Liverpool FC Forum

by **parchpea** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:57 pm

Tons of players in an out but bottom line is right now we stilll only have Gerrard and Torres that can turn a game for us and Benitez signed only one of those. Try as he might, and hes shipped several in and out, he just fails to add that bit of flair needed on a consitent basis to give us that extra we need to take us to the top. Maybe hes too tactical and focused on protecting the game to see that side of it, but he does seem to struggle to find that last piece of the puzzle.Its 3 games in, which is nothing, but his comments after Villa indicate that hes feeling the strain even now, and perhaps deep down is a little concerned by the way the pre and early season has panned out.

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:01 pm

parchpea wrote:Tons of players in an out but bottom line is right now we stilll only have Gerrard and Torres that can turn a game for us and Benitez signed only one of those. Try as he might, and hes shipped several in and out, he just fails to add that bit of flair needed on a consitent basis to give us that extra we need to take us to the top. Maybe hes too tactical and focused on protecting the game to see that side of it, but he does seem to struggle to find that last piece of the puzzle.Its 3 games in, which is nothing, but his comments after Villa indicate that hes feeling the strain even now, and perhaps deep down is a little concerned by the way the pre and early season has panned out.

His balance sheet may be good but his stability is suspect
I had this discussion on the way home after the match.
For all the comings and goings we havent got a solid squad to choose from. Especially in the strickers department

by **slickrick** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:49 pm

the fact is rafa spent our budget on a full back that we didn't need, granted johnson is a good player, we didn't need him. we have beem crying out for ssome flyers on the wings and a good creativ midfielder for behind the front man and did we get any? no. rafa has no one to blame only himself. 20 million on a full back instead f spending what we did have on a really good creative player, this team won't win the league

by **Fauxy** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:20 pm

slickrick wrote:the fact is rafa spent our budget on a full back that we didn't need, granted johnson is a good player, we didn't need him. we have beem crying out for ssome flyers on the wings and a good creativ midfielder for behind the front man and did we get any? no. rafa has no one to blame only himself. 20 million on a full back instead f spending what we did have on a really good creative player, this team won't win the league

We did need him, Arbeloa had already said he wanted to leave to go to Spain even before Real Madrid showed interest in him.

by **fivecups** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:11 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
kazza wrote:Lucas - Silly tackle, unfortunate for the og. Was he our worst player? No. Will he get the blame? Yes. Aside from those mistakes highlighted, he didn't really do a lot wrong. He linked up the play quite well and could have been quicker with his distribution but that could have been levelled at the rest of the team also. Prior to his substitution, he was linking the play and getting into the box to try and get on the end of crosses. When substituted at 1-3 down, Gerrard took his place. Gerrard last night, shows why he shouldn't play in central midfield for us. He was back taking the ball from the defence, not where he should be linking play and causing havoc further forward. We were 1-3 down and Gerrard was encamped in the centre circle with the ball ahead of him. Not good.

Other than failing to perform a tenth of the tasks required of a midfielder at this level, he didn't do a lot wrong. That's become the customary analysis of his game. The fact is, more often than not, the midfield is the busiest area of the pitch - that translates into 'most important area of the pitch' and at this level you can't get away with simply 'not doing a lot wrong'. You could get me on that pitch and I could quite successfully fulfil that profile. Don't touch the ball very often and give it five yards when you do.

He was poor, as were the rest of the midfield, I really struggle to find a reasonable argument against that. Kuyt, Benayoun, Masch, Lucas were all ineffectual in an attacking capacity. Stray passing, off-the-ball movement that was often the exact opposite of 'complementary'. Beyanoun inside when he should be showing for it wide to make the option for Insua - result, ball into box, headed away and start again. Kuyt, receiving it simple and playing it straight into the central area that was heavily congested. Masch, shooting from 30, 40 yards to absolutely no effect, and playing balls into feet that were slow, straight and very easy to defend against. Not good enough, not by a long stretch.

This lack of outright ability in the midfield is one reason we didn't see Johnson and Insua offering the option out wide as often as we needed them. If it broke down by virtue of said deficiencies it's a dangerous game as a full back positioning yourself 10 yards ahead of Young and Agbonlahor respectively. They were always mindful of that and you could see that in their play - Johnson found that balance very well and that's why he was our best performer. On a couple of occasions Villa did in fact expose us down the outside only for Johnson to make crucial interceptions. It all stemmed from our dodgy midfield, that's the area that failed to function properly, causing us all sorts of problems in attack and defense.

Good post. Lucas's role is crucial to the success of the team, he's got to play well and be involved in our play for us to control the game.

