Liverpool FC Forum

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:08 pm

First of all I would like to thank Mr Houllier for taking us from a sqaud of jokers into a squad that should be amongst the top teams. I don't think we are that short of being able to compete with the "Big Three". Rather than major overhaul I think the squad needs a little bit of fine tuning. I think we are three quality players short of being able to compete. But those players must be players that a ready for the first team, rather than potential first teamers (i.e.Biscan,Diao,Smicer).

I would cut my loses with Heskey, get rid of Troare, and Henchoz(let me explain), and get Babbel of the books. Henchoz has been great for us but we need at least one centre back with pace.

Then I would bring in Boumsong on a free to partner Hyypia at the back. Although Diouf has done well on the right, he often looks isolated, and dosen't look like part of the midfield, this comes from him being more of a striker. I would do my upmost to bring in Simon Davies, though it would be diffucult it is not imposible, he would probarly cost around 9 Mil. Then lastly we need to address the ongoing problem of 'Who partners Owen'? I am not sure about Cisse, I would like to see more of him before making a final judgement, if not him there are others out there, I have mentioned Mark Viduka a number of times and there others.

But these are the problems that need addressing in the immediate future, for the long term I think we will have to replace Hyypia for someone faster in order to complate our defence, and also Hamann, he is to slow, it remains to be seen wether Diao can provide the solution.

I do think the current squad is strong and should not drop below 4th place and maybe could brake into the top three. But some of Houllier's decisions over the past year have deaply disapointed me, not playing an anchor man, Diao should have played this season, also he never gave a run to Cheyrou last season, when we had no left sided midfielder, he's reluctance to cut his loses on Heskey, playing Smicer in the wide positions when anyone can see that he's at his best when in the middle behind the strikers.

The fact that Houllier has now changed his mind and has decided to play in an attacking manor, tells me that he dosen't really have his own set of beliefs on how the game should be played, or he dosen't have enough confidence in his ability.

I think Houllier is a very proud man, and will never step down, so I think it is up to the board to tell him in the summer that his time is up.

by **jonnymac1979** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:35 pm

I'm getting well fed up of Heskey. If he was used as a late substutute with 20 mins to go, he would probably be more effective as a player.

I'm filled with dread lately. Omly two years ago I looked forward to every game we played. Now, I take a win as a rare thing.

The draws and losses are taking over my mentality, that being in the fact that im telling myself "Go into the game expecting a draw or a loss, then you can tell yourself that it is okay, you knew it was going to happen. If we actually win - well what a bonus!!!!"

I think Heskey epitomises everything about our side. Tries hard but ultimately fails, ineffective and mediocre.

Journalists afar have been talking down Michael Owen leaving. They believe he will sign a new contract. Brian Reade from the Daily Mirror hit the spot when he said Steven Gerrard only signed a three year deal, so in eighteen months, we will be right back where we have just left off.

Well I believe we have got a job on our hands keeping these players. Something has got to give way. Changes have to be made. Who's kidding who? We are not the team our reputation would have people believe.

by **redandblue** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:06 pm

Wake up lads. Stop believing that Liverpool are nearly in the top three or that we are just one or two signings from greatness. Just look at the results over the past year. Look at the performances. The statistics don't lie.......we are a mediocre side with a manager who has passed his expiry date. He is a clown who has done a lot of damage to the club. Liverpool FC needs a new manager, quite a few new players. It also needs the fans to show their displeasure with continued mediocrity.

by **big al** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:19 pm

Has it saddens me to disagree with you mate because most of your posts I agree with. I have to however agree with redandblue but I'll explain why.

I used to watch a lot of football but in the last few years I have concentrated all my focus purely on liverpool and the opponents they meet.

This has had the effect of making me look at the premiership with blinkers on and except for the current top three, Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea I have had no real assessment of the other teams. What I mean is I have'nt been watching how teams like Blackburn for instances stack up against Charlton for example.

In the last few months however that has changed I've been watching every TV game and have seen a few live games too. This has changed my whole perspective of Liverpool's status in the premiership.

Many of the other premiership sides are actually quite good teams but there is definetly a league within a league in the premiership. There are the top three already mentioned. They are way out in front of any other team, its like men and boys stuff there.

Then there's a group of pretenders Newcastle, Liverpool, Birmingham, Charlton, Fulham, Middlesbrough, Southampton, Man city, Spurs and Portsmouth. Some of these teams have already damaged Liverpools title hopes.

Behind this lot come the also rans, the relegation teams. Now some of the pretenders could end up fighting it out with these teams but on paper they should'nt.

Anyway look at the pretenders, its a mini league on its own. Objectivelyask yourself this, is any of the good enough to trouble the top three? No they're not on that class not even Liverpool.

Gasps from you I'm sure

But realistically Liverpool would be doing well to win a division of pretenders only. That's why so many people are settling for fourth place because all the pretenders could finish above our current team, which would mean liverpool being in 13 place.

We have played 13 games won 5 lost 5 drawn 3. Everyone of the top three have beat us two of them at Anfield. Liverpool are pretenders there are no two ways about it. The other pretenders don't fear us infact two of them have beat us and three of then have drawn with us.

