Liverpool FC Forum

by **Gerrard30391** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:49 pm

It's all a bit strange really.

Last season he played high up the pitch, like a deep striker for want of a better word. He excelled there to.
However, this season he hasn't had the same sort of effect sat there. Is this because teams have done their homework on how to pick him up? Maybe, just maybe, we could be doing Gerrard and our opponents an injustice.

What interests me is, from where I was sat on Saturday, it seemed to me that he was much much deeper, well actually, he definitely was playing a lot lot deeper because Benny and Reira played so Kuyt filled in the hole behind Torres. Playing where he did on Saturday, seemed to give him a lot more freedom on the ball that he hasn't had so far this year. OK, we can argue that some of his passing in the first half was no better than Lucas', and in fact, his bad pass was the source of their first goal. But he still seemed to have more time and therefore he was more effective on Saturday.

by **JC_81** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:17 am

Sabre wrote:I wanted to ask you, in your opinion, why in the second half it was less of a mess than in the first half?

One reason is of course Fiore's intensity was lower, but was there any other reason?

I know you wanted Mick's opinion on this mate, but you're getting mine!

The reason we made Fiorentina look a bad team in the second half was that we played our natural game (or what our natural game has become this season). That is play with high intensity, press the opponents in their own half and generally play a more open style.

We are no longer a team that can sit back, soak up pressure and nick a 1-0, not at the moment anyway. The defence isn't good enough and the full backs play further up the pitch. There are gaps at the back and no one really shielding them. That's ok, because going forward we're far more of a threat and able to score against and beat any team when we're on song.

But when you are used to playing that way and then decide to sit back and play a slow tempo game away from home like we did last night it doesn't work. Fiorentina did to us what we should have done to them. High tempo, press high up the pitch and force mistakes.

It was a tactical mistake imo and we underestimated our opponents at first. It also has to be said that far too many individuals were having an off game.

Back to the thread topic though... Gerrard is playing as badly as I can remember for an extended run of games. Such is his class that he still looks decent, but by his standards he's nowhere near the level of last season. Perhaps that court case messed with his head, but for our sake he needs to sort it out soon.

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:55 am

supersub wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Sir Roger wrote:Gerrard had a stinker last night

I've no doubts that you are right mate. If you play two players in the centre of midfield who aren't up to the job of distributing the football to the players who play up front, the aforementioned strikers won't function.

Coincidently, Torres who has been setting the World on fire was quiet as well. Funnily enough, both him and Gerrard were also quiet in the first three league games as well. Some players do their best work off the ball, but players need to have it in order to win you football matches.

Aurelio/Lucas was never going to work. I know people will accuse me of speaking after the event but that's up to them, the selection was bonkers.

Gerrard gave the ball away but thats other players fault
Gerrard was pedestrian in the 1st half but that is down to other players
Torres and Gerrard have indifferent games etc and it's because of other players

Astounding.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:22 am

Yes I thought that was an odd post too Conn. Still, it would be a boring World if we all agreed with each other I suppose

.

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:50 am

bigmick wrote:Yes I thought that was an odd post too Conn. Still, it would be a boring World if we all agreed with each other I suppose .

What can I say, mick?

Extreme analogies seldom paint a full picture but rather only serves to demonstrate one's point.... regardless of the validity of that point. Going by that particular analogy.....

If we get stuffed 10-0 nil, it has to be the keeper's fault. Doesn't really matter if the gaffer decided to play with 10 strikers or the central defenders on the day were blind, lame and 4 foot 2!

Works both ways.... makes you wonder if some really understand how football is played. Do we really expect both Torres and Gerrard to abandon all game plans and take over the game as they please and to hell with the gaffer's tactics?

The gaffer messed up.... pure and simple, imo. Aurelio and Lucas in the middle didn't work at all and most would have expected that. Fiorentina played smart before and during the game. They made out like they were afraid of our attacking prowess following our recent victories in the premiership. Probably lulled us into a false sense of security and over-confidence. We disrespected them by selecting the team the way we did.

We got spanked because we got cute. Plain and simple.

What next? Why don't we do an Allardyce and play Pepe upfront to partner Skrtel.... perhaps put Nando in defence? After all the lad has pace to burn.... no striker in the world is going to outpace him are they? Maybe Gerrard in goal? God knows that's probably the only position he hasn't been tried at.... Possibilites are important, no?

Ludicrous decision. The saving grace is that it's the Champion's League and I generally don't put such an emphasis on this particular tournament.

by **supersub** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:46 am

my post had nothing to do with the Fiorentina game...so you missed the point there.

