Liverpool FC Forum

[milou]

This is not a thread to discuss who is right or wrong but a genuine attempt to analyze what is REALLY happening.. bcos let's face it, something is seriously brewing at the background that we dunno about.

With all the ongoing farces on and off-field (the ongoing take-over saga, rafa's rant on fergie, rafa's contract, rafa's comment about rick parry, "ill-treatment" of keane, gerrard's court case, rumours about Gerrard and Carra's unhappiness with Rafa.. just to name a few), does anyone really think these are all independent events and are not related to our bliiiip of form?

To me, it is blatantly obvious that they are all related in one way or another.

I picked up something quite significant from Rafa in the post-match interview after Wigan draw.. He said:

"The second half was a crazy game and when it is a crazy game you cannot control things."

"No I am disappointed with a number of things but no, the Wigan approach I will not talk about them"

What does he mean by "you can't control things"?
What is so crazy about the game? I saw the match and I can't see anything crazy about it. So he is obviously referring to something we CANNOT or NOT ALLOWED to see.

"It has happened in the last three games. They have something in common I don't like. I know why but I cannot say anything.

Something common in the last 3 matches (Everton, Everton, Wigan)? What is so common about the 3 matches since he fielded different line-up each time?
We know he can and will always say anything and everything about the match so if he says he cannot say, it must be something internal and sensitive.

"The players were okay. They were working very hard in the first half but the second half changed because it was crazy.

Does he mean the players don't work hard anymore in second half? Why? Or even if so, why can't he control it?

"I was talking with my players about what to do on the pitch but there are things that you cannot control."

This to me is the single most significant statement.. Was he implying he can't control the players and they don't listen to his instructions anymore?

I am just trying to make sense of everything that is happening thick and fast.. So this is my SPECULATION about our current situation:

There is an obvious "power struggle" between rafa, RP/H&G.. hence all the contract's talk in the press.. and it is related to Keane's "ill treatment" (it is hard to argue otherwise) bcos for some strange and unknown reason to us... Keane wasn't Rafa's choice.

The players are feeling the heat from the power struggle and our bliiiip and key players started to have disagreement with Rafa.. hence rumors about Gerrard & Carra's unhappiness with Rafa.

I will go ahead to even speculate that Gerrard's late substitution is related to him "not carrying out instructions". Let's face it, there is ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER explanation not to leave your best player/top scorer/miracle worker on the field for the last 7min if you are chasing a winner! Too tired to last 7min? Come on!

Is there a "mutiny" in the dressing room?

I hope I am totally wrong.. Or if Rafa can turn things around, we may never know what is really happening. But if results don't go our way in the next few weeks, I ask everyone to brace up for some shocking news that may include Rafa's resignation or sacking.

Sit tight and see how events will unfold.

Thoughts please...

[SupitsJonF]

He said Everton were sitting back, so I assume in the last 3 games he meant that Wigan was also sitting back.

[account deleted by request]

"The second half was a crazy game and when it is a crazy game you cannot control things."

I think he was meaning that the game was too open and with us leading we should have been closing it down, and playing a more controlled game.

No I am disappointed with a number of things but no, the Wigan approach I will not talk about them"

I think he was meaning the physical and cynical way that Brown was fouling Gerrard.

"It has happened in the last three games. They have something in common I don't like. I know why but I cannot say anything.

Either he was meaning the Refereeing because of what he said about Fergie,or as I said in another thread ...... maybe the players wern't listening to his instructions

"The players were okay. They were working very hard in the first half but the second half changed because it was crazy.

When a game is played as openly as that its difficult to make changes that would have any impact.

I was talking with my players about what to do on the pitch but there are things that you cannot control."

Again maybe the players wern't listening to his instructions, possibly because they think its likely he may leave (worst case) or because they were so keen to do well (best case)

[112-1077774096]

certain players know we can perform much better with the right selection and a less negative attitude, they feel the tactics are stifling them and costing us points. rafa has lost the confidence of the senior players.

the comments about control on the pitch i feel comes from us conceding from set pieces. we all know zones don't score goals and our defenders are left defending empty zones while the likes of cahill wanders around the area at will.

[bigmick]

It's a good post Milou, and raises some interesting questions. To be fair to the manager though, I wouldn't take what he is currently saying too literally. It's worth remembering that English isn't his first language and that sometimes if he gets excited he may not be crystal clear in what he means. I interpreted the "crazy" comments as meaning that the game became more end to end than Rafa would ideally have liked. He probably felt that we should have been concentrating more on keeping the game under control than trying to turn into a cup tie, and to be honest when you're 1-0 up I can see where he's coming from.

There is also the distinct possibility/likelyhood that he's asking Gerrard to sit in more when we are in front, and perhaps feels the captain is a little too gung-ho on occasions. I can't help but think back to the Everton goal at Anfield where Benayoun was exposed on the right one on one with Amechobi. That can't have been part of the plan, and neither can Lucas having to make up fifteen yards of space and then put in a tackle on koumas inside our box. Somebody isn't doing it right, but without properly seeing it it's impossible to see who it is. Judging by the substitution though, my guess is it's Gerrard and we are seeing the beginings of a power struggle between the captain who like the rest of us thinks we should be more attacking, and the manager who doesn't.

