Liverpool FC Forum

by **Madmax** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:00 pm

Reina

boswinga
carragher
vidic
evra

essien
Gerrard
Ronaldo
alonso

Rooney
Torres

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:20 pm

Penguins wrote:
Lee J wrote:so basically everyone (except GYBS) thinks we have a maximum of 3 better players and wouldnt pick the rest?

fking sad

Well, the really sad thing is that despite everyone knowing this
can't stop being that Rafa isn't handing them the title on a platter.

No matter if the club is run down the hill like Leeds, it won't stop some supporters of demanding the league title.
Just because you were once great doesn't mean
you have a right to demand nothing less no matter how long time ago that was...

Liverpool mangers job description should be:

"Miracle workers only who has 1/3 of the resources as your rivals" Did we forgot to menation you have to deal with boardroom turmoil all the time. League title is a must!

So you think our players are 3 times as bad as the others?

Seriously?

by **akumaface** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:07 pm

I think you have to also compare how much each player cost or at least worth at the moment. Clearly, Chelsea and Man U both have more expensive players than we do position by position. This is a fact. I know some may argue more expensive doesn't mean better. But most of the best players chosen here(in majority of the selection by different person here) in the different position are in fact among the most expensive in the EPL. The truth again is we don't have the money to compete. If you further compare the bench, there would be even a greater gap. Just look at the number of 10plus million players that ride on the bench for Man U, Chelsea and us....That's why I think Rafa had in fact over achieved and is doing the impossible here. Of course Rafa would publicly says he believe the team is good enough. This is what a Manager should say. In addition to the Yanks and everything going on behind the scene, we should give him another chance. The assumption I made was if Rafa is given the money, he would win. I think he deserve that chance.

by **Sir Roger** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:22 pm

akumaface wrote:I think you have to also compare how much each player cost or at least worth at the moment. Clearly, Chelsea and Man U both have more expensive players than we do position by position. This is a fact. I know some may argue more expensive doesn't mean better. But most of the best players chosen here(in majority of the selection by different person here) in the different position are in fact among the most expensive in the EPL. The truth again is we don't have the money to compete. If you further compare the bench, there would be even a greater gap. Just look at the number of 10plus million players that ride on the bench for Man U, Chelsea and us....That's why I think Rafa had in fact over achieved and is doing the impossible here. Of course Rafa would publicly says he believe the team is good enough. This is what a Manager should say. In addition to the Yanks and everything going on behind the scene, we should give him another chance. The assumption I made was if Rafa is given the money, he would win. I think he deserve that chance.

I disagree
Houllier used the same argument: "give me more money and I will buy better players and win the title" and we all saw who he bought. Therefore just giving more money doesnt necessarily mean getting the RIGHT players, not just the so called best ones. I think its pretty clear now to everyone what type of players and system Rafa prefers.
Whos to say if he had 60 mil that he would buy one or two great players and whether they would fit in his system?

by **akumaface** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:40 pm

Houllier is Houllier and Rafa is Rafa. You can't compare the two as they are different. I'm not saying having money is a sure thing but as the gap between the have and the have not increases, this has a direct effect especially in a long season. If Rafa has money, I'm sure if he will go for someone like David Villa, C. Ronaldo, Walcott etc. The fact that Rafa is buying the likes of Benayuan, Alberloa, Ngog etc is because he doesn't have enough to go around. I know it is always a gamble when buying players but if you have enough money to buy 5 or 6 really expensive players, the probability of a total wash is lower than if you only have money to buy 1 or 2 (liverpool). The fact that we don't have enough money means Rafa has a deliema. Is he going to put all the egg in one basket or spread around to have several average players instead of one great player? You won't know for sure the kind of system Rafa prefers is the same if he has the money. My view is I hate to accept the fact that money buys champion but it certainly gives you a higher probability.

by **eonerf** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:10 pm

GK: Reina
LB: Cole
CB: Carragher
CB: Agger
RB: Bosingwa
LM: Giggs
CM: Gerrard
CM: Alonso
RM: Ronaldo
ST: Torres
ST: Rooney

by **Penguins** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:21 pm

Sir Roger wrote:
Penguins wrote:
Lee J wrote:so basically everyone (except GYBS) thinks we have a maximum of 3 better players and wouldnt pick the rest?

fking sad

Well, the really sad thing is that despite everyone knowing this
can't stop being that Rafa isn't handing them the title on a platter.

