Liverpool FC Forum

by **heimdall** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:58 am

bigmick wrote:
kazza wrote:So what are you saying

My point (not very well made granted) was that perhaps it was all in my imagination that Rafa is slightly softening his relationships with the players, or if he is it's by the tiniest of degrees.

It's somethign which all managers are increasingly having to get used to though. Rightly or wrongly the players hold the balance of power, and be it an "arm around the shoulder" or a bit of ego boosting now and then, all the most successful managers have to do it in this day and age, even Rafa.

BM The best managers in the world are able to communicate what they want in a clear and direct manner and are capable of being friendly and approachable but also strict and tough.
Man-management is Rafa's major failing as a manager,plus the bizarre belief that players like Lucas, Dossena, Babel and N'Gog are anywhere near good enough for Liverpool. :no

by **The_Rock** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:10 pm

More "awesome" examples of man-mangement... This time publicly issuing torres a "wake-up" call. Gosh....Benitez blames everyone except himself.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/footbal....-torres

Rather than giving Fernando Torres a wake-up call, it's Liverpool's manager who may need a sharp dose of reality

There is an old, old story, possibly apocryphal, of the day Alan Ball made his debut as a co-commentator and the television station received a record number of complaints from viewers about a high-pitched squeaking noise coming out of their sets.

Steve Claridge on the radio strikes many in the same way. He is not blessed with the most mellifluous of speaking voices and frequently strikes off at bizarre tangents, though for a pundit he does have the handy knack of seeing the important things that go on in a game and accurately predicting what is likely to happen next. Sunday's game at White Hart Lane contained a good example. It was the main commentator who informed the audience that Fernando Torres was hardly in the game, Claridge who explained that the striker had been kicked in the opening minutes and had been quiet ever since.

While Claridge did not labour the point or accuse Spurs of deliberate intimidation, the nation's suspicions were confirmed a couple of days later when Rafa Benítez clumsily alerted the world to the fact that Torres can be knocked out of his stride. "I have told him he has to stop this," the Liverpool manager said. "The way to respond to any intimidation is by scoring. He is a star and defenders are really worried about him but that [intimidation] is part of the game now."

Goodness knows what Benítez meant by that last "now", as if intimidation of skilful players has not been part of the game for over a century. Even schoolboy players who are not that skilful can relate to being intimidated, or shall we just say kicked, by burly defenders. And goodness knows why Benítez chose to go public with his fears for his star player. Surely a quiet word in private is the way to encourage Torres to overcome his tormentors? Telling the world he needs to show a bit more steel not only suggests a friction between player and manager, it practically advertises the fact that Torres can be rumbled by a few reducers. Like the batsman who flinches under fast bowling and encourages the bowler to send down more bouncers, Torres will now have more to cope with from opponents than if he (or his manager) had shown no reaction.

Benítez telling anyone to put up and shut up is in any case a bit rich. He did not cut a particularly distinguished figure after the Spurs defeat, whingeing about a penalty that wasn't given when Liverpool had already needed one to get back into the game, questioning the fourth official's experience and mocking the referee's eyesight. Even Alan Hansen, who knows how Liverpool used to do things, accepted the visitors were so poor in the first half they did not deserve anything from the game and the result was essentially a fair one.

Comments made in the heat of battle and the immediate disappointment of defeat are one thing, yet Benítez was still moaning days afterwards, this time about Jamie Redknapp's allegedly negative comments on Sky TV. Redknapp had made reference to the absence of Xabi Alonso in the midfield, a bit of a sore point for Benítez, as everyone knows the manager tried to sell him last summer, unsuccessfully tried to keep him this year, and has replaced him with an Italian midfielder, Alberto Aquilani, who is still some weeks off match fitness. The time to make a fair judgment, Benítez reasoned, is when Aquilani is fully fit in the autumn. By then, however, if Liverpool continue the season in the way they started out at Spurs, people will not be making judgments on Aquilani's ability but on Benítez's management and his team's ability or otherwise to stay in the title race. For a team already over-reliant on their two star performers, the season has not got off to an auspicious start. Steven Gerrard was unusually quiet on the first day, forced deep as many had predicted in search of the ball in Alonso's absence, while Torres was so ineffective he got a wake-up call from a manager who may himself be in need of a sharp dose of reality.

