The winning mentality - Going the extra mile

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Sabre » Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:39 pm

It has taken some moments between yesterday and today to read all this, as I needed some glances to the dictionary.

It was worth the effort, and you guys shouldn't discourage red37 to write this stuff, haven't we moaned enough about threads that start with a one liner? :)

THe problem with this post isn't that it's too long or elaborated but that it touches several points that deserve a thread by themselves

and what a task at hand for the likes of Rafa Benitez on a pedestal of this magnitude. not only must he carefully ensure that the pride, heritage and ambitions which this club has long advocated through its own foundation and precedence, continue to remain a testament and compliment to that history through the impact of his own influence, personality and bearing upon it in all aspects of the present- and to be seen to be doing so


This point keeps worrying me as of late. I've liked Liverpool since the eighties and I'm a fain since 1989 more or less. But I was unaware of how the crowd and fans of Liverpool think for so many years.

When I arrived this forum in 2004, I had to read shít from the press like talking about so called "TOP 3" teams in england in which Liverpool Football Club wasn't in that list. That was absolutelly amazing to me, and I couldn't believe it
:angry:

After Istanbul, and after growing last year, we seem indeed to be in some sort of a pedestal, and people moan about not winning the title.

I was one of the deluded fools that thought we were going to be very close to win the league this year, but I cannot think of an OVERALL FAILURE when I look with perspective how much we have grown in those last years. They were so sad those days in the nineties when I didn't see my fav english team in the Champions...

Excellent post red37, keep up the good stuff
Last edited by Sabre on Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby red37 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:33 am

thanks for the heads up, Sabre lad.


you know, i was watching an old Liverpool game on ESPN classic earlier on (vs Sunderland, old Roker Park -in the snow, complete with orange ball in Nov '80) the commentator (Barry Davies) made several, what id call - 'fair' and 'respectful' comments in our favour during the commentary. the display didnt seem too bad and the game finished 1:4 to Liverpool. but throughout he made reference to us as 'The champions'.(which of course we were) and mentioned the team was going through a lean spell, and were struggling with various issues of the time. but he didnt once sound patronising or derogatory or start coming to conclusions about the team/manager, or their personal gripes... (for BD thats a change!)

and, if that kind of performance away from home was rated as 'below-par' or ordinary!.....you can imagine how much of a pedestal the team really was on at the time, and would go on to become throughout that decade. then ultimately resented because of its success -- especially by the Media.

how short their memories are:  why?  the Premiership is why. and in not winning it..their mentality will never alter. (eg. Blackburn Rovers get better thought of)  nothing pre 92 is of much importance to them (except for the odd 'crusty' ex players overinflated opinion, who spread themselves like algae over the studio, spouting utter cr@p for two hours on a matchday)

so until Liverpool do win it. they will continue to be disregarded, criticised even mocked (we are desperate to get back to the top, right?) for their whole existence and in doing that, ultimately add to the pressure Moores/Parry are faced with. (the media do not want liverpool to return to the top) or did i imagine that?

part of the point im making lay in the words the commentator used. it is highly doubtful todays 'narrative' would be allowed to be as honestly refreshing. (Mr Gray i do mean you). that kind of 'telling of the story' would be way too boring and uncontroversial for Sky/BBC et al in todays 'soap opera' of a televised game.....
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Postby red37 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:02 am

Sabre wrote:It has taken some moments between yesterday and today to read all this, as I needed some glances to the dictionary.

come on be honest... how many of us 'english' speaking people could waltz into a Spanish teams forum and not only, contribute so well to its day to day content. let alone take the time and trouble to understand and bother to comment on, one mans (over laboured, i agree) work as Sabre has tried to do.....

you are a credit to both this forum and the good people of Europe, if not the 'non english' speaking world in general (whom it must be said make much more of an effort) in learning foreign tongues as 'we' arrogant british do. i might get by in a German forum and i could possibly take on board one or two phrases in an italian one. but to make such an admirable contribution as Sabre does....i wouldnt know the first place to begin.

tell me some of you at least have something to add to that...
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Postby account deleted by request » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:10 am

Hola :D
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Postby 66-1120597113 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:29 am

Bonjour !! J'abite a maison en Irland du nord!
Assez grand...Amigo! :D
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Postby red37 » Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:41 am

oh you've been here as well have you...

http://insultmonger.com/swearing/


:D


it'll come in handy for when them crazy 'Gala' n0bheads reappear in a couple of weeks if nothing else...
Last edited by red37 on Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:45 am

You're right red, regarding Psychologists and Sabre.

Our little Steve Bruce look-alike is a credit to the forum, and certainly makes it a better place.