I merely indicated that Torres and Gerrard can have poor games too but for some reason certain "fans" will lay the blame for that on the other players or the manager and not on Torres and Gerrard themselves.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:08 am

Some "fans" would be better off letting it drop I reckon. Just agree to differ and move on, that's the best way.

by **Sir Roger** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:50 am

ConnO'var wrote:
bigmick wrote:Yes I thought that was an odd post too Conn. Still, it would be a boring World if we all agreed with each other I suppose .

What can I say, mick?

Extreme analogies seldom paint a full picture but rather only serves to demonstrate one's point.... regardless of the validity of that point. Going by that particular analogy.....

If we get stuffed 10-0 nil, it has to be the keeper's fault. Doesn't really matter if the gaffer decided to play with 10 strikers or the central defenders on the day were blind, lame and 4 foot 2!

Works both ways.... makes you wonder if some really understand how football is played. Do we really expect both Torres and Gerrard to abandon all game plans and take over the game as they please and to hell with the gaffer's tactics?

The gaffer messed up.... pure and simple, imo. Aurelio and Lucas in the middle didn't work at all and most would have expected that. Fiorentina played smart before and during the game. They made out like they were afraid of our attacking prowess following our recent victories in the premiership. Probably lulled us into a false sense of security and over-confidence. We disrespected them by selecting the team the way we did.

We got spanked because we got cute. Plain and simple.

What next? Why don't we do an Allardyce and play Pepe upfront to partner Skrtel.... perhaps put Nando in defence? After all the lad has pace to burn.... no striker in the world is going to outpace him are they? Maybe Gerrard in goal? God knows that's probably the only position he hasn't been tried at.... Possibilites are important, no?

Ludicrous decision. The saving grace is that it's the Champion's League and I generally don't put such an emphasis on this particular tournament.

John Craig:
"The reason we made Fiorentina look a bad team in the second half was that we played our natural game (or what our natural game has become this season). That is play with high intensity, press the opponents in their own half and generally play a more open style.

We are no longer a team that can sit back, soak up pressure and nick a 1-0, not at the moment anyway. The defence isn't good enough and the full backs play further up the pitch. There are gaps at the back and no one really shielding them. That's ok, because going forward we're far more of a threat and able to score against and beat any team when we're on song.

But when you are used to playing that way and then decide to sit back and play a slow tempo game away from home like we did last night it doesn't work. Fiorentina did to us what we should have done to them. High tempo, press high up the pitch and force mistakes.

It was a tactical mistake imo and we underestimated our opponents at first. It also has to be said that far too many individuals were having an off game."

I agree with both.
Rafa has a tendency to baffle sometimes. The side which annihilated Hull should have been the one to play Fiorentina. Same formation, same tactics. Obviously Hull arent as good as Fiorentina but we should be playing our strongest side as much as we can. Rafa worries too much about the opposition sometimes and caution can be a hindrance as well as a help. "Let the shackles off and smash them!!" should be our cry

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:52 am

Back to the thread topic though... Gerrard is playing as badly as I can remember for an extended run of games. Such is his class that he still looks decent, but by his standards he's nowhere near the level of last season. Perhaps that court case messed with his head, but for our sake he needs to sort it out soon.

I think he's not close to the level of last year, but he's level right now is not decent, it's very good. In the game of Fiorentina he made a control with the chest and going backwards that quite simply it looks easy because we're used to Gerrard but what it's very rare to see.

If anything I think he has suffered from the context (the rest of the team) and that explains a lot of why he doesn't look that good, but I'd say that supersub and some others that have said similar things in the past are right when they say that people gets a bit nervous when someone talks something negative about the captain. Meaning, when you comment a decission mistake, inmediatly after someone tells you that without him we'd be in sixth position, or without him we're nothing, and that's not quite the point. The point is talking about football, and yes, even the world class players have details to polish and mistakes, which I guess can be commented. It's difficult to comment a mistake of Gerrard without someone getting nervous.

I for one never have doubted Gerrard is the best player of the club, and out of the players I've watched in Liverpool, only Dalglish is more astounding to me, his skill is more "delicate" (I don't find words),his technique was absolutely great.

Cheers for the answer John, IMHO the problem was that when a team presses you up in the pitch you have to have answers. And we didn't know how to deal that, and I cannot blame Fabio Aurelio of that, but Rafa this time. In the second half Fiore made the mistake of giving meters to Aurelio and he sent some very good long balls.

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:55 am

Double post

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 10:12 am

In fairness the exchange earlier was nothing to do with anyone being "nervous" about Gerrard being criticised. He is like any other footballer, he has good games and bad games and probably more in between, average games than either extreme. The obvious rider in his particular case is that even on a bad day he's quite good compared to most, and on a good day he's miles better than most. Even on an average day he's far better than most, nothing "nervous" about admitting the obvious, he is only human.