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:43 am

Emerald Red wrote:Let me just burst this myth for a wee second. Aquilani DID NOT f*cking cost 20 million as the press like to say. It was somewhere in the region of 15 plus extras as Marca reported on before he actually signed. Oh, and didn't Xabi Alonso exit for 30 million? Right, so Rafa spent half the money HE MADE on a player instead of them two fat-headed b@stards actually giving it to him. Most of the money Bentiez has had to spend recently in the past two or three seasons is due to his dealings in the transfere market and money gained in various competitions, so yes, those two c*nts IMO are to blame.

Rafa's three big money signs are as follows:

Masherano: 18 million - instant success
Torres - 18.7 million - instant success
Glen Johnson - 18 million - instant success

Had the man been given at least another 30, then I dare say we'd now have the squad to cope. Season after season we're being drip-fed 20 million pounds or so to spend on either one player or cut down to two or so mediocre squad players. Rafa's first year at having full control of things and he buys a first class right back, and sells Xabi Alonso at 3 times the profit. Had the man had the backing from the very beggining, then there's wouldn't be half the c*nts spitting the dummy now and crying like a baby over how we aren't good enough. End of rant.

Yanks out!

Let me just burst this myth for a wee second. Aquilani DID NOT f*cking cost 20 million as the press like to say. It was somewhere in the region of 15 plus extras as Marca reported on before he actually signed.

But the "extras" could boost the amount towards the eventual 20 as quoted could it not?

Oh, and didn't Xabi Alonso exit for 30 million? Right, so Rafa spent half the money HE MADE on a player instead of them two fat-headed b@stards actually giving it to him.

Yes, but then again, a little man management could so easily have kept Xabi here and therefore our current scapegoat Lucas, wouldnt be slated as much. Also like I mentioned, lets not forget the money spent on contracts. They cost a lot of money, as people pointed out when Ballack signed for Chelsea, or Owen to United. Signing on fees alone all add up.

Most of the money Bentiez has had to spend recently in the past two or three seasons is due to his dealings in the transfere market and money gained in various competitions, so yes, those two c*nts IMO are to blame.

Due to rafas dealings in the transfer market, we have ended up with more deadwood and havent done too well in the competitions have we? So yes, I agree with you there.

Rafa's three big money signs are as follows:

Masherano: 18 million - instant success
Torres - 18.7 million - instant success
Glen Johnson - 18 million - instant success

That would be 1. Torres was signed outright, Mascha was on loan before we took the plunge as we all saw what a class player he is and Johnson, I will reserve my judgement until the season is finished. 3 games cannot justify his price tag.

Yanks out!

I agree totally. Although im trying to point the performance on the pitch away from these two, off the pitch they are just the most embarrassing reps this great club could have. I would like nothing more than these two to be gone and replaced by an honest and respectable board. There's always hope I guess.

by **bigmick** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:51 am

Emerald does have an amusing way of looking at things. Aquilani only cost 15 million because you don't count the "extra's" (and of course you can't believe the press), whereas Alonso brings in 30 as all "extra's" are counted up front, and we do believe the press which suits us. The Robbie Keane fiasco is conveniently forgotten, and even when it's remembered we sign him for 20 and sell him for 12 but it only cost us a million quid :laugh:

. Failing that, Rafa didn't sign him int he first place, it was "fecking Parry :angry:

". Then we'd get the same back for Ryan Babel as we paid for him

It certainly is an intersting take on events, you've got to give the fella that.

by **REDTILLDEAD** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:55 am

fivecups wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
kazza wrote:Lucas - Silly tackle, unfortunate for the og. Was he our worst player? No. Will he get the blame? Yes. Aside from those mistakes highlighted, he didn't really do a lot wrong. He linked up the play quite well and could have been quicker with his distribution but that could have been levelled at the rest of the team also. Prior to his substitution, he was linking the play and getting into the box to try and get on the end of crosses. When substituted at 1-3 down, Gerrard took his place. Gerrard last night, shows why he shouldn't play in central midfield for us. He was back taking the ball from the defence, not where he should be linking play and causing havoc further forward. We were 1-3 down and Gerrard was encamped in the centre circle with the ball ahead of him. Not good.

Other than failing to perform a tenth of the tasks required of a midfielder at this level, he didn't do a lot wrong. That's become the customary analysis of his game. The fact is, more often than not, the midfield is the busiest area of the pitch - that translates into 'most important area of the pitch' and at this level you can't get away with simply 'not doing a lot wrong'. You could get me on that pitch and I could quite successfully fulfil that profile. Don't touch the ball very often and give it five yards when you do.

