Liverpool FC Forum

by **metalhead** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:50 am

Toffeehater wrote:
ruskiy playmaker wrote:I'd love it if we swapped him with Pavluchenko.

Pavluchenko is

I would try to hijack the arshavin deal now

by **tonyeh** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:53 am

metalhead wrote:
Toffeehater wrote:
ruskiy playmaker wrote:I'd love it if we swapped him with Pavluchenko.

Pavluchenko is

I would try to hijack the arshavin deal now

Any news on how much Arsenal are paying for him?

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 12:53 pm

I understand some people's counterpoints about Keane not suiting the system, perhaps needing a rest after a busy Christmas program etc. but that doesn't explain why Rafa almost never brings him on as a sub when we're in need of a goal late on. Stoke was just the most recent example of a match where we needed to score and Rafa leaves our second-best striker (in terms of ability, surely no one disputes that?) cooling his heels. It would be one thing if the subs had already been used up to compensate for injuries or bolster the team in other ways but he had a spare fecking sub on Saturday and opted not to throw on the one lad still on the bench who might pop up with a goal. Terrible decision, IMO, and that's got nothing to do with feeling sorry for Keane.

by **Madmax** » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:44 pm

Bad Bob wrote:I understand some people's counterpoints about Keane not suiting the system, perhaps needing a rest after a busy Christmas program etc. but that doesn't explain why Rafa almost never brings him on as a sub when we're in need of a goal late on. Stoke was just the most recent example of a match where we needed to score and Rafa leaves our second-best striker (in terms of ability, surely no one disputes that?) cooling his heels. It would be one thing if the subs had already been used up to compensate for injuries or bolster the team in other ways but he had a spare fecking sub on Saturday and opted not to throw on the one lad still on the bench who might pop up with a goal. Terrible decision, IMO, and that's got nothing to do with feeling sorry for Keane.

For real exactly that what i think aswel just cant understand why he was not used.

by **Chalky** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:14 pm

Keane should be getting a chance. He did well in his last couple of starts, so he's begun to show his class.

by **Redman in wales** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:25 am

Whether we agree that somethings gone on or not, whether lone striker is not right for him etc etc

Here are some facts:

Since saturday 8th November Robbie keane has scored 5 goals

Since saturday 8th November Dirk Kuyt has scored 1 goal

--

Robbie Keane Minutes per goal: 244 mins

Dirk Kuyt Minutes per goal: 345 mins

----

Breakdown of goals:

Keane

2 vs Bolton (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs Arsenal (lone striker) - subbed off

2 vs West Brom (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs A. Madrid (lone striker) - subbed off

1 vs PSV (paired upfront Torres) - subbed off, dropped next game

-------

Kuyt

1 vs Bolton (paired upfront Keane)

1 vs Spurs (started RHS, with keane upfront)

2 vs Wigan (started RHS, with keane upfront)

1 vs Man City (started RHS, keane on as sub, before kuyt scored)

1 vs PSV (started RHS, with keane upfront)

------

So if we want to play a lone stiker, like we did against Stoke, Kuyt hasn't scored as a lone striker this season!!

by **Redman in wales** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:43 am

I put this in the keane thread in the rumour mill... but it might also be quite useful here...

---------------------------------

Whether we agree that somethings gone on or not, whether lone striker is not right for him etc etc

Here are some facts:

Since saturday 8th November Robbie keane has scored 5 goals

Since saturday 8th November Dirk Kuyt has scored 1 goal

--

Robbie Keane Minutes per goal: 244 mins

Dirk Kuyt Minutes per goal: 345 mins

----

Breakdown of goals:

Keane

2 vs Bolton (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs Arsenal (lone striker) - subbed off

2 vs West Brom (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs A. Madrid (lone striker) - subbed off

1 vs PSV (paired upfront Torres) - subbed off, dropped next game

-------

Kuyt

1 vs Bolton (paired upfront Keane)

1 vs Spurs (started RHS, with keane upfront)

2 vs Wigan (started RHS, with keane upfront)

1 vs Man City (started RHS, keane on as sub, before kuyt scored)

1 vs PSV (started RHS, with keane upfront)

------

So if we want to play a lone stiker, like we did against Stoke, Kuyt hasn't scored as a lone striker this season!!

by **heimdall** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:50 am

Redman in wales wrote:I put this in the keane thread in the rumour mill... but it might also be quite useful here...

