Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:25 am

I think there is a lot of different factors that go into a performance like we saw tonight. The occasion -big European night ,the opposition - giving us more time and space than we usually get. The players mentality - wanting to show what they can do on a big stage. Maybe the manager getting things right technically in a way he can't in the less technical arena of a league game.

The biggest single factor for me is the desire shown by the players tonight. They wanted to be first to the ball, they wanted to win that game badly yet still played with a freedom that we have hardly ever seen in the league.

Its very frustrating to see us play so well after so many heartbeaking games when if we had shown half the passion and commitment we showed tonight we would have surely won.

by **tonyeh** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:32 am

I think the bottom line is, tonight Liverpool attacked from the midfield (partly because they won the first leg). They followed through on the ball and got bodies into the box. Kuyt was up, Babel was up, Lucas got into the box and even Dossena (who rarely passes the halfway line) got into the box and scored!

All of this support for Gerrard and Torres meant goals were coming.

Now, contrast that with the usual conservative Premiership performance where the midfield is static and simply knocks the ball on for the most part, hoping to pick out the striker and it's obvious why we can put a performance like that in tonight against Real, but fail to beat the likes of Fulham.

by **sgs** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:08 am

tonyeh wrote:I think the bottom line is, tonight Liverpool attacked from the midfield (partly because they won the first leg). They followed through on the ball and got bodies into the box. Kuyt was up, Babel was up, Lucas got into the box and even Dossena (who rarely passes the halfway line) got into the box and scored!

All of this support for Gerrard and Torres meant goals were coming.

Now, contrast that with the usual conservative Premiership performance where the midfield is static and simply knocks the ball on for the most part, hoping to pick out the striker and it's obvious why we can put a performance like that in tonight against Real, but fail to beat the likes of Fulham.

Truth is, we cannot play at this tempo week in week out..We would need much more depth, with players of comparatively high quality. The key thing is having options to be able to do different things, especially on the creative side...Thats where we are especially lacking.

by **JoeTerp** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:48 am

I think a big reason we played the way we did last night was because it was the complete opposite of what Juande Ramos would have been expecting.

by **Effes** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:09 am

I always remember Lee Dixon saying that he spoke to Vieira a couple of months after he
went to Italy. Vieira told him it was a breeze compared to playing in the Premier League.
The time and space he got just made his job in the middle so much easier.

I think this is symptomatic of all the foreign leagues, its a slower game.

In England, the fans demand a much quicker game, higher tempo and very high work-rate.
When these foreign teams come to play English teams I think thats the biggest difference -
they can't match our work rate.

Look at our results against English teams in the Champs League

Chelsea 0-0, 1-0, 0-0, 0-0, 0-0, 1-0, 1-1, 3-2 (AET)
Arsenal 1-1, 4-2 (But we were going out upto the 83rd minute)

I think the Premier League matches are tougher for us, as they can match our work rate.

I will agree with what has already been mentioned - we dont seem to commit so many people forward in League games.
Whether that's Rafa's intention or not is debateable.

by **ConnO'var** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:39 am

s@int wrote:My own view is we showed a passion and comitment tonight that is often sorely missing in League games. The unpalatable truth is that some of our players don't give the same amount of effort and importance to games in the League as they do to the big European nights. How can the same players give a performance like tonight and yet whimper through games at places like Middlesbrough and Stoke?

The only thing I can put it down to is in Europe the whole team is commited to the cause, in the league some are happy to pick up their wages and wait of another payday.

Disagree mate. Especially the last bit.

If that is true, we should wash our hands off the lot of em.
I think it's the way we're set up and the component elements of the current team. We can take on the best of em but we are simply not blessed with the personnel to take out the "park-the bus"-ers.

by **Penguins** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:31 am

Totally agree.

We are too slow and not creative enough when facing teams that play 10 men behind the ball. U need more pace, skill,
invention, one-two's etc to get through the area with little room to manuever.
When we face teams that opens up and attack and give us room we do much better. We like naive teams who attack and do mistakes so we can live off those mistakes.

In conclusion, we play our best when we are regarded as the underdog.
And we can beat anyone in a one off game but over a long grueling season Manure is just better with better player.
It is just that simple even if some doesn't want to realise it and blame it on mentality. That is bull****.

by **Scottbot** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:41 am

s@int wrote:My own view is we showed a passion and comitment tonight that is often sorely missing in League games. The unpalatable truth is that some of our players don't give the same amount of effort and importance to games in the League as they do to the big European nights.

But the same is entirely true of the fans in the stadium mate. You can't compare the atmosphere in the ground last night (wish i'd been there :-( ) to any Saturday or mid-week game in the league. The difference between the two is like night and day.

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:50 am

sgs wrote:What it proves conclusively is that we are capable of playing like this in the big games, be it the CL or the PL. .

Not sure that's always the case in the Premiership, we may have beaten the mancs and Chelsea (twice) but not in the same style.

I think the players were up for it, not game X of 38 but one of a two-legged competition with focus. Win that, prove critics wrong and go to the next round. Helps that Gerrard and Torres were both fit, everyone was up for it and the supporting cast performed well. I couldn't single out one single player for criticism, the misplaced passes were few and far between, BUT the Real defence left far too much room for a top quality side, you could have driven a whole army's tanks through the spaces in it. And they offered little of any consequence up front, they could have had a goal or two from Raul but the game was up by then.

I don't think we should get carried away, most Premiership sides will close us down and give us no space. Had Real done their homework, I doubt we'd have scored more than a couple. The ref would have probably chalked off the first in the Premiership, not sure the penalty would have been given either, so you're probably 0-0 at half-time if that had been in the Premiership with a Premiership ref.