"It is easy for people to criticise on television," Benítez said apropos Redknapp, going on to make an observation that even Claridge might find worryingly bizarre and off-beam. "It is easy for these so-called experts to talk about the game when they don't see the training."

The thing is, Rafa, all those people in the stands and on the terraces, they don't see the training either. Nor do all the millions of TV viewers around the world. All those Liverpool supporters who made the long journey to London on a Sunday came to see the match, not the training. They could have stayed on Merseyside to watch the training, assuming Liverpool would have allowed it. More pertinently still, league points and ultimately league titles are handed out on the basis of match results, not training. While it is much too early in the season to install anyone as title favourites or write off anyone's chances (though between you and me I don't think Portsmouth will be in the mix) it is not too early to suggest that Benítez needs to up his game somewhat if he is to avoid being portrayed as a sore loser. Should Liverpool lose out in the league, that is. If they win the league Benítez can be as grouchy and peculiar as he wishes, though if they miss out again and make it a 20-year gap their manager would be well-advised to steer clear of mentioning how good they looked in training.

by **KOPMATT** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:22 pm

I can see where alot of these comments are coming from and I think it's a sad state of affairs that most players feel they should be wrapped in cotton wool when things are going their way. Yes I agree Rafa may seem to many as cold but he's in a job to try his best to get the job done not molly coddle players to up their game surely. Kin ell if I was underperforming when playing as I'm sure most others on here we didn't get an arm around the shoulder we got a bloody bollocking from the coach, thats what helped us to pick our game up(most of the time).
One of the best quotes I heard as I'm sure we all have over the years was from Tommy Smith, when he told Shanks, I don't think I'm up for it today my legs are not up to it, Shanks as we well know told him those legs belong to LFC now get out there and do your job. I'm sorry but I think a bit more of that would be much better for the state of football today, they get paid massive amounts of money and the agents are able to get them a move if alls not loving in the house. Nice one Rafa!

by **RedBlood** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:28 pm

bigmick wrote:This is not a Rafa bashing topic starter. Just to reiterate, this is not a topic where the intention is to bash Rafa in any way.

The point is this. It appears from admittedly hearsay but plenty of it, that sometime around the time Xabi Alonso wanted to miss a European match to be at the birth of his son, his relationship with Rafa began to deteriorate. I actually agree with Rafa on this one to be honest. This modern trend to down tools in the middle of whatever you're doing so you can be there at the birth is all very well, but surely there has to be some responsibility to the club and the fans when you are earning 3 or 4 million quid a year? Anyway rafa didn't like it, and from then on you kind of got the feeling that the writing was on the wall as far as Xabi was concerned.

There have been other managers who have had the "my way or the highway" approach, and to my mind there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. There is only one manager, and what he says goes.

All that said, there has to IMHO be a relationship between a manager and a player which goes beyond the "I'm the manager, you're the player". At least there does in modern football if you are trying to keep hold of absolutely top class players and you are unable to pay absolutely top class wages, which it appears that we aren't. Reading from the comments from the manager, we came perilously close to losing BOTH of our first choice central midfielders this Summer, and it remains to be seen whther Masherano will be able to overcome his disappointment (WTF ) at "having" to stay at Liverpool and missing out on his move to a "Massive club".

So anyway I've heard the way Rafa is talking up Masherano as of now, he's given Torres the new deal and generally he's been more gushing IMHO than previously about certain members of the squad. I think we are gradually seeing an acceptance by the manager that perhaps he has to work harder at his relationships with the players given these turbulent financial times at the club. It doesn't necessarily mean he was wrong before, but perhaps there is some evolution going on in terms of attitude, and like Ferguson apparently not throwing cups of tea anymore, it's probably a change which has been forced upon him by circumstance to some extent.

when you try to convince people that its not a rafa bashing thread before you even started then id say odds are it is

by **stmichael** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:30 pm

Rafa's approach works really well for those players who are confident in their ability, Carra, Torres, Mascherano, Gerrard (although it was touch and go their for a while with him) but for those who need a little more subtlety and pampering he seems to not have the nous to approach differently. It's a "we're all professionals, so act like it" type thing.