No matter if the club is run down the hill like Leeds, it won't stop some supporters of demanding the league title.
Just because you were once great doesn't mean
you have a right to demand nothing less no matter how long time ago that was...

Liverpool mangers job description should be:

"Miracle workers only who has 1/3 of the resources as your rivals" Did we forgot to menation you have to deal with boardroom turmoil all the time. League title is a must!

So you think our players are 3 times as bad as the others?

Seriously?

No, just saying we have 1/3 of the resources.
Then Rafa, for all his mistakes, has done a good enough job
to make us get closer.

The thing about Manure and Chelski is that they can afford a Veron or Shevchenko for £30 million and still do business as usual. We don't have that luxury and such a failure would
have severe repercussions on the club.

akumaface said in the previous post almost the same as I am thinking.
What makes matters worse is our stupendus owners who thinks a football team is some kind of company you can make huge money off.
No offense to the players we are buying, but paying around 7-10 million for players won't ever be enough anymore to win the title. Riera, Benayoun, Kuyt etc are all players which cost around that amount and there is a reason they cost that much.
Pretty useful players but never gamewinners and top players.
We see Torres as a beacon off hope, and he is, but he also cost 20 million. Still, that is peanuts for our rivals with half their 1st eleven filled with such players.

I still am seething sometimes from Rafa's tactical decisions and lineups, but all managers do them and no manager is flawless. But provide enough quality and resources at his disposal and those mistakes won't be as costly as top players will and can save the day anyway.

So until

a) rafa is supported like our rival mangers and can make his own decisions

and

b) a proven manager is out there would could do a better job

I would warn people from believing the grass is greener on the other side. Mourinho is such a no go for me as he never won the CL and got hundreds of millions to spend which is so far from what he will get here.
MON has not convinced me yet that he could do it, but other than that I see noone.

by **darragh** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:28 pm

Sir Roger wrote:If we put our strongest eleven against the mancs or chelski who is the best team
I would say this is our strongest eleven:

Reina
Arbeloa
Skirtl
Garragher
Aurellio
Kuyt
Gerrard
Alonso
Mascherano
Benayoun
Torres

If you put the other teams best eleven against them man for man who would come out on top?

we should never have let anelka get away

he would have been a great partnership with torres instead of players who are nt fit to wear the shirt like kyyt,ngog,

by **Sabre** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 12:57 am

I won't compare apples with tomatoes (Scholes with Alonsos), but I'll compare partnerships.

Gerrard-Alonso vs AnyPartnerSpain+England League

:nod

by **Owzat** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:01 pm

Lee J wrote:so basically everyone (except GYBS) thinks we have a maximum of 3 better players and wouldnt pick the rest?

fking sad

Three teams, even split would give each team 3-4 players even if you disregard superiority in spending etc

The mancs have a very good defence, conceding less than half a goal a game in the Premiership.

Some are trying to be objective rather than subjective

The exercise also only allows you to pick one player per position, you can (and some have) say that it was close, but overall that can't easily be reflected in a list of XI names.

And do you seriously think our LB, RB or RM have a shot at making a combined XI? So that's three positions we're not in serious contention for, so in reality it's 3 out of 8 which is nearly bloody half :veryangry

If you consider the formation 4-4-2 then we only have one striker in contention, there's more to it than simply everyone on here putting half a dozen Liverpool player in. I've seen it on (non-Liverpool) forums, and it is "fking sad" when manc fans load their XIs with manc players and chelsea fans load their XIs with Chelsea players. Even the neutrals can be swayed by media hype.

I could make a case to include Carra and Mascherano as well as Gerrard, Reina and Torres (in my selection), but I also made a case in my head for chelsea and manc players. A lot of calls were close, just because you decided that it was black and white, doesn't mean people on here don't rate more than three of our players. :no

by **Greavesie** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:03 pm

GK Reina (Liverpool)
RB Rafael (Man Utd)
LB Evra (Man Utd)
CB Terry (Chelsea)
CB Vidic (Man Utd)
DM Essien (Chelsea)
RAM Gerrard (Liverpool)
LAM Ronaldo (Man Utd)
RWF Berbatov (Man Utd)
LWF Rooney (Man Utd)
CF Torres (Liverpool)

I agree with this.

Any of the three keepers could have been picked, I don't think any of the three has a particular advantage in that position so personally I'd discount that as being a position where we are necessarily better.

