Liverpool FC Forum

by **Effes** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:41 pm

Ive just got a few points:

- Surely after every poor performance we can't bring up the issue of the owners.
If that is going to happen all season Im gonna get very bored with things on here.

- Our play was very erratic last night, I thought Gerrard was running round like a kid
with too much energy. For someone his age, he should be using his head more.

- Lucas just hasn't "got it" has he? I think we all know that. We'll have to stick Gerrard
back in the middle for Bolton away.
I wont be happy if Lucas starts on Saturday.

- Zonal marking. Im not going to go overboard and say scrap the whole idea.
BUT, we get found out when Curtis did what he did last night.
All you have to do is for someone decent in the air to wait at the far end of the goal
and just before the corner/free kick is taken, sneak in to the near post before anyone can
pick you up. Bang, goal.
Curtis did it last night and Cahill did it to great effect at home to Everton.
We need to sort that out, it's getting glaryingly obvious we haven't sussed that out.

by **FuzzyBear** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:43 pm

bavlondon wrote:Oh please...before the start of the season all you could hear from Arsenal fans was doom gloom and despair. It was only after that 6-1 result at Everton people thought ok we will look stupid if we keep moaning now so lets just change our tune being one of the most bi polar set of fans since Chelsea.

I am not doubting Wengers capabilities as a manager either. He is world class no doubt about what it comes down to man for man they have a more talanted set of players at their disposal. Whether that is down to bad scouting on our part or bad nurturing of talent...well that is for another thread.

But just remember where we were when Rafa arrived compared to what we might have done last season had it not been for a few points lost on home draws.

I'm not talking about Arsenal fans. I'm talking about how Arsene Wenger's uncanny ability to construct coherent teams who play fantastic football and get results. Yes, Arsenal for the last four or five years have been very quiet in terms of success, but I am certain that Arsenal will be back within the thick of it, if not this season, next season.

They have that look about them, their depth is improving and their youngsters are coming into their own. Aaron Ramsey and Jack Wilshere look the business.

Arsene has managed to construct a team here with balance and cohesion, that's not too say they will win anything this season, but they are in better shape to challenge on all fronts than Liverpool. Guess what? Benitez has vastly outspent Wenger in Wenger's 13 years at Arsenal.

Rafa has taken us far, but it is not far enough - it is time for a change.

by **Effes** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:44 pm

stmichael wrote:
mistyred wrote:I think 4-4-2 and every bloody player in their natural position
would go a long way to sorting out teams like Villa.

Who would you play on the right in a 4-4-2 then? We don't have a natural wide right player.

I'd play Benayoun right, Riera left.

I dont know how anyone can say Benayoun cant play right midfield. He has the trickery to play wide and can go inside and out.

by **sgs** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:44 pm

Oliver Kay makes my point eloquently. The matyrdom of Alonso on here is unbelievable to the point where he is suddenly being ascribed with everything wonderful we did last season. I could'nt disagree more and on the Spurs game thread from last season, I had pointed to numerous flaws in his game that led to Pavluchenko's goal..

Alonso took 4yrs to get to the season he had last year. Lucas is now expected to reach that level in 3 weeks, even when the role description is not exactly the same.

For whatever reason, the team has not looked fresh. But the biggest failures so far, I maintain, have come from Gerrard; not everybody's favorite dump bag, Lucas!

We are willfully destroying a young talent. That is not the Liverpool way....

by **FuzzyBear** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:45 pm

bavlondon wrote:
FuzzyBear wrote:
Bammo wrote:For those of you calling for Rafa's head, what would be your plan for success?

The reason I ask is we have no money for a new manager to spend so he would be working with the squad we have at present. Who do you think would come here and improve performances and results with the same squad?

If every Liverpool fan boycotted attending games, watching matches and purchasing merchandise, the Americans will have no choice, but to sell.