---------------------------------

Whether we agree that somethings gone on or not, whether lone striker is not right for him etc etc

Here are some facts:

Since saturday 8th November Robbie keane has scored 5 goals

Since saturday 8th November Dirk Kuyt has scored 1 goal

--

Robbie Keane Minutes per goal: 244 mins

Dirk Kuyt Minutes per goal: 345 mins

----

Breakdown of goals:

Keane

2 vs Bolton (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs Arsenal (lone striker) - subbed off

2 vs West Brom (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs A. Madrid (lone striker) - subbed off

1 vs PSV (paired upfront Torres) - subbed off, dropped next game

-------

Kuyt

1 vs Bolton (paired upfront Keane)

1 vs Spurs (started RHS, with keane upfront)

2 vs Wigan (started RHS, with keane upfront)

1 vs Man City (started RHS, keane on as sub, before kuyt scored)

1 vs PSV (started RHS, with keane upfront)

------

So if we want to play a lone stiker, like we did against Stoke, Kuyt hasn't scored as a lone striker this season!!

I can't remember the last time Kuyt scored as a lone striker, as right midfield he was doing an ok job. Keane is very frustrating and misses a lot of chances but the only way to get him back to his best is to give him game time and not to leave him on the bench like Rafa the stubborn zero people skills manager keeps doing.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:04 am

I often don't agree with the manager, but usually I can find some kind of tangible explanation as to why he does things. The Keane sitiuation though has me absolutely baffled. Why pay 20.5 million quid for a striker, play him constantly when he is playing absolutely sh!t (whilst admittedly subbing him in every game), before dropping him each time he scores a goal (and absolutely jettisoning him completely on the odd occasion he scores twice)?

It absolutely beggars belief it really does, and it wouldn't be so bad if we had for instance Torres playing up top and scoring regualry. We don't though, we have Kuyt. Now love him or loathe him, but Kuyt has actually done a fairly decent job on the right. He even scored a few goals earlier in the season whilst playing on the right. I have absolutely no doubts at all that Dirks five league goals at the start of the campaign had a huge effect on our good start to the season. This is the cocktail barman in me coming out here, but why not simply leave Dirky Boy where he was doing a decent job, and leave Keane in the team where he has scored three in three league games?

I called the decision to drop Keane for the second time this season after he had scored two goals in the previous game (away to Newcastle) a ridiculous decision. Some found my comments themselves ridiculous, and couldn't accept that either his confidence would suffer as a result of the selection, or that the manager could be criticised for a fairly eccentric line up as we won 5-1. The result was the be all and end all. A couple of matches later though, Keane has reverted back to his anti bovine cruelty by string instrumentalists stance, Dirky Boy has reverted back to the point where he looks like he's waiting for one to hit his knee, or his ear, and go in, and another eccentric selection has resulted in us failing to see off Stoke. Again.

Three things have struck me over the last couple of days re the Keane situation. Firstly, if Torres had been fit all season and playing anywhere near as well as he did last season, would we already have the title in the bag by now? It would be a miracle to me if he hadn't scored a lot more than Robbie given the appearances.

Secondly, if we had paid 20 million quid for a striker who could be considered even close to being worth it based on performances so far, would we already have the title as good as won?

Thirdly has the policy of subbing Keane regualrly, dropping him when he scores twice etc etc been detrimental to a) his form and b) our league position?

