Liverpool FC Forum

by **andy_g** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:12 am

mick, what you're talking about bears a striking resemblance to two of thatcher's inspired brainwaves - the criminal justice act and the public order act. the two were brought in to deal specifically with the 'problem' of the new age travellers and the growing rave movement in the wake of public hysteria about them. luckily for thatcher though she could also invoke them whenever a group of a few people got together to do or say things she wasn't all that keen on. creating laws that deal with the way people gather socially will be abused and not just used against the currently perceived 'baddies'. remember the plans to ban kids wearing their hoods up? blatantly ridiculous and completely unworkable.

something obviously needs to be done about violent, irresponsible and gun wielding kids but i don't think its as simple as the police going out and banging heads. deeper and more difficult changes in society and the way these kids are brought up are probably the only lasting and meaningful solution, but also the most difficult and the longer to take effect.

as far as human rights go the sooner you remove them from certain sectors or members of society the sooner we run into deeper ethical problems. if a growing violent tendency in kids sees that they are likely to get pretty much removed from humane society then they are not really going to give much of a sh!t anymore. punishment for people such as the young idiot who shot rhys needs to be harsh but it needs to be effective. returning to barbaric ways isn't going to have any longer lasting effect apart from the immediate satisfaction of those baying for more blood.

we need to remember that the majority of people involved in this kind of life aren't inherently bad people, just very, very misguided and completely lacking any kind of moral or ethical perspective.

by **ConnO'var** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:21 am

andy_g wrote:we need to remember that the majority of people involved in this kind of life aren't inherently bad people, just very, very misguided and completely lacking any kind of moral or ethical perspective.

Andy, I've read your points of view whenever these sort of discussions surface and generally I'm in the same camp as yourself, as far as opinions on these matters go.

However, I can't say I agree with this bit of your post.

In my opinion, people who lack moral or ethical perspective ARE "bad people", mate...... clinical and forensic psychologists have another term for them..... psychopaths or sociopaths... and these are dangerous.

Back to topic, I've always believed in the validity/appropriateness of the jury system. My fundamental disagreement comes after the trial, when judgement is made.

I'm a strong believer in the concept of "an eye for an eye". Let the punishment be commensurate with the nature of the crime. What could be fairer than that?

by **footballfreak** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:27 am

i too agree.

by **andy_g** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:45 am

fair enough, conn, i take your point mate. i could probably define my terms a bit better but we'd only end up in that mess of subjectivity that causes so many problems on here

i personally think there is a gap between lacking in moral and ethical guidelines and being a full blown psycho- or sociopath. as with lots of things its all a question of degrees.

by **ConnO'var** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:48 pm

Cheers mate...... and I agree.... the degree of said apparent lack of morals or ethics does determine the extent of psycho/sociopathic-"ness"

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:52 pm

LegBarnes wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Slightly off topic on the Rhys Jones case but its that that has me thinking...

I was listening to it all day the other day and it had me so emotional at some points I was struggling to keep my mind on my job. It had me so wound up I felt like kicking the out of every little bastard that dressed like him or any other little scally I saw.

Then I was asking myself do these people deserve to have human rights?

What would be wrong with medevil punishment and torture for people like this?

Surely these scumbags don't deserve human rights anymore after this sort of thing...

If they were punished slowly and made to die a painful horrible death consisting of torture then surely thats more likely put these horrible rats off being the way they are as apose to "going down" which seems to be what most of them aspire to anyway.

I really hope the biggest nastiest black fellas with the biggest knobs you've ever seen get there hands on that little rat and make his life hell. It will be a travesty if that doesn't happen to him!!!

Am that off that didn't make sense, anyway i was trying to get people to discuss what the punishment should be and do they think these fools deserve any human rights?

Yes they do but its understandable why so many people are angry.

When will people learn that Violence is a vicious cycle more it is around more of it will happen.

My mother is a social worker and she see's this happening day after day after day.

I am not saying to go as far to reward this screwed up little upstarts but really hurting them won't change them.

I feel this people should have to be taken into the town center and have people throw rotten fruit at them and show them there actions will only cause them humiliation.

To live in shame is far worse then to die with pride and anger.

When I was a kid, I had respect for other peoples property and was taught that if I didn't, quite simply I'd get a wack. Now, I don't know about any of you but when I was a kid I used to get a good wack occassionally and it taught me right from wrong.

It was a fear of getting a hurt by my dad which stopped me doing certain things untill such a time I was old enough to make my mind up.

I personally don't think these little shits fear anything or anyone because of how they've been brought up. They've never been taught respect or to have decent morales and I personally think its down to a lack of discipline and to much political correctness.

by **bigmick** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 9:55 pm

Andy and Conn make good points, and the reality is of course that a solution such as mine is probably 50 years away from coming to pass. I do think though that we run the risk of over analysing problems sometimes.