Standing on seats, telling the Americans to "go home" after spending several hundred pounds on a season ticket, forty pounds on a replica shirt and a few pounds on a hot dog isn't an effective way of forcing them to sell.

In this day and age when so much revenue comes from overseas, a boycott is near impossible.

Local fans and those who attend games have the power not to turn up to Anfield or get on coaches to travel across country and across Europe.

If Liverpool fans are willing to do nothing to drive out the Americans, they should put up and shut up.

by **heimdall** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:45 pm

Bammo wrote:For those of you calling for Rafa's head, what would be your plan for success?

The reason I ask is we have no money for a new manager to spend so he would be working with the squad we have at present. Who do you think would come here and improve performances and results with the same squad?

It's a fair point, we might as well give Rafa out this season now, not that I'm necessarily blaming him or wanting him out but replacing him now would be silly. having said that I do not understand why he doesn't play Riera and I don't understand why he does play Lucas. Rafa's problem, as it always has been, is that he is to rigid, he doesn't seem able to adapt once a match has started, if plan A goes wrong then there is seldom a plan B.

by **Bammo** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:46 pm

Effes wrote:- Zonal marking.

There was a football "expert" on 5live a few weeks ago that explained zonal marking brilliantly so I'll try and summarise it here:

75% of goals from set-pieces into the box (corners, free kicks etc) actually come from the 2nd ball.

Zonal marking is designed to combat this rather than the 1st ball in. Basically, if the ball drops each man has his zone in which he can clear it. Each zone is covered and in theory the ball is cleared.

Under man-to-man marking defenders follow players. When the ball drops there are zones with no defenders and others with a crowd of players. This means the ball isn't cleared and there's more chance of a goal.

We conceded last night and against Spurs because of a perfect 1st ball. The only way to combat that using zonal marking is to ensure defenders are aggressive within their zone. We seem to switch off at times and are flat footed, which is why they get beaten to the ball.

by **tubby** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:48 pm

FuzzyBear wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Oh please...before the start of the season all you could hear from Arsenal fans was doom gloom and despair. It was only after that 6-1 result at Everton people thought ok we will look stupid if we keep moaning now so lets just change our tune being one of the most bi polar set of fans since Chelsea.

I am not doubting Wengers capabilities as a manager either. He is world class no doubt about what it comes down to man for man they have a more talanted set of players at their disposal. Whether that is down to bad scouting on our part or bad nurturing of talent...well that is for another thread.

But just remember where we were when Rafa arrived compared to what we might have done last season had it not been for a few points lost on home draws.

I'm not talking about Arsenal fans. I'm talking about how Arsene Wenger's uncanny ability to construct coherent teams who play fantastic football and get results. Yes, Arsenal for the last four or five years have been very quiet in terms of success, but I am certain that Arsenal will be back within the thick of it, if not this season, next season.

They have that look about them, their depth is improving and their youngsters are coming into their own. Aaron Ramsey and Jack Wilshere look the business.

Arsene has managed to construct a team here with balance and cohesion, that's not too say they will win anything this season, but they are in better shape to challenge on all fronts than Liverpool. Guess what? Benitez has vastly outspent Wenger in Wenger's 13 years at Arsenal.

Rafa has taken us far, but it is not far enough - it is time for a change.

The thing is once he was able to get his team playing such attractive football it is easy to attract players to your club.

by **Effes** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:50 pm

Bammo wrote:
Effes wrote:- Zonal marking.

There was a football "expert" on 5live a few weeks ago that explained zonal marking brilliantly so I'll try and summarise it here:

75% of goals from set-pieces into the box (corners, free kicks etc) actually come from the 2nd ball.

Zonal marking is designed to combat this rather than the 1st ball in. Basically, if the ball drops each man has his zone in which he can clear it. Each zone is covered and in theory the ball is cleared.

Under man-to-man marking defenders follow players. When the ball drops there are zones with no defenders and others with a crowd of players. This means the ball isn't cleared and there's more chance of a goal.