Europe is a different ballgame, to a certain degree even when we play English clubs. There may also be a psychological factor. Having to win week in, week out. Knowing the "best team in the world" is in the league and keeps winning. Knowing we drop too many points. Knowing that if Rafa's tactics are failing that his changes are unlikely to make a difference. Knowing that you need to win 3 in 4 to win the league instead of getting away with an aggregate win and doing the business at Anfield with a European night crowd confident.

We're confident of results when we play in Europe, not so in the Premiership. Why would the players be any different?

by **yolz** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:33 am

I think it has more to do with the kind of team we are
Granted that we showed so much more passion and fire against Madrid, but the current liverpool team is an industrious one,
not a technically gifted team.
We do have players with individual flashes of brilliance, but let's face it, we're not a team that flicks and dazzles our way to victory
We are a team that will look for the counter-attack, to hit you with a sucker punch, while harassing the opposition for every ball
That's one of the reasons "Big" cubs find it difficult to play against us, especially in a knock-out format
However, in the premiership, there are so many other teams that will actually start the game looking to take a point instead of going for the win
That's where our lack of depth shows jarringly
We don't really have players capable of unlocking a packed defence with a deft flick or creating chances by pulling the defence wide
Even Gerrad, God bless his never-say-die attitude, manages his injury time goals through sheer determination
We need players, or maybe even a change in tactics, where we can actually hold on to the ball and create plays instead of looking for the breaks

by **Bam** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:30 am

Not Too Xabi wrote:My take on this is that Rafa's tactical acumen shines far brighter in games against top sides than the teams languishing in the depths of the prem. Also, the better teams have an ambition to beat us rather than stifle us and this plays into our hands.

When teams try to go toe-to-toe with us and take the game the game to us, it plays to our strengths and we can exploit the spaces created.

When teams "park the bus" I think we simply lack the pace, width, guile and options from the bench to open them up and we rely on magic from Gerrard or Torres.

Our full strength first team is a match for anyone in world football but as has been discussed to death, we simply lack the strength in depth to do enough in the league over a full season.

That post was not too Xabi, I agree, well said.

by **Sabre** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:08 pm

At some point of the second half yesterday, 1-2 up, they were piling pressure. That pressure had it peak in a play that stood up Fergie and even started to celebrate a goal.

It was a typical moment of football, in which the rival press, their crowd press, and you struggle to give three passes in a row. Hence, you seem to be too deep, and the fans start being nervous. Had they score the 2-2, the game could have been very different, the tactical genius would be a clown, and a great tactic plan would have been destroyed by Ferguson I, the Great.

But such is football, it's about mentality, and when you have confidence, you get a foul, you look, you score, and you break the game forever.

It's always been the same way, a touch of quality, a touch of effectiveness, makes any plan great or awful.

I don't think Manchester did a bad job to be punnished 1-4 at home, but, such is football, and in all this mentality, and the state of the mind of players have a lot to do.

The victory against Real Madrid set us in a mental position that made the superb result in Manchester possible. I'm not sure we would have scored that 1-3 FK if we had gone to Old Trafford from the M'boro defeat.

Hopefully this victory will bring a chain reaction, we'll have that winning mentality, the rivals will fear us, and the Mancs will have their own winning mentality destroyed. It can be an important victory the one of yesterday, both for the league, and the Champions League. Mancs will be more afraid of piling on pressure, as they know now they're vulnerable.

by **Cool Hand Luke** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:39 pm

We are not well equipped to beat teams who work hard and “park the bus”.

We don’t have enough players who can regularly create opportunities from one run or one pass, and we don’t have enough players who are a goal threat.

We are the best team in world at not getting beat, that’s why we do so well against the big teams in Europe, we can afford to go away from home and play that way because drawing is a good result and the opposition will always attack and try to make the most out of the home advantage. It doesn’t work like that in the Premiership because 90% of the time a draw is a bad result for us a decent/very good result for the opposition.

If Rafa wants to win the league using his current methods we need 4 excellent players in the key positions; right midfield, left midfield, second striker and front man. All these players need to have pace, dribbling ability and goal threat or we are too easy to stop.

Take out Riera and Kuyt and add Robben and Ronaldo and we would win the league under Rafa.

by **Sabre** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:50 am

If Rafa wants to win the league using his current methods we need 4 excellent players in the key positions;

This remains true no matter Rafa keeps using his methods or start using brand new ones.

If you look at teams like Man U or Madrid or Barcelona they have quality upfront (Rooney-Tevez,Henri-Etoo-Messi,Huntelaar-Raul-Higuain-Van Nystel Rooy).

Since Crouch left we haven't brought anyone better, and we need very good second and third options because no matter the methods you choose, injuries, card accumulations and international games will mean less availability of your first option.

In the Right Midfield we need to be better.

Of course when you play upfront with a world class player your confidence as a team is higher, so we need top quality when Torres is not available.

by **Thingy** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:08 am

Its obvious that our strengh in depth is not anywhere near United's or Chelsea's. Its what has cost us this term, I know where in with a shout blah blah but evidently, its cost us. We need another player in the Gerrard and Torres mould, ie world class. And we need 2 or 3 very very good, quick, technically gifted players. Then the teams who park the double deckers will be much easier to beat. Okay it sounds so simple, but it is, really. Andy Gray said yesterday, we've only been able to pick Torres and Gerrard in the same team in the Prem 9 times this season. That shouldnt bother us as much as it has.

Liverpool FC Forum

Winning mentality - And missed chances

Who is online