Further forward, Torres doesn't look right to me. There's something I can';t quite put my finger on which is making him look different to last season (and it isn't just his haircut). Whether he is siding with Gerrard or Keane, or the players are on the drift now they are fairly sure the manager will be gone soon is impossible to tell. You're right though, something looks amiss with the players. We haven't got the same spirit we had at the start of the season, we don't play with the same rhythm and tempo. We don't make anywhere near so many chances as either we did or we are entitled to given our posession, and even defensively we have a vulnerability about us, an underbelly which looks like it may be exposed at any moment.

It's worth remembering that our run of extremely poor form has coincided with some very winnable games. It's not even as if we are playing good sides, we aren't. That is to come starting Sunday, and from somewhere we've got to find not just a method, but some collective will to change the course of our season. Whether it will be done though in the current atmosphere remains to be seen. If we do lose, I have the gravest fears for the way our season may go, without the bonding elements of a strong team spirit.

[milou]

certain players know we can perform much better with the right selection and a less negative attitude, they feel the tactics are stifling them and costing us points. rafa has lost the confidence of the senior players.

the comments about control on the pitch i feel comes from us conceding from set pieces. we all know zones don't score goals and our defenders are left defending empty zones while the likes of cahill wanders around the area at will.

He kept mentioning last three matches but we didn't really concede from set-pieces or zonal defence in the Wigan match.. It was a penalty.

[Owzat]

He said Everton were sitting back, so I assume in the last 3 games he meant that Wigan was also sitting back.

That is the conclusion I drew as well, the "they played with 10 men behind the ball" and the old 'hard tackling' whinge that he probably decided not to pursue. And as mentioned already in this thread, the tendancy to take players out with fouling a la Gerrard.

But at times we give away petty and silly fouls, maybe in ways we are like our opposition in the way we concede them in supposedly harmless positions just inside our half so I don't think Rafa can complain too much about opposition spoiling tactics.

These teams do the same against Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal, difference is they cope with the 'negative' approach much better. The mancs score, that's a key, and often once they have the first they get a second. They also are much more solid defensively, not conceding a silly/avoidable goal when 1-0 up.

What Rafa is effectively doing is holding up his hands to being clueless how to beat what he describes in "It has happened in the last three games." That may not be his intention, but that's what he's effectively doing. fergie hasn't had to use that whinge because his side finds a goal from somewhere, was it Moaninho or Fat Phil who coined their "parked the bus" whinge when they had the same trouble as Rafa in breaking sides down? The more it happens, the more the manager whinges, the more the teams can identify what stops Liverpool, the more we suffer from it. How do you stop Liverpool? Do you need to watch six or seven games or merely the last one? In fact do you need to watch any? Much reported problems, just mimick the effective spoiling tactics and consider yourself unlucky if you lose.

They know they don't need to attack too much, just pick up a goal from a set-piece and they more than likely will get a point. Don't need to beat the full-back, just kick the ball off him for a corner and take advantage of our poor defending from it.

[Owzat]

certain players know we can perform much better with the right selection and a less negative attitude, they feel the tactics are stifling them and costing us points. rafa has lost the confidence of the senior players.

the comments about control on the pitch i feel comes from us conceding from set pieces. we all know zones don't score goals and our defenders are left defending empty zones while the likes of cahill wanders around the area at will.

He kept mentioning last three matches but we didn't really concede from set-pieces or zonal defence in the Wigan match.. It was a penalty.

For the goal Lescott scored, Cahill was left unmarked by Alonso I believe it was. He was close enough to be in his "zone", but since these "zones" aren't painted on the pitch, isn't there going to be confusion and laziness when the defender decides it isn't in his zone - correctly or not?

The defence could have stepped up half a yard and played Lescott offside, before the corner was struck two of them were offside and Lescott had only just got onside. Either push out and let the dog (keeper) see the rabbit (ball) or men on each post behind the line. We did neither, it was a soft goal. Been plenty of soft goals this season, Carra's og(s), the Lucas penalty, the Lescott header, the man utd goal, and that's just a few off the top of my head. I'm sure a lot of the rest are simply down to slack or non-existent marking, how many have been carved out with fine moves that you simply shrug off, applaud and say "good move" or "good goal" ? Zaki maybe? Possibly one or two others that I can't readily bring to mind.

[GYBS]

Rumours of Carra and Gerrard unhappy with rafa ? where are these rumours from ? the media ? people on forums or stands going for the whole chinese whispers - nothing so far i have heard from anyone suggests that carra or gerrard has said or feel anything of the sort - you never know of course but we all know most of the rumours end up being a loads of cr ap in the end .

How does someone know the players feel the tactics are stiffling ?

and how does someone know that rafa has lost confidence in certain senior players ?

Hotline to melwood ?