Yes I'm fully prepared to accept that the fact that these lads are brought up in down trodden circumstances, often from broken homes and with little or no hope in life has a direct impact on the direction they are going to take. There is no question that they have been dealt a bum hand, and that they seek position, notoriety, power and "respect" in the same sense that most post people do, only they go about it an entirely different way. Sociologists and acedmics though can knock themselves out all they like pontificating about the why's, the wherefores and the "do you mind if I don'ts", society has a duty to ALSO address the here and now problems.

On these estates, the vast majority of people are hard working, honest folk who wish to go about their normal business peaceably. Their children are potentially anything they desire to be given a break or two, and every parent has the right to dream of the best for their kids regardless of social background or group. When you have this cancerous element though swaggering around the place, infecting everyday life to the extent that people are afraid to go out of their homes, kids heads are turned away from more conventional means of earning money (going to school/work etc) and more onto drugs, gangsterism and the rest, something major has to be done.

Make absolutely no mistake about this, if the gangs were having an effect on kids in Chelsea, Kensington, Hampstead, the boys of Eton, Harrow and the like, something would be done and fecking sharpish. Because though it's the working class kids who are falling by the wayside, or kids from ethnic backgrounds, feck all is done about it. It's the people on the estates who have to put up with the grief, and have to put up with the fact that their kids have a significantly higher chance of going wrong than would otherwise be the case. Liberals jump up and down whenever solutions are muted, but they back the wrong horse I'm absolutely certain of that.

Nobody could pretend that the recent anti terrorism laws which have been rushed through are fair, they aren't. Nobody could pretend that they aren't open to abuse by the authorities, they are and the authorities make full use of the apportunity I should think. The ends though justify the means, and if it prevents a bunch of radicals from blowing up buses and trains, killing hundreds of innocent people then it's a price well worth paying. Yes you're occasionally going to get a horror story of some young bloke who came into the radar and was entirely innocent, but oce again it's unfortunate but entirely a price worth paying. It's the same thing with attacking the gangs head on, yes the "rule of law" as we know it may become more blurry than we have known or would like in an ideal situation, but the law-abiding decent people deserve a solution, and they deserve it now.

Socialologists have pontificated for years and Societies throughout the World have become more lawless not less. My argument is let them muse over the problems, the "roots' of crime, but in the meantime lets clear the streets of bad apples, before more innocent young kids are sucked into the whirlpool of wrongdoing.

A good example of what I'm talking about is when people talk about "prison not working". Well it works in the short term. Nobody to the best of my knowledge has ever molested a kid while they've been inside, or commited a rape (of someone of the opposite sex anyway) while they've been inside either. Acedemics and guardian readers have had the playing field to themselves on law and order for 30 years, it's high time we had some common sense I think.

by **bigmick** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:07 pm

I've just re-read my post, and though I stick by every word it makes me sound like the most radical right winger. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was in the YS as a young fella, and stood on more than a couple of picket lines in Yorkshire during the miners strike in 1984. My Grandad was a card carrying member of the communist party, and I spent many hours with him discussing his beliefs. I count myself at the core as a bit of a Socialist, but believe PC'ness has been a blight on modern politics, and has prevented in many cases good being done to the very people whom politicians would claim to represent.

Somebody mentioned "travellers" earlier on, and this is a classic example of a problem where people jump onto a bandwagon and express views while in many cases, not having the faintest idea what they are talking about. Lando was quite right about them using the law to their advantage, they flagrantly do. I've often seen them described as a downtrodden ethnic minority. Anybody who has had dealings with travellers on a sustained basis (not necessarily when they tarmac your drive) will know that to put it mildly, they are more than a handful. They are a blight on society, and my problem is not that they travel around and trspass (though it would be a problem if it was my field or my village they'd invaded), it's that they commit crime. The reason they get away with it quite simply is because Police forces are unwilling to commit resources to cases where they know full well the people will simply move to a new area, disappear, change their name etc. The result is they are allowed to carry on, infecting decent society as they go.

The solution is that you have dedicated squads of Police who deal exclusively with "travellers", following them around. The same as you have dedicated squads of Police who deal with potential terrorists. It won't happen though, because there is a section of society who claim it is racist. It isn't of course, but that won't stop them stopping it.

by **andy_g** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:43 pm

never had you down as a right winger mick - pedantic at times maybe but never a fascist. i want to respond to a couple of your points but my supper has just turned up. i'll get back to you

by **LegBarnes** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:10 am

bigmick wrote:Andy and Conn make good points, and the reality is of course that a solution such as mine is probably 50 years away from coming to pass. I do think though that we run the risk of over analysing problems sometimes.