This is the current state of the team. Simply not good enough to win the Premiership.

Houlier thought he was close to breaking into the elite group. He thought that he'd be there long before Chelsea.

Yes Abrahamovic's money has propelled Chelsea to the possibility of winning the title.

But Houlier had a chance of doing this too. He's spend as much as chelsea. Difference is they bought a lot of British based talent and are trying to conquer the premiership from within not without.

Houlier is trying to do what Chelsea also tried several years ago and failed.

Remember the great players they bought Zola etc. This did not work. So Raneri changed tack and realised the basis of Being in the elite of british footbal is in bringing English or home based players through. Also adding proven British based players and bringing truly World class players in to the team.

Think about this way of working

Ferggie done it
Wenger done it
Raneri done it

What did Houlier do?

1. Let local players leave! Fowler, Thompson etc
2. Gambled on buying young foreign unproven players (I'm not talking about pongolle or le Tallec) Traore, Vignal, Diouf, etc
3. Bought unproven foreign players who he egotisically thought he could develop.
4. Let experienced players leave

Truth is Roy Evans was beginning to come through a rebuilding programme and had started to show potential. He had schooled a lot of the young players that are now the back bone of Houliers team. Ie Owen, Gerrard without these two Liverpool would not even be pretenders.

I could go on and on about the failures of Houlier but I would be only making myself a lot angrier.

Ask yourself these questions,

Is Liverpool progressing each year within the premiership?
Are we in the elite of British football?
Are we consistantly winning against so called weaker teams?
Do other clubs fear playing against us particularily at Anfield?
Have we loads of young home based talent breaking through into the team?
Can Houlier analyse a game and act appropriately taking advantage of other teams weakness?
Doe's he instill loyalty in his players?
Is watching Liverpool enjoyable?

The big question
Do you as a Liverpool fan expect to beat everybody or do you fear other teams?

The elite and the pretenders don't fear us. Once every club team in the world did.

by **greenred** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:24 pm

I have to agee with you al.we are going nowhere fast.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:32 pm

Yes I totaly agree that the top three are way ahead of the rest, including us, but when you look at our squad it is strong, in reality we shoud be competing for 4th place, the only other threats would be Newcastle and maybe Man City. I think with the squad we have it should be considered a faliure to finish outside the top 4.

Last season Gerrard and Owen deemed the season as a faliure, and I took some heart from the fact that the players were not making excuses, but then Carragher said that if someone offered him 5th place and a worthingting cup medal he would have taking it, and he said the season was not a faliure, I was abosolutley outraged and disgusted with this, it just goes to show that footaball is also about mentality, the best players always strive to improve while the average and mediroce are happy to stand still.

But we must ask ourselves why aren't we one of the front runners for the most important 4th spot, if we have the squad and even Houllier has stated that we do, then the blame must lie at he's feet. I think he's in the last chance saloon and if he dosen't finish within the top 4, he will get the chop.

We had a great chance to catch up with Arsenal and Man Utd, Arsenal can not strenghting and are just trying to hold on to there best players, and Man Utd are going through a period of change with young players coming more to the fore front. This was our chance to break through (Chelsea apart) and really level the playing field, but we took several steps back.

Also I agree that after spending all that money on the academy we should have a few more players brakeing through, John Welsh looks a quality player but dosen't get a chance, even in the Worthington Cup. He is 20 now and hope he is not wasted because I think he can make the grade.

On the topic of the squad, what I am saying is that it dosen't need major over haul, just tinkering with, a few out, and a few in that can go straight into the first team and improve us, players like Murphy and Carragher can't be first team if you want to compete with the top three. Just a few proven quality players could make a huge improvement to us.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:43 pm

Don't forget the squad hasn't changed much since we finished 2nd, so anything can happen,it is not imposible to break into the top 3 with some well thought out transfers.

by **JBG** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:21 pm

Whats wrong with us? Where do we start?

Houllier built the current team over a number of years as being a team which would be physically tough, very difficult to break down and lethal on the counter attack.

He had some great early success with this, as 2001 and 2002 showed, when we clearly looked like we were going places.

However, as good a side as the 2001 and 2002 teams were, they had huge limitations. The whole thing depended on our two centre halfs lying VERY deep (Henchoz and HYppia), our full backs staying in their own half, and an achor man who protected the defence (Hamman). This, with Westerveld and then Dudek in goal, was Houllier's famous (and for a while, extremely successful) Diamond shield formation.

This tactic made it very difficult to score against Liverpool, especially away from home.

Offensively we then relied on direct fast balls to our two front men. Our midfield was effectively by-passed, with Steven Gerrard wide on the right wipping in early balls to Owen and the likes of Murphy, Smicer, Berger and Barmby trying to support the forwards when the ball went forward. For about 14 months, Gary McAllister gave us a bit of polish and a few goals from out of the blue.

The problem with this was that we suffered from a lack of width, and ultimately, as the team got better and had more success, opposition sides came to Anfield and defended. We therefore had a situation where we could be nearly world class away from home in Europe, but struggling to beat the likes of Middlesbro and Charlton at Anfield.