Mind you I seem to remember a time a couple of years ago we were playing away in the Nou Camp to the Champions League holders in a week where one of our players twatted another with a golf club. We completely outplayed them and both players involved in the incident scored.

Personally, I don't get this whole thing of an arm around someone. Maybe I'm just able to motivate myself in work, and I am confident in my own ability that I don't need my manager to put their arm around and check I'm alright and need to be told everyday that I'm doing great and I'm an asset, because my monthly results show this. I know from my own performance that whether I'm doing my job or not.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:09 pm

The_Rock wrote:Like the batsman who flinches under fast bowling and encourages the bowler to send down more bouncers, Torres will now have more to cope with from opponents than if he (or his manager) had shown no reaction.

This is going to a be a real problem :kungfu:

by **Nando26** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:21 pm

REDTILLDEAD wrote:Well he didn't have a clue today?....how can he start with babel and leave yossi on the bench?...and how anyone can spend £20 mill on a 'crock' and not replace alonso is beyound me?...by the time this aqualina is fit the title will be out of sight!.

Thats the spirit

by **kazza** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:34 pm

Nando26 wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:Well he didn't have a clue today?....how can he start with babel and leave yossi on the bench?...and how anyone can spend £20 mill on a 'crock' and not replace alonso is beyound me?...by the time this aqualina is fit the title will be out of sight!.

Thats the spirit

by **Effes** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:35 pm

I think Rafa did right to tell Torres to get on with it, not sure he had to relay that to the media though.

by **GYBS** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:02 pm

heimdall wrote:
bigmick wrote:
kazza wrote:So what are you saying

My point (not very well made granted) was that perhaps it was all in my imagination that Rafa is slightly softening his relationships with the players, or if he is it's by the tiniest of degrees.

It's somethign which all managers are increasingly having to get used to though. Rightly or wrongly the players hold the balance of power, and be it an "arm around the shoulder" or a bit of ego boosting now and then, all the most successful managers have to do it in this day and age, even Rafa.

BM The best managers in the world are able to communicate what they want in a clear and direct manner and are capable of being friendly and approachable but also strict and tough.
Man-management is Rafa's major failing as a manager,plus the bizarre belief that players like Lucas, Dossena, Babel and N'Gog are anywhere near good enough for Liverpool.

Both Ferguson and Clough are neither friendly nor approachable

by **LFC2007** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:22 pm

Honestly, I think it matters not a jot whether Rafa publically refers to his players by their first names, second names, nicknames, or indeed their pen names. What really matters is how he manages his relationship with them when it counts; during training and teambuilding, and in the dressing room before, during and after the game - whenever they're together in a professional capacity essentially. That's when he can whisper words of encouragement, usher in calm or deliver a stinging rebuke; whatever he feels is necessary under the circumstances. While PR may have some bearing on this relationship, it's not often easy to deduce much of any significance without taking a leap, and the choices of name Rafa uses to address his players falls into that category. That he calls Gerrard 'Stevie' more often than he calls Dossena 'Andrea' really isn't enough to substantiate the claim that he's decided to take a more 'arm round the should approach' with certain players over others, far from it. In fact, he refers to lots of different players in different ways at different times, so to my mind there's no real pattern of any significance anyway. I'm quite certain too, that Ferguson uses 'Rooney' and 'Berbatov' on occasions, that Mourinho used to use 'Terry' and 'Lampard' on occasions. By itself, it's a very, very limited measure of a manager's relationship with his players, IMO.