Maybe I'd swap Essien for Mascherano but other than that I agree with this side

also, I know its a bit out of topic but I read that Van Der Sar has only had to make an average of three saves per game this season

by **aCe'** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:39 am

Salty Sock wrote:
Mikz wrote:I would play it like this

Van der sar between the sticks
Carragher over Neville and bosingwa
Evra over aurelio and cole
Ferdinand over Skrtel and Carvalho
Terry over Agger and vidic

Gerrard over Lampard and Scholes
Essien over Masch and carrick
Ronaldo over Malouda and riera
Giggs over mikel and Benny

torres over drogba and berbetov
Rooney over kuyt and Ballack

I thought this was a poem Mikz
It's good though!

ace almost looks like a man utd fan

oh great...quite the funny one arent you....

listen its simple really.. ozwat put it best in his post... if the mancs concede 1/2 a goal per game on average and they have the best defense in the league etc etc then they deserve to get atleast 2 or 3 from the select 11 backline.... there is no case for Carra OR any of skrtel, Agger, Hyypia..anyone else we play there simply because the likes of Vidic, Carvalho, Rio and Terry are miles ahead of them today... Similarly the likes of Mascherano, Alonso, Riera and Reina are massively overrated by our own imo... there isnt much between Reina, VDS, Given, Friedel...etc and the only goalkeeper who truely stands out in this league is Cech.. he lost a little bit of form since his injury but when talking about quality id certainly have him there ahead of the bunch...

Defense
Evra, Bosingwa are also there in the side for a lack of competition...A.Cole is a very good defender but Evra is the better of the two when on the ball and that swings it in his favor for me, add to that his side's defensive record and its a no brainer i guess...

the two in the middle

ideally, you would have the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Mascherano, Essien, Scholes, Carrick, Deco, Ballack, Alonso all fighting for the 2 spots in the middle... but thats not where some of the players above have been playing this season.. Gerrard and Lampard have been given free roles as creative second strikers in their respective teams... and it would seem rather unfair for the others to be competing with the 2 for a spot in the side simply because the pair would have more goals/assists between than all the others in that list combined.. having said that i decided to have 2midfielders and 2 attacking midfielders and a second striker in my team to sort of balance things off...Besides C.Ronaldo, none of the other top teams seem to have any stand out wingers so there would be no point in having 2 wingers in the select 11 side..

all said....my 2 picks for the middle would be Scholes and Essien... in terms of quality theyr better than Alonso, Mascher, Ballack, Deco, Carrick ..etc scholes is miles ahead of carrick, ballack and alonso in terms of influence on the game and all that and essien edges mascherano simply for his ability on the ball and his overall attacking ability...

2 attacking mids

C.Ronaldo and Lampard

2nd striker

between Gerrard and Rooney... i'd go for Gerrard

striker

Torres ahead of Drogba and Berbatov for me..

by **Sir Roger** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:54 am

My question is:
If youve picked another player rather than one of ours for a particular position, how far is that player ahead of ours in relation to ability, skill, work-rate etc?

What I am trying to point out is that our players, in their proper positions and formations arent as bad or that much worse than others.
Its just that something is stopping them from being as good as they should?

by **stmichael** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 7:51 pm

Apparently Sky the other night spouted some b#llocks that since Rafa came to Liverpool, we've spent more money than United. I mean where the f#ck do they get this garbage from?

by **Flight** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:10 pm

dawson99 wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:I'd personally take Reina ahead of Cech and Van Der Sar. It's a close run thing, as all are top keepers. But, I like Reina's mobility, distribution and prowess in penalty shootouts.

A lot of people think Cech is the same keeper he was before his injury. Truth is he flaps a bit now and wont dive in as much. He's got the fear.

Spot on. Cech has been mediocre, by a top teams standards, for the last 18 months. He is living off his past reputation, perpetuated by the UKs standard of sports journalism, which is the worst in the world. This last years performances from him don't deserve him being mentioned in the same breath as VDS and certainly not Pepe.

After winning the golden gloves for best keeper in the Prem for three years on the run, Pepe is finally getting the recognition he deserves.

Apart from Pepe, I'd only pick three of our side. Gerrard and Torres ... and Aurelio. When fit he is the best LB in the country and possibly in Europe. The problem is he is made of glass and when he does return from injury he doesn't play well for his first couple of games back.

Masch was the best DM in the Prem last term, but his form hasn't been good since he was made Argentina captain. Xabi is the best passer of the footballer I've seen since big Jan Molby, but he spends most of the time linking the defense with the midfield, instead of the midfield with the attack.

So, out of our lads, Pepe, Aurelio, Stevie and Nando for me.

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