We conceded last night and against Spurs because of a perfect 1st ball. The only way to combat that using zonal marking is to ensure defenders are aggressive within their zone. We seem to switch off at times and are flat footed, which is why they get beaten to the ball.

Good post mate - but surely you agree that we get caught by that man running into the near post as the ball is kicked?

by **FuzzyBear** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:51 pm

bavlondon wrote:
FuzzyBear wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Oh please...before the start of the season all you could hear from Arsenal fans was doom gloom and despair. It was only after that 6-1 result at Everton people thought ok we will look stupid if we keep moaning now so lets just change our tune being one of the most bi polar set of fans since Chelsea.

I am not doubting Wengers capabilities as a manager either. He is world class no doubt about what it comes down to man for man they have a more talanted set of players at their disposal. Whether that is down to bad scouting on our part or bad nurturing of talent...well that is for another thread.

But just remember where we were when Rafa arrived compared to what we might have done last season had it not been for a few points lost on home draws.

I'm not talking about Arsenal fans. I'm talking about how Arsene Wenger's uncanny ability to construct coherent teams who play fantastic football and get results. Yes, Arsenal for the last four or five years have been very quiet in terms of success, but I am certain that Arsenal will be back within the thick of it, if not this season, next season.

They have that look about them, their depth is improving and their youngsters are coming into their own. Aaron Ramsey and Jack Wilshere look the business.

Arsene has managed to construct a team here with balance and cohesion, that's not too say they will win anything this season, but they are in better shape to challenge on all fronts than Liverpool. Guess what? Benitez has vastly outspent Wenger in Wenger's 13 years at Arsenal.

Rafa has taken us far, but it is not far enough - it is time for a change.

The thing is once he was able to get his team playing such attractive football it is easy to attract players to your club.

And how do Liverpool attract players? By using our history and traditions.

by **Bammo** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:55 pm

Effes wrote:Good post mate - but surely you agree that we get caught by that man running into the near post as the ball is kicked?

Yeah, totally

If I was setting up the team I'd use man-to-man but after learning the stats etc zonal has great benefits. We're beaten by players making good runs because of individuals rather than the system.

Each defender must be ready for the ball in and say to themselves they'll get it as soon as it enters their zone. What happens, though, is the ball came in and we're waiting for it rather than attacking it. Whether using man-to-man or zonal, the defender should never let the attacker get in front of him.

I'm 5'6 but I win an amazing amount of headers (not that they go anywhere useful

) by just getting in front of the defender.

by **Owzat** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 1:56 pm

Effes wrote:Ive just got a few points:

- Surely after every poor performance we can't bring up the issue of the owners.
If that is going to happen all season Im gonna get very bored with things on here.

- Our play was very erratic last night, I thought Gerrard was running round like a kid
with too much energy. For someone his age, he should be using his head more.

- Lucas just hasn't "got it" has he? I think we all know that. We'll have to stick Gerrard
back in the middle for Bolton away.
I wont be happy if Lucas starts on Saturday.

- Zonal marking. Im not going to go overboard and say scrap the whole idea.
BUT, we get found out when Curtis did what he did last night.
All you have to do is for someone decent in the air to wait at the far end of the goal
and just before the corner/free kick is taken, sneak in to the near post before anyone can
pick you up. Bang, goal.
Curtis did it last night and Cahill did it to great effect at home to Everton.
We need to sort that out, it's getting glaryingly obvious we haven't sussed that out.

re owners, fully agree. Rafa doesn't spend like he's got no money and we should have won it last season with the said same owners.

re zonal marking, it can be exploited since the theory is naff to say the least. To effectively challenge a player you need to be next to them, not in the vicinity. If you mark up you all know who is marking who, not hope someone picks up the attacking player. I won't blame it for us losing, but we need defensive solidity not a decent defensive record overall. One goal can cost us three points, we need to minimise goals conceded and I seriously hate ZM.

re Lucas, he is the easy scapegoat as the weakest player in the side. The fact that therefore expectation should be less and some of the hatred aimed at the person who signed him and plays him, who didn't replace Alonso with a fit player and is generally responsible and therefore culpable for team affairs/woes, should be aimed at RB.