I'm afraid to say that the answers for me are yes, yes, yes and yes.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:58 pm

Redman in wales wrote:Whether we agree that somethings gone on or not, whether lone striker is not right for him etc etc

Here are some facts:

Since saturday 8th November Robbie keane has scored 5 goals

Since saturday 8th November Dirk Kuyt has scored 1 goal

--

Robbie Keane Minutes per goal: 244 mins

Dirk Kuyt Minutes per goal: 345 mins

----

Breakdown of goals:

Keane

2 vs Bolton (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs Arsenal (lone striker) - subbed off

2 vs West Brom (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs A. Madrid (lone striker) - subbed off

1 vs PSV (paired upfront Torres) - subbed off, dropped next game

-------

Kuyt

1 vs Bolton (paired upfront Keane)

1 vs Spurs (started RHS, with keane upfront)

2 vs Wigan (started RHS, with keane upfront)

1 vs Man City (started RHS, keane on as sub, before kuyt scored)

1 vs PSV (started RHS, with keane upfront)

------

So if we want to play a lone stiker, like we did against Stoke, Kuyt hasn't scored as a lone striker this season!!

Interesting reading that, and I think it confirms the suspicions of a lot of us. Some suggested, in the wake of our dismantling of Newcastle, that it might come back to haunt us just a little by giving Rafa a false belief in some of the team that day. Given that we fielded a virtually identical team away to Stoke in our next league match after the Newcastle game, I think there's something to that. Kuyt looked quite effective as a lone striker at St. James's, with Gerrard buzzing about, Lucas actually getting stuck in AND pulling the strings behind etc. Hopefully Stoke has put paid to that team selection now because it sure looks like a one-off on many different fronts.

by **Owzat** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:53 pm

heimdall wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:I put this in the keane thread in the rumour mill... but it might also be quite useful here...

---------------------------------

Whether we agree that somethings gone on or not, whether lone striker is not right for him etc etc

Here are some facts:

Since saturday 8th November Robbie keane has scored 5 goals

Since saturday 8th November Dirk Kuyt has scored 1 goal

--

Robbie Keane Minutes per goal: 244 mins

Dirk Kuyt Minutes per goal: 345 mins

----

Breakdown of goals:

Keane

2 vs Bolton (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs Arsenal (lone striker) - subbed off

2 vs West Brom (paired upfront Kuyt) - subbed off, dropped next game

1 vs A. Madrid (lone striker) - subbed off

1 vs PSV (paired upfront Torres) - subbed off, dropped next game

-------

Kuyt

1 vs Bolton (paired upfront Keane)

1 vs Spurs (started RHS, with keane upfront)

2 vs Wigan (started RHS, with keane upfront)

1 vs Man City (started RHS, keane on as sub, before kuyt scored)

1 vs PSV (started RHS, with keane upfront)

------

So if we want to play a lone stiker, like we did against Stoke, Kuyt hasn't scored as a lone striker this season!!

I can't remember the last time Kuyt scored as a lone striker, as right midfield he was doing an ok job. Keane is very frustrating and misses a lot of chances but the only way to get him back to his best is to give him game time and not to leave him on the bench like Rafa the stubborn zero people skills manager keeps doing.

Reinforces what I've been saying for days/weeks now, Kuyt is effective on the right and ironically looks like a fish out of water up front - especially alone. SIX goals from a RM is what we need, not play him up front for just one. He also sets more up from the RHS of the penalty area

Not entirely sure of the point of "facts" showing Keane scored more goals since 8th November bearing in mind they've scored seven each, Kuyt had played more on the right and there's little common ground for them to be deemed comparable (by any rational person anyway)

Not 100% convinced of Tony's claim that Keane came off "on the hour" in 18 games, the earliest he came off was give or take the 54th minute and so the claim may have some founding in terms of him being subbed but not sure it's always that early. I think the conclusion Keane played only two thirds of those 18 games may require further proof (don't have the stats available on this PC to do it now short of wasting time doing it)

Also the stat stating Keane's mins per goal was 244 across seven goals means he's played around 1700 mins overall, about 20 mins off the bench so for 22 starts it wouldn't add up

