas is the one targeted. Same goes for Voronin, Babel and N'Gog, 'not good enough for Liverpool' yet funnily enough the man who signed all three never gets the blame.

For me the biggest fault in the whole thing is Rafa in terms of trying to play the same formation/system as last season with a player who is nothing special alongside a one dimensional player who in my books is massively over-rated. Straight away we've nothing in the middle of the park to run games, personally I don't see why we don't simply dump Lucas and play a second striker or Benayoun in a 4-1-4-1 formation (or 4-1-2-3 if you prefer). That or a 4-1-3-2 formation except we've limited options for a second striker that doesn't involve taking Kuyt off the right

by **Festy** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:18 am

I guess we'll have to wait till Aquaman replaces Lucas, just for the people to realize why all the good apples were being affected by one single bad apple.

by **The_Rock** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:38 am

bigmick wrote:I agree with what you're saying mate, but in fairness it's like comparing an apple with a banana.

..... you couldn't resist could you mick ?

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