You missed Rafa Benitez and his preset substitutions routine. 2-0 down at half-time, no substitution until 2/3 of the game had gone. Even against Stoke or Burnley I'd expect the subs to be on a lot sooner, you need more than 25+ mins to change a game that much. I doubt his ability to influence or change games, we have come back before but how often is it an inspired substitution? Didn't we come back at Pompey because he brought on Torres and Alonso which are pretty obvious picks bearing in mind they'd start if fit.

We are in deep trouble, already behind more points than we'd want to be at any stage of the season and playing poorly against sides that finished 6th and 8th last season. BUT we do have time to come back, the only issue with that optimism is that we've played poorly enough to lose twice so is there much prospect of gaining ground or is it more likely we'll lose more?

by **mistyred** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:01 pm

If i was Rafa which i'm obviously not, i would trawl the reserves their must be a players who
he can swap with Voronin and Babel

by **tubby** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:03 pm

FuzzyBear wrote:
bavlondon wrote:
FuzzyBear wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Oh please...before the start of the season all you could hear from Arsenal fans was doom gloom and despair. It was only after that 6-1 result at Everton people thought ok we will look stupid if we keep moaning now so lets just change our tune being one of the most bi polar set of fans since Chelsea.

I am not doubting Wengers capabilities as a manager either. He is world class no doubt about what it comes down to man for man they have a more talanted set of players at their disposal. Whether that is down to bad scouting on our part or bad nurturing of talent...well that is for another thread.

But just remember where we were when Rafa arrived compared to what we might have done last season had it not been for a few points lost on home draws.

I'm not talking about Arsenal fans. I'm talking about how Arsene Wenger's uncanny ability to construct coherent teams who play fantastic football and get results. Yes, Arsenal for the last four or five years have been very quiet in terms of success, but I am certain that Arsenal will be back within the thick of it, if not this season, next season.

They have that look about them, their depth is improving and their youngsters are coming into their own. Aaron Ramsey and Jack Wilshere look the business.

Arsene has managed to construct a team here with balance and cohesion, that's not too say they will win anything this season, but they are in better shape to challenge on all fronts than Liverpool. Guess what? Benitez has vastly outspent Wenger in Wenger's 13 years at Arsenal.

Rafa has taken us far, but it is not far enough - it is time for a change.

The thing is once he was able to get his team playing such attractive football it is easy to attract players to your club.

And how do Liverpool attract players? By using our history and traditions.

To an extent yes but there is only so much we can do with limitd funds. If Rafa was allowed to go for his first choice players we wouldn't be in this situation. Anyway this seems to be going of topic so I will leave it there.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:23 pm

Bammo wrote:Each defender must be ready for the ball in and say to themselves they'll get it as soon as it enters their zone. What happens, though, is the ball came in and we're waiting for it rather than attacking it. Whether using man-to-man or zonal, the defender should never let the attacker get in front of him.

Agreed.

The system, as has been proven down the years, is itself a very sensible one to use, but as with any system - the individuals have to make it work. We needed to be on our toes and aware of those about to attack the ball yesterday, because Davies wondered in far too easily. You don't necessarily have to get your head on it, but you should do enough to challenge your opponent and put him off. It's a problem that will need to be resolved on the training ground because it's happened a couple of times this season; yesterday and against Spurs (Defoe header, movement to front post). It's mainly a tuning issue, though we could obviously do with someone especially good in the air to help out. We used to have Sami in there, Crouch and Alonso too who were three our stronger headers of the ball. It's also another reason to bring Riera back in funnily enough.

Liverpool FC Forum

Three games in...... - A snapshot so far.

Who is online