60x18 = 1080
4 as sub adding up to 20 = 20

So his other four starts would add up to around 620 mins which is impossible even if they all went to extra time! Tony does appear somewhat biased despite referring once to a criticism (or two) of Keane.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:05 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Interesting reading that, and I think it confirms the suspicions of a lot of us. Some suggested, in the wake of our dismantling of Newcastle, that it might come back to haunt us just a little by giving Rafa a false belief in some of the team that day. Given that we fielded a virtually identical team away to Stoke in our next league match after the Newcastle game, I think there's something to that. Kuyt looked quite effective as a lone striker at St. James's, with Gerrard buzzing about, Lucas actually getting stuck in AND pulling the strings behind etc. Hopefully Stoke has put paid to that team selection now because it sure looks like a one-off on many different fronts.

Yeah I agree Bob, you can only play as well as the other team let you.......and Newcastle obviously must have let us to a large extent.

by **Owzat** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:07 pm

bigmick wrote:I called the decision to drop Keane for the second time this season after he had scored two goals in the previous game (away to Newcastle) a ridiculous decision. Some found my comments themselves ridiculous, and couldn't accept that either his confidence would suffer as a result of the selection, or that the manager could be criticised for a fairly eccentric line up as we won 5-1. The result was the be all and end all.

It's not so much the result being the 'be all and end all', it's that we didn't suffer adversely for Keane's absence, it's speculation whether he wouldn't have missed as many chances as he did against Preston. Facts are :

- Keane didn't play against Newcastle, we won 5-1
- Keane missed at least three chances against Preston on his recall.

Suggesting Keane missed chances against Preston because he was dropped against Newcastle is unprovable and simply some attempting to explain away issues with Keane. I found accusations that he got that decision wrong when we won 5-1 more than a tad amusing, who knows if we'd started with Torres and Keane against Stoke if we'd have won - possibly not, who knows? I would have started Torres certainly, definitely played Keane at some point if it was 0-0 late on. Would Keane have scored if he had played at all against Stoke? Who knows.

Point is that particular element of debate over his inclusion or exclusion is speculation and pointless at that. You can't prove "what if" s.

At the end of the day it's about results. We won't care who scored when or that Keane missed chances IF we win the league. It is about the team not Keane and his so called fragile "confidence". Those claiming he would be scoring regularly if playing regularly rely heavily on the fact he isn't playing regularly, if he was and Keane still fluffed his lines then they'd have to move onto excuse number *insert number here*. I can't prove he would have still missed had he played the last nine in a row, any more than others can prove he would have scored a hatful had he been a regular.

Evidence is there that he has scored more goals since playing less frequently, still missing chances but having the odd scoring spree. Yet some disregard that little (accepted) fact, that he made a load of consecutive appearances at the start of the season with only four appearances as sub and didn't score many. Since Rafa went "ridiculous" and started leaving him out his form has picked up. I've seen all kinds of straws clutched at including Torres being injured "just as he and Torres were starting to gel"

I suggest Keane has possibly surpassed Crouch as the striker given the most excuses by fans with the most tangible of reasoning on how he'd score more often if he was used "properly", "regularly", "in such and such a formation" etc. All Kuyt gets is a "not good enough to play up front" - funny that

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:11 pm

I think the two Keane threads should be merged now .... the other thread seems to have drifted away from being a rumour and is covering the same ground as this one now. (where's that mod wanabee Judge when you need him

)

by **redbeergoggles** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:00 pm

How many posters on this forum honestly believe ,that pairing Keane with a world class talent like Torres will ever flourish,Lets be truthful here, I would have been disappointed with Keane on a free let alone 20 million ,his misses against Preston reeked of ineptitude, and he was inititially responsible for Alonso's injury when Gerrard gave him a chance on a proverbial plate ,and he cut it back into a crammed penalty box.
His constant harping about his form not bothering him is slightly distasteful ,because its worrying the hell out of the fans that travel to places like Deepdale .
Keane's goals against Bolton smacked of the chances Owen used to convert on a regular basis ,but unlike Owen, Keane is playing in a side that provides ample amount of service ,and should be in double figures now with the opportunities he's been presented with.

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