Where the controversy has come from on this occasion is firstly the notion that all things within a football team are interlinked. Some people are obviously more ready to accept that than others. Would Alonso playing central midfield for instance rather than Aurelio make a difference to how well Torres and Gerrard play? My feeling is that most definately it would make a difference, whereas it appears that some people don't agree with that.

As for the "we would finish sixth without Gerrard" I think that would have been the case in the past. Nowadays, with Torres fit and scoring regularly we would probably finish higher than that. Were Torres to get injured though as well as Gerrard being absent, we would struggle to better sixth IMHO. As it is, it is more of a concern where we will finish WITH Gerrard than without him. It is my view that if we insist on continually proving my theory correct that central midfielders who aren't up to the job nullify your potent front two, we may struggle to finish fourth with both Gerrard and Torres playing regularly. Certainly on the four occasions we've isolated them up front so far this season, we've lost three times and managed to beat Stoke.

Some people evidently think that's a coincidence, and I don't agree. That's the discrepancy here, not anybody being nervous about Gerrard being criticised.

by **ConnO'var** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:45 am

supersub wrote:my post had nothing to do with the Fiorentina game...so you missed the point there.

I merely indicated that Torres and Gerrard can have poor games too but for some reason certain "fans" will lay the blame for that on the other players or the manager and not on Torres and Gerrard themselves.

I guess I did. But perhaps you missed mine as well.

I merely implied that Rafa can make piss poor decisions but for some reason, certain "fans" will lay the blame for that on the the players or the owners and not on the manager himself.

How can we expect our forwards to thrust forward when they are constantly having to backtrack due to a non-existent supply line from the heart of the midfield?

by **aCe'** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:25 am

oh hellooo....

I think much is being asked of Gerrard this season in the absence of Alonso... sort of like what we had in the last years with Houllier where Gerrard pretty much had to cover more ground to cover/carry some of the players around him... Last season, with Alonso and Masch behind him, he had the freedom to do what he does best where it mattered the most... This season, he quite simply doesnt have that luxury... He hasnt been performing to the ridiculously high standards of last season, but hes still been our most important player bar none.. Without him in the side, i dont think we'd finish higher than sixth.. Without him AND Torres, i think we'd be midtable unless Aquilani proves to be a worldclass signing..

Personally, i think Rafa has got it wrong this season... even before the season started he didnt seem to have a plan put forward for this season... The Alonso thing dragged on for too long, the Aquilani thing (despite me being sure that eventually he'll prove to be an excellent signing) wasnt well considered, and quite simply the fixture list did us many favours leaving us where we are now in the league... For me, Gerrard behind Torres with the likes of Lucas, Aurelio and Mascherano playing in the middle is an absolute waste... Rafa needs to figure it out, and figure out soon... the next few games could very well shape our season...

by **maguskwt** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:07 pm

aCe' wrote:The Alonso thing dragged on for too long, the Aquilani thing (despite me being sure that eventually he'll prove to be an excellent signing) wasnt well considered,

exact reason why we got the deserved transfer fees for Alonso... are you suggesting we bend over backwards for Real?

"the Aquilani thing (despite me being sure that eventually he'll prove to be an excellent signing) wasnt well considered,..."

is that an oxymoron or what?

by **Sir Roger** » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:27 pm

aCe' wrote:oh hellooo....

I think much is being asked of Gerrard this season in the absence of Alonso... sort of like what we had in the last years with Houllier where Gerrard pretty much had to cover more ground to cover/carry some of the players around him... Last season, with Alonso and Masch behind him, he had the freedom to do what he does best where it mattered the most... This season, he quite simply doesnt have that luxury... He hasnt been performing to the ridiculously high standards of last season, but hes still been our most important player bar none.. Without him in the side, i dont think we'd finish higher than sixth.. Without him AND Torres, i think we'd be midtable unless Aquilani proves to be a worldclass signing..

Personally, i think Rafa has got it wrong this season... even before the season started he didnt seem to have a plan put forward for this season... The Alonso thing dragged on for too long, the Aquilani thing (despite me being sure that eventually he'll prove to be an excellent signing) wasnt well considered, and quite simply the fixture list did us many favours leaving us where we are now in the league... For me, Gerrard behind Torres with the likes of Lucas, Aurelio and Mascherano playing in the middle is an absolute waste... Rafa needs to figure it out, and figure out soon... the next few games could very well shape our season...

Why doesnt Rafa just watch videos of games where gerrard has played well, check what positon he played in and what the team was for that match and repeat it?
Simples

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