[milou]

It's a good post Milou, and raises some interesting questions. To be fair to the manager though, I wouldn't take what he is currently saying too literally. It's worth remembering that English isn't his first language and that sometimes if he gets excited he may not be crystal clear in what he means. I interpreted the "crazy" comments as meaning that the game became more end to end than Rafa would ideally have liked. He probably felt that we should have been concentrating more on keeping the game under control than trying to turn into a cup tie, and to be honest when you're 1-0 up I can see where he's coming from.

There is also the distinct possibility/likelyhood that he's asking Gerrard to sit in more when we are in front, and perhaps feels the captain is a little too gung-ho on occasions. I can't help but think back to the Everton goal at Anfield where Benayoun was exposed on the right one on one with Amechobi. That can't have been part of the plan, and neither can Lucas having to make up fifteen yards of space and then put in a tackle on koumas inside our box. Somebody isn't doing it right, but without properly seeing it it's impossible to see who it is. Judging by the substitution though, my guess is it's Gerrard and we are seeing the beginings of a power struggle between the captain who like the rest of us thinks we should be more attacking, and the manager who doesn't.

Further forward, Torres doesn't look right to me. There's something I can';t quite put my finger on which is making him look different to last season (and it isn't just his haircut). Whether he is siding with Gerrard or Keane, or the players are on the drift now they are fairly sure the manager will be gone soon is impossible to tell. You're right though, something looks amiss with the players. We haven't got the same spirit we had at the start of the season, we don't play with the same rhythm and tempo. We don't make anywhere near so many chances as either we did or we are entitled to given our posession, and even defensively we have a vulnerability about us, an underbelly which looks like it may be exposed at any moment.

It's worth remembering that our run of extremely poor form has coincided with some very winnable games. It's not even as if we are playing good sides, we aren't. That is to come starting Sunday, and from somewhere we've got to find not just a method, but some collective will to change the course of our season. Whether it will be done though in the current atmosphere remains to be seen. If we do lose, I have the gravest fears for the way our season may go, without the bonding elements of a strong team spirit.

Mick, you have a good point about English not being Rafa's first language.. but my impression so far is that his command of English is pretty solid and he normally chooses the right words to express his thoughts/feelings very clearly and accurately.

He mentioned CRAZY, CAN'T CONTROL, CAN'T SAY more than once.. That is unusual from him, esp if it is matter related to tactics or even refereeing decisions. This is the same man who just grilled the whole FA all on his own.

Most of all, the Gerrard's substitution is simply UNEXPLAINABLE from tactical standpoint. So the only explanation is that he is unhappy with Gerrard not following his instructions. Remember vs Everton last year when he did the similar thing and later said Gerrard played with his heart but not his head?

Looking at the whole situation... I think it is possible that the players, led by Gerrard (Hence the rumors) are starting not to listen to him.

[milou]

Rumours of Carra and Gerrard unhappy with rafa ? where are these rumours from ? the media ? people on forums or stands going for the whole chinese whispers - nothing so far i have heard from anyone suggests that carra or gerrard has said or feel anything of the sort - you never know of course but we all know most of the rumours end up being a loads of cr ap in the end .

How does someone know the players feel the tactics are stiffling ?

and how does someone know that rafa has lost confidence in certain senior players ?

Hotline to melwood ?

GYBS, we DON'T KNOW.

Like the topic title, I am just trying to understand what is really happening, without Rafa telling us everything.

But I am CERTAIN there is something happening on the background but I can only speculate what it might be.. from what Rafa said, his body language, his substitution, etc.

Isn't this what forum debate is all about? 

[Ciggy]

Rumours of Carra and Gerrard unhappy with rafa ? where are these rumours from ?

They warmed down away from the other players well 50 yards away from the team. Aldo said they where in deep conversation with each other and didnt look to pleased.

Rewind back to last seasons game against West Ham when he brought Lucas on instead of Crouch remember Gerrard and Carra fuming and shaking their heads at the crazy decision.

They are Liverpool fans as much as we are they can see his decisions are baffeling at times.

[dawson99]

Rumours of Carra and Gerrard unhappy with rafa ? where are these rumours from ?

They warmed down away from the other players well 50 yards away from the team. Aldo said they where in deep conversation with each other and didnt look to pleased.

Rewind back to last seasons game against West Ham when he brought Lucas on instead of Crouch remember Gerrard and Carra fuming and shaking their heads at the crazy decision.

They are Liverpool fans as much as we are they can see his decisions are baffeling at times.

...But what they are doing is hardly showing team harmony. They are the scousers of the team but they need to be with the whole team, not stood in a corner whispering.

[Ciggy]

...But what they are doing is hardly showing team harmony. They are the scousers of the team but they need to be with the whole team, not stood in a corner whispering.

Carra is 31 he will be seeing less time on the pitch the next few years, Gerrard stayed here to win the prem.

but when they see the manager doing things that dont win the prem 9 draws you cant blame them for being p!ssed off they want a league medal and rightly so.

7 points ahead, then 5, then 3 now 2 points behind.........

[dawson99]

yeah but theres ways to do things. Have a moan together in a room somewhere, not away from the rest of the team in front of the world.. that's all I'm saying.
But they are the ones who know more about the club than anyone, and if they aren't happy then the club really is in some trouble