On the subject of the team, I read an interview with Alonso t'other week, where he said that the team had seen Psychologists to try and fathom why we kick a*s in Europe, only to kick ourselves in the League.

They are already in use, my friend, and evidently whomever was employed in the above case is mascarading as a doctor, when infact he (or she) is a git. :D
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Postby The Manhattan Project » Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:37 am

Rafa should do what Louis Gossett Junior did to Richard Gere.

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Postby Sabre » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:07 pm

On the subject of the team, I read an interview with Alonso t'other week, where he said that the team had seen Psychologists to try and fathom why we kick a*s in Europe, only to kick ourselves in the League.


Xabi Alonso was interviewed last year by a San Sebastian newspaper precisely to ask him what he thought about RS using psychologists (RS hired one). He was prompted with some irony that Liverpool psychologist must be very good -at the time we were in a very good form-. Xabi laughed and he said that having a strong mind is important in football, but that Liverpool didn't use any specialist on the matter for that...

I'm a bit sceptical to be honest. The first one to bring a psychologist was Benito Floro in Spain, back in 1989 or so. Since then, many have used them, but I can't see a pattern of success in team that has used them. At the end of the day, to work hard, and a couple of victories does much more for the morale than a specialist, IMO

So visiting a specialist ONCE in a PRECISE moment? why not. Having a specialist in the staff? I wouldn't.

Red37: Thank you but I don't deserve that much praise, you know the credit is to LFC, I wouldn't spend so much time in a forum about politics! :D
Last edited by Sabre on Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby joko » Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:10 pm

can somebody translate red37 article to chinese, please?


:D
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:25 am

joko wrote:can somebody translate red37 article to chinese, please?


:D

Yes - ung ting wa.

:D
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Postby 108-1163930576 » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:29 pm

wrong verb mister
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Postby red37 » Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:51 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
joko wrote:can somebody translate red37 article to chinese, please?


:D

Yes - ung ting wa.

:D

:laugh:  :D

Lando mate- you'd cheer up a tramp, who faced the prospect of another night in a butchers bin.... :D
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Postby red37 » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:37 pm

ive been doing a little research into the role Psychology offers its services to sport (in particular football). quite a few distinguished names cropped up, as a result of a bit of digging ive put together a few thoughts and references to some of the figures involved in the findings below along with a summary ive added on in the respect of this topic.

for our own interests Liverpool, under Houllier appointed Jacques Crevoisier (based at UEFA at the time) in the summer of 2001 to replace the Lens bound Patrice Bergues. Crevoisier holds a PhD in 'Psychology' and the two had previously worked together under GH position at the FFF in the 90's.  Indeed the pair went on to write a book together entitled  "Entraineur: Competence et Passion"  which basically outlines the mental requirements necessary to succeed in football: (so quite relevant here then) Though Houllier, considered himself, to be adept in the pseudo-science of the mind, in considering the following quote of his  “Top players may have all the money they will ever need, but what they cannot buy is success.” (what he's saying is, there is greater emphasis than ever on the technician in creating a winning formula)  Although he maybe should have taken some of the philosophies on board a little better when, Crevoisier approached him and warned against the signing of Milan Baros after witnessing his 'play acting' in a junior fixture in Ireland. The rest of that story is history. Below are some of Crevoisiers quotes:

“There are undoubtedly genetic factors,”  “but the sort of aggression we associate with a ‘winning mentality’ is often a product of environment. It’s not something that’s easy to coach, although you can develop leadership qualities to a certain extent. It’s not enough to keep saying ‘concentration’ or ‘motivation’ to your players is enough. and these are areas that you have to work on.” Significantly, Jacques pronounced an unequivocal ‘no’ when asked whether a psychologist should have a locker in the dressing room. “I’m not opposed to a psychologist dealing with individual cases. But I believe that the coaches should be the psychologists.”

Other related tales of interest are:  David James  who made this comment reflecting on his time while at the club, he says: "I tried to get one at Liverpool and they wouldn't have it. It was said that it's not the done thing in football". Which for me sounds a bit strange considering the above appointment of Jacques Crevoisier....Though James did go on to use the services of Aston Villa's (then) appointed Psychologist Keith Powell so in the end he got his wish. It turned out to be in his favour, citing " It helps keeps your head straight and you go into challenges in the right frame of mind". 