He was poor, as were the rest of the midfield, I really struggle to find a reasonable argument against that. Kuyt, Benayoun, Masch, Lucas were all ineffectual in an attacking capacity. Stray passing, off-the-ball movement that was often the exact opposite of 'complementary'. Beyanoun inside when he should be showing for it wide to make the option for Insua - result, ball into box, headed away and start again. Kuyt, receiving it simple and playing it straight into the central area that was heavily congested. Masch, shooting from 30, 40 yards to absolutely no effect, and playing balls into feet that were slow, straight and very easy to defend against. Not good enough, not by a long stretch.

This lack of outright ability in the midfield is one reason we didn't see Johnson and Insua offering the option out wide as often as we needed them. If it broke down by virtue of said deficiencies it's a dangerous game as a full back positioning yourself 10 yards ahead of Young and Agbonlahor respectively. They were always mindful of that and you could see that in their play - Johnson found that balance very well and that's why he was our best performer. On a couple of occasions Villa did in fact expose us down the outside only for Johnson to make crucial interceptions. It all stemmed from our dodgy midfield, that's the area that failed to function properly, causing us all sorts of problems in attack and defense.

Good post. Lucas's role is crucial to the success of the team, he's got to play well and be involved in our play for us to control the game.

Lucas's role crucial?......if he keeps playing him then you can kiss goodbye to the very slim chance we might have of winning the title. he should be sold asap....the trouble is no one else would take him, i dont see any other prem clubs linning up a swoop for him...crucial you say?? :laugh:

by **aCe'** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:23 am

Okay the overreaction might have went a little overboard... ill give you that much....
Our squad isnt as bad as some make it out to be... We still have most of the players we did last season, and it remains to be seen whether Aquilani could add to the team more than Xabi did.... Johnson for Arbeloa is a no contest for me... Solid as the little Spaniard was, he was never going to make the impact Johnson did in the attacking end...

For now, what we need to do is manage what we have a little better... Blame the owners all you want, blame Lucas all you want, but its quite obvious -at least to me- that Benitez shoulders most of the blame for our bumpy start... We knew that by selling Alonso we'd be one quality midfielder short... we knew that by signing an injured Aquilani we'd stay one quality midfielder short for a few months... we did absolutely nothing to address that... We didnt have a plan, and now three games in, we seem to be trying to come up with one...

People dismissed any importance of preseason when it was obvious to many that there were issues that needed addressing then.. Rafa certainly did... We needed to improve, to have a plan B, but we didnt, and it might very well cost us...

3 games isnt that big an issue... 6 points lost arent going to lose us the title, our current setup though, given the players we have, most certainly will.. Its a big test for Benitez now, whether he can change things around and come up with a winning formula that will keep us in any title race for the next couple of months until we have all our players fit and ready... for the clubs sake (not Rafa's, not the owners') i hope he gets it right...

by **Effes** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:24 am

It's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned - Gerrard to partner Masch; go 4-4-2 with Kuyt upfront with Torres.

Torres has been getting too isolated, and 4-4-2 gives us some width.

Oh, and put the big Greek groc at the near post at corners/free kicks :;):

by **Dazzer** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:56 am

Effes wrote:It's a no brainer as far as I'm concerned - Gerrard to partner Masch; go 4-4-2 with Kuyt upfront with Torres.

Torres has been getting too isolated, and 4-4-2 gives us some width.

Oh, and put the big Greek groc at the near post at corners/free kicks

Who on right and who on left that is the million pound question !!!!

I say play benny on left and babel on the right.

I like that idea on formation with Gerrard next to Masch and giving Kuyt chance up top.

by **Owzat** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:27 am

bigmick wrote:Emerald does have an amusing way of looking at things. Aquilani only cost 15 million because you don't count the "extra's" (and of course you can't believe the press), whereas Alonso brings in 30 as all "extra's" are counted up front, and we do believe the press which suits us. The Robbie Keane fiasco is conveniently forgotten, and even when it's remembered we sign him for 20 and sell him for 12 but it only cost us a million quid . Failing that, Rafa didn't sign him int he first place, it was "fecking Parry ". Then we'd get the same back for Ryan Babel as we paid for him It certainly is an intersting take on events, you've got to give the fella that.

No more amusing than Johnson only costing £10.5m because the other £7m was a debt to us written off, still means we are £7m out of pocket as debts are generally where money will be given eventually and that's £7m we won't see again - also people haven't adjusted the fool's equation by saying we sold Crouch for £4m, I bet they still say it is £11m.