What's more reliable as a gauge of this relationship are the accounts of the players themselves - as in Carra's autobio - as they offer player-perspective, which provides actual insight rather than any of this naming nonsense (and it is

). So we know for example that Carra and Gerrard see him as being quite a clinical character at times; absolute professionalism being the default position of his man-management style, just as it ought to be in my opinion. How he maintains these professional boundaries, while offering - when necessary - the approachable 'arm round the shoulder' tact is a balance most managers have to face. It's patently obvious, I know, but different characters require different approaches - dispositions are diverse. How are we too assess with any real sense of justification whether he did enough to comfort one player, or to praise or criticise another? It's an inherently personal aspect of management; players themselves will have different perspectives on this for start, so for us as outsiders to glean enough to be able to criticise strongly is a big stretch. At best as outsiders, I think it's sensible to offer broad observations on the attitudes of certain players on the pitch, and of the team as a whole; whether they're working hard enough, and if not, whether the manager ought to command more a response through his motivational (or perhaps lack of) skills to bring about a change. Such criticisims are justified, IMO. He is, after all, the gaffer. Yet how he goes about remedying these types of issues - and whether his approach is fundamentally flawed or otherwise - is very hard to deduce.

by **paisleyred** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:25 pm

apparently bookies have stopped taking bets on rafa resigning.just recieved text from brother.

by **GYBS** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:27 pm

that is a very very good post hard to pick a fault with it - reading both carra and gerrards autobios provides a great insight into rafa and while he isnt all cuddly he isnt this cold unapproachable figure that some seem to be making out - he is always looking to improve the players and wont molly coddle them while he still is an approachable person - thats what i can see from the books and telly pictures i have seen from training where i have seen him having a laugh with the players joining in with jokes - chatting to the players with both of them having a smile on their face .

by **Effes** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:28 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Honestly, I think it matters not a jot whether Rafa publically refers to his players by their first names, second names, nicknames, or indeed their pen names. What really matters is how he manages his relationship with them when it counts; during training and teambuilding, and in the dressing room before, during and after the game - whenever they're together in a professional capacity essentially. That's when he can whisper words of encouragement, usher in calm or deliver a stinging rebuke; whatever he feels is necessary under the circumstances. While PR may have some bearing on this relationship, it's not often easy to deduce much of any significance without taking a leap, and the choices of name Rafa uses to address his players falls into that category. That he calls Gerrard 'Stevie' more often than he calls Dossena 'Andrea' really isn't enough to substantiate the claim that he's decided to take a more 'arm round the should approach' with certain players over others, far from it. In fact, he refers to lots of different players in different ways at different times, so to my mind there's no real pattern of any significance anyway. I'm quite certain too, that Ferguson uses 'Rooney' and 'Berbatov' on occasions, that Mourinho used to use 'Terry' and 'Lampard' on occasions. By itself, it's a very, very limited measure of a manager's relationship with his players, IMO.

What's more reliable as a gauge of this relationship are the accounts of the players themselves - as in Carra's autobio - as they offer player-perspective, which provides actual insight rather than any of this naming nonsense (and it is ). So we know for example that Carra and Gerrard see him as being quite a clinical character at times; absolute professionalism being the default position of his man-management style, just as it ought to be in my opinion. How he maintains these professional boundaries, while offering - when necessary - the approachable 'arm round the shoulder' tact is a balance most managers have to face. It's patently obvious, I know, but different characters require different approaches - dispositions are diverse. How are we too assess with any real sense of justification whether he did enough to comfort one player, or to praise or criticise another? It's an inherently personal aspect of management; players themselves will have different perspectives on this for start, so for us as outsiders to glean enough to be able to criticise strongly is a big stretch. At best as outsiders, I think it's sensible to offer broad observations on the attitudes of certain players on the pitch, and of the team as a whole; whether they're working hard enough, and if not, whether the manager ought to command more a response through his motivational (or perhaps lack of) skills to bring about a change. Such criticisims are justified, IMO. He is, after all, the gaffer. Yet how he goes about remedying these types of issues - and whether his approach is fundamentally flawed or otherwise - is very hard to deduce.

So, in short, you say close the thread ?

by **LFC2007** » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:42 pm

paisleyred wrote:apparently bookies have stopped taking bets on rafa resigning.just recieved text from brother.

He's just shot up in the sack race, now at 3/1 and favourite.

It's been known to happen in the past, could it be caused by a tip off or has it come of the back of recent speculation?

Liverpool FC Forum

Rafa's man management...... - Undergoing subtle changes?

Who is online