but its far from a solitary instance..Indeed Steve McLaren took ex- Derby County psychologist Bill Beswick with him to both Man Utd (under his own suggestion to the 'almighty one' and then on to Middlesborough to help out with training.  Initially the players at Derby were incredulous to the notion of its use in the dressing room as mentioned by Beswick here: "The players recoiled in horror at the idea of working with a shrink," says the psychologist". Although he also states:  "its the foreign players who responded more willingly to the presence of a sports psychologist. They have learnt to take every possible advantage to get the most of out of their game."  so its just us english who are stubborn then! and confused!! Who knows its more than probable Beswick or somebody else is already applying their services to the National side. (Certainly that may have helped Peter Crouch, if so)  That isnt a precedent either.  under Sven, who had a working relationship with Willi Railo and who again, between the two have also penned a book on the role Psychology can offer towards footballers success. and there are some interesting comments from the ex England coach in this article from 5 years ago:

"The first time that I came into contact with psychology was in 1978, when I was in charge of my first club, Degerfors.
"We played very good football during the year and reached a play-off to get into the Second Division. But in the play-off, we played awfully and the same thing happened the next year. I could not understand why this was happening. How could we play so well during the year and then lose that ability when the important games came?  Everybody was nervous and frightened. So then I contacted a psychologist named Willi Railo, whom I had heard of through a book he had written. I knew that I couldn't help my players any more. The problem was not in their feet, it was in their heads. Since then I have always been interested in the psychological aspect of sport. When I think I can't help a player any more, that's when I take professional help."  Railo, who studied psychology for 10 years at the Norwegian sports institute, believes that 'mental training' with players must be done in advance.

Further pieces that ive managed to track down on the subject are put up here: One question asked to Bert van Lingen (at the time part of the KNVB or the dutch association) was....

In the development of a young player, when should the elements of a winning mentality –competitiveness and aggression – be encouraged to kick in?  he goes on to say.

“I think that, at all levels and at all ages, the aim is to win. But at youth level we must never lose sight of the global objective, which is the development of the individual. in youth football, ‘winning’ means getting better – and improvements are often based on what you learn by losing.”

************************************************

So what is the average profile of a successful coach? The easy answer is to define him or her as a coach who is obsessed with winning and abhors losing. But an obsession –no matter how healthy – is patently insufficient. Andabhorring defeat can so easily translate into a fear of losing that is ultimately counterproductive. In terms of selection, tactics and strategy, the technician can lay the foundations for winning but, these days, the job requires so much more when squads are multi-cultural, multi-lingual and contains many multi-millionaires. It takes talent to man-manage and motivate groups of such diversity, especially when expectations in the stands or soar high.  The winning coach needs a vision and a philosophy for the club, but they need to be based on realistic targets. The winning coach needs to be brave in terms of taking decisions and confronting problems, especially in times of adversity when the day-to-day running of the team can so easily be disrupted by rumours and speculation. Stress management therefore becomes an important issue. a tired-looking manager can often send out a tired-looking team i think its fair to say. The winning coach is one who always transmits positive vibrations via words and body language – especially in those TV interviews within seconds of the final whistle, when a few words out of place can easily exert a negative influence on the whole of the ensuing week. This not only applies to the head coach himself. He has to build and lead an effective team behind the team and between them, they have to ensure that positive attitudes are transmitted not only by the first-team regulars but also by the substitutes and by the non-playing members of a group that always needs to think and act as a team.

How do we though define winning?  The public perception is that it means ending the weekend three points richer. But the tactician can justifiably seek other satisfactions outside the league table. A ‘winning’ coach can be a person who leaves a permanent legacy at the club, in terms of infrastructure, management or facilities. The ‘winning’ coach can be someone who has changed or shaped the image of the club. The ‘winner’ can be the person who stays true to himself. above all a winner in life can never be a loser. There are going to be of course, many other undocumented cases where the science branches out its feelers in the direction of footballs progress. Thats safe to assume given the few examples already highlighted in this thread. Our own Manager apparently is well versed in the field himself so you could equally assume our players mental needs are catered for. (though whether asking for both his players respect and the permission for him to pick their brains at leisure should otherwise be done by an outside impartial influence...) remain a further moral avenue to wander down...but in regards to the question posed as to whether we already or indeed ever have had such additional measures in place at the club, the answer to which is written in the above text.
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Postby alessandromagno » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:33 pm

I think that with psychology and psychiatry people are often reinventing the wheel. You don't need a guru to build up a cohesive team spirit--as we alll know and recognise. Success is the greatest single factor in guaranteeing more success. Although I rate him so highly, I still think of Dalglish's resignation as the most significant single factor that sent us into--comparatively speaking--a long slump. It wasn't necessarily his fault, but the fact remains. What a shock it was and how could such a tremendous blow not have a profound effect. As it turned out, we just missed out on the championship that year--and I think we'd have won if Dalglish had stayed and so have number 19 already in the bag.

The fact of winning does far more to help than psychiatrists or psychologists.
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