It soon became clear that while Houllier's Liverpool were a formidable side, they would always be five or six points away from being Champions.

Last season Houllier tried to open the side up a bit. Carragher and Riise were encouraged to go forward, and Diouff was signed in an effort to provide some width/compliment the front two.

However, Carragher is not a good attacking full back (although he's a very good defender) and Diouff struggled after the World Cup. It also became obvious that we were too reliant on Owen for goals, as Heskey failed to live up to his early promise.

The team, which had enjoyed a lot of success under Houllier, couldn't adapt to the bad spell last year and a lot of heads dropped.

This year Houllier is attempting an even more expansive game. However, his Diamond Shield players are not suitable for this. To play a pressing, attacking game, your centre halfs need to be up around the centre circle when you have the ball, and if you lose possession they need to be very fast to defend on the break. This is what Man UTD do with Ferdinand and Silvestre, who are extremely athletic and fast defenders.

Hyppia and Henchoz are technically better defenders than Silvestre and Ferdinand, but they are a lot slower and only look comfortable defending on the edge of their own box, not defending on the half way line.

Also, neither Henchoz or Hyppia are good "ball players", and they are not going to thread many balls through to the forwards.

Houllier has tried to change things by signing Finnan, but realistically he needs two new centre halves as well.

Also, we never did replace McAllister. Murphy has done well, but McAllister delivered a bit of magic when it was really needed (i.e against Everton in 2001, Alaves in the UEFA Cup).

by **dundees pace** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:05 am

I think we have to give it a little bit more time. Ok we finished 5th last season compared to 9th now but as a season ticket holder I've had my a#se bored off the last couple of years. At least this season theres been the odd occasion that I've got up off my seat - thats before some git of a steward has come rushing over of course!

To me (& virtually everone else it seems) in the absence of Baros we are lacking a goalscorer alonside Owen. Hate to slag off somebody as fragile as Emile, but he's had more than long enough & he's clearly not up to it.

Surely Sinama's worth a start. He has an impact every time he comes on. Ok him & Michael are small but is there really any need for a giant with our new philosophy?

by **gary** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:52 am

dont get out much do you helmet talk about something interesting like budgies you better hurry up or you will miss the last train to hamilton square oh the joys of being a tranmere supporter

by **cheesecakery** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:28 pm

John Barnes' Granny wrote:Whats wrong with us? Where do we start?

Houllier built the current team over a number of years as being a team which would be physically tough, very difficult to break down and lethal on the counter attack.

He had some great early success with this, as 2001 and 2002 showed, when we clearly looked like we were going places.

However, as good a side as the 2001 and 2002 teams were, they had huge limitations. The whole thing depended on our two centre halfs lying VERY deep (Henchoz and HYppia), our full backs staying in their own half, and an achor man who protected the defence (Hamman). This, with Westerveld and then Dudek in goal, was Houllier's famous (and for a while, extremely successful) Diamond shield formation.

This tactic made it very difficult to score against Liverpool, especially away from home.

Offensively we then relied on direct fast balls to our two front men. Our midfield was effectively by-passed, with Steven Gerrard wide on the right wipping in early balls to Owen and the likes of Murphy, Smicer, Berger and Barmby trying to support the forwards when the ball went forward. For about 14 months, Gary McAllister gave us a bit of polish and a few goals from out of the blue.

The problem with this was that we suffered from a lack of width, and ultimately, as the team got better and had more success, opposition sides came to Anfield and defended. We therefore had a situation where we could be nearly world class away from home in Europe, but struggling to beat the likes of Middlesbro and Charlton at Anfield.

It soon became clear that while Houllier's Liverpool were a formidable side, they would always be five or six points away from being Champions.

Last season Houllier tried to open the side up a bit. Carragher and Riise were encouraged to go forward, and Diouff was signed in an effort to provide some width/compliment the front two.

However, Carragher is not a good attacking full back (although he's a very good defender) and Diouff struggled after the World Cup. It also became obvious that we were too reliant on Owen for goals, as Heskey failed to live up to his early promise.

The team, which had enjoyed a lot of success under Houllier, couldn't adapt to the bad spell last year and a lot of heads dropped.

This year Houllier is attempting an even more expansive game. However, his Diamond Shield players are not suitable for this. To play a pressing, attacking game, your centre halfs need to be up around the centre circle when you have the ball, and if you lose possession they need to be very fast to defend on the break. This is what Man UTD do with Ferdinand and Silvestre, who are extremely athletic and fast defenders.

Hyppia and Henchoz are technically better defenders than Silvestre and Ferdinand, but they are a lot slower and only look comfortable defending on the edge of their own box, not defending on the half way line.

Also, neither Henchoz or Hyppia are good "ball players", and they are not going to thread many balls through to the forwards.

Houllier has tried to change things by signing Finnan, but realistically he needs two new centre halves as well.

Also, we never did replace McAllister. Murphy has done well, but McAllister delivered a bit of magic when it was really needed (i.e against Everton in 2001, Alaves in the UEFA Cup).

yeah

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