Add-ons are a tricky one, I lean towards the final price as that is what you would pay if the player proved successful. As for the success of the big money signings, fair enough Torres was a hit, Mascherano is acknowledged as one and Johnson is a laughable call as a hit since he's played a whopping three games. Since Aquilani played none of those three games does that make him a failure? Or perhaps we should see how much he plays this season and how well before judging - same as we should with Johnson. And for the "instant success" of three players, we've managed one win in three so what's the point deeming players an "instant success" or flop if the TEAM is not winning?

But mick, everyone on these boards will adjust "the truth" to suit their point, I try to be as objective as possible but can anyone be? With Johnson I am critical not of the player, but of the amount we spent on a RB when the funds could have been spent elsewhere. I like Johnson as a RB, felt neither way towards Arbeloa but still recognised that he can't have been that bad in a side that only lost two games all season. I do wonder if "instant success" or the regarding of some players as superb signings clouds judgement when it comes to criticism. We play badly it is Lucas, Kuyt, Babel and one or two others that get criticised, what about the likes of Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres? Some criticise them, but the ones instantly turned on are the players the same names have been campaigning to get out for months or since day one. I guess Dossena must be lucky he's not in the side so it's hard for him to get it too, but I bet had he been at LB that he'd be in there with Lucas, Babel etc. After Yossi's run in last season is he now exempt from blame?

They say "form is temporary, class is permanent" - do we apply that to our current situation to say our class will show through, or was last season "form" rather than "class" ie a one-off?

By the way, here's some comparisons for everyone to gauge our start to 09/10

After three games 09/10 : P3 W1 D0 L2 F6 A5 PTS 3
After three games 08/09 : P3 W2 D1 L0 F3 A1 PTS 7
Corresponding games 08/09 : P3 W1 D1 L1 F6 A2 PTS 4

LIVERPOOL'S WORST PREMIERSHIP STARTS (FOUR GAMES)

92/93 P4 W1 D1 L2 F4 A6 PTS 4 (finished 6th)
06/07 P4 W1 D1 L2 F4 A3 PTS 4 (finished 3rd on GD above Arsenal)
03/04 P4 W1 D2 L1 F4 A2 PTS 5 (finished 4th)
97/98 P4 W1 D2 L1 F5 A4 PTS 5 (finished 3rd)

So we could set our worst start to the Premiership if we lose. Interestingly enough, if we win at Bolton then we'd be on six points which is the same total we were on in 01/02 and 05/06 and we finished on 80 and 82 points respectively - last season we were on 10 points after four games. No matter how you look at our start, we have our work cut out to stay in the title race let alone win it. Only one of those four worst starts was under Rafa and we managed just 68 points that season. Oddly enough that was one bad start per manager - Souness, Evans, Houllier and Rafa, with Rafa looking to avoid twice starting a season with less than six points from four games.

by **Number 9** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:59 am

bigmick wrote:Emerald does have an amusing way of looking at things. Aquilani only cost 15 million because you don't count the "extra's" (and of course you can't believe the press), whereas Alonso brings in 30 as all "extra's" are counted up front, and we do believe the press which suits us. The Robbie Keane fiasco is conveniently forgotten, and even when it's remembered we sign him for 20 and sell him for 12 but it only cost us a million quid . Failing that, Rafa didn't sign him int he first place, it was "fecking Parry ". Then we'd get the same back for Ryan Babel as we paid for him It certainly is an intersting take on events, you've got to give the fella that.

Emy has the best rose tinted glasses in the world...always positive!!

by **Ciggy** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:14 am

I think people are missing the point we only had to pay 5 million upfront for Aqualini, we have to pay Roma in installments so there goes the myth that we have paid a whoppping 20 million upfront for Alberto.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:24 am

Number 9 wrote:
bigmick wrote:Emerald does have an amusing way of looking at things. Aquilani only cost 15 million because you don't count the "extra's" (and of course you can't believe the press), whereas Alonso brings in 30 as all "extra's" are counted up front, and we do believe the press which suits us. The Robbie Keane fiasco is conveniently forgotten, and even when it's remembered we sign him for 20 and sell him for 12 but it only cost us a million quid . Failing that, Rafa didn't sign him int he first place, it was "fecking Parry ". Then we'd get the same back for Ryan Babel as we paid for him It certainly is an intersting take on events, you've got to give the fella that.

Emy has the best rose tinted glasses in the world...always positive!!

And Mick always believes he is the voice of sanity and unbiased reason, when in reality he invents more far-fetched tales than the writers of The X-Files.

Aquilani - £5m up front.

Keane - signed for c.£21m (of which we paid £12m), then sold him back for £11m (even the worst mathematician in the World can see that means we lost £1m on the deal, not £8m).

Alonso's deal will eventually give us £30m.

But why let the facts spoil a good story?

Particularly one which gives BM the chance for a little light Rafa-Bashing...

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