Yes I'm fully prepared to accept that the fact that these lads are brought up in down trodden circumstances, often from broken homes and with little or no hope in life has a direct impact on the direction they are going to take. There is no question that they have been dealt a bum hand, and that they seek position, notoriety, power and "respect" in the same sense that most post people do, only they go about it an entirely different way. Sociologists and acedmics though can knock themselves out all they like pontificating about the why's, the wherefores and the "do you mind if I don'ts", society has a duty to ALSO address the here and now problems.

On these estates, the vast majority of people are hard working, honest folk who wish to go about their normal business peaceably. Their children are potentially anything they desire to be given a break or two, and every parent has the right to dream of the best for their kids regardless of social background or group. When you have this cancerous element though swaggering around the place, infecting everyday life to the extent that people are afraid to go out of their homes, kids heads are turned away from more conventional means of earning money (going to school/work etc) and more onto drugs, gangsterism and the rest, something major has to be done.

Make absolutely no mistake about this, if the gangs were having an effect on kids in Chelsea, Kensington, Hampstead, the boys of Eton, Harrow and the like, something would be done and fecking sharpish. Because though it's the working class kids who are falling by the wayside, or kids from ethnic backgrounds, feck all is done about it. It's the people on the estates who have to put up with the grief, and have to put up with the fact that their kids have a significantly higher chance of going wrong than would otherwise be the case. Liberals jump up and down whenever solutions are muted, but they back the wrong horse I'm absolutely certain of that.

Nobody could pretend that the recent anti terrorism laws which have been rushed through are fair, they aren't. Nobody could pretend that they aren't open to abuse by the authorities, they are and the authorities make full use of the apportunity I should think. The ends though justify the means, and if it prevents a bunch of radicals from blowing up buses and trains, killing hundreds of innocent people then it's a price well worth paying. Yes you're occasionally going to get a horror story of some young bloke who came into the radar and was entirely innocent, but oce again it's unfortunate but entirely a price worth paying. It's the same thing with attacking the gangs head on, yes the "rule of law" as we know it may become more blurry than we have known or would like in an ideal situation, but the law-abiding decent people deserve a solution, and they deserve it now.

Socialologists have pontificated for years and Societies throughout the World have become more lawless not less. My argument is let them muse over the problems, the "roots' of crime, but in the meantime lets clear the streets of bad apples, before more innocent young kids are sucked into the whirlpool of wrongdoing.

A good example of what I'm talking about is when people talk about "prison not working". Well it works in the short term. Nobody to the best of my knowledge has ever molested a kid while they've been inside, or commited a rape (of someone of the opposite sex anyway) while they've been inside either. Acedemics and guardian readers have had the playing field to themselves on law and order for 30 years, it's high time we had some common sense I think.

Its all very well locking them all up but who is going to pay for that people moan about tax's as it is , if we was to lock up every one for every thing for ever we have a prision the size of texas.

More needs to be done grass roots of these areas programs to give kids options and shown that there is better was to feel good about the selfs then drugs and violence.

I grew up on a pretty bad area Alot of drugs , alot of violence no where to go or no where to gang out( well apart from the streets).

I used to go ut get drunk , do drugs and stuff when i was young but I never ever wanted to go out hurting people.

Yeah Of course I got in fights didn't we all ?

Thing is I remember more fights I got in when I was young more angry I got about people and more repect I wanted.

Now I could have gone 2 ways in my life I was lucky I had football and It kept me of streets once I hit 15 I started to give up those way and focused on training and travel.

But think of the lads who don't there lifes must feel like dead ends sometimes , they must feel this is all they are going to ever have.

Would drive a 35 year old man nuts let alone a 16-18 year old lad.

I think the biggest problem we have in this country is we treat our kids like idiots maybe if we showed them a little more trust and respect they might not go off killing people for it.

Because end of day you child turns out to be a killer you done something wrong as a parent IMO !

by **LegBarnes** » Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:12 am

Fo Dne wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Slightly off topic on the Rhys Jones case but its that that has me thinking...

I was listening to it all day the other day and it had me so emotional at some points I was struggling to keep my mind on my job. It had me so wound up I felt like kicking the out of every little bastard that dressed like him or any other little scally I saw.

Then I was asking myself do these people deserve to have human rights?

What would be wrong with medevil punishment and torture for people like this?

Surely these scumbags don't deserve human rights anymore after this sort of thing...

If they were punished slowly and made to die a painful horrible death consisting of torture then surely thats more likely put these horrible rats off being the way they are as apose to "going down" which seems to be what most of them aspire to anyway.

I really hope the biggest nastiest black fellas with the biggest knobs you've ever seen get there hands on that little rat and make his life hell. It will be a travesty if that doesn't happen to him!!!

Am that off that didn't make sense, anyway i was trying to get people to discuss what the punishment should be and do they think these fools deserve any human rights?

Yes they do but its understandable why so many people are angry.

When will people learn that Violence is a vicious cycle more it is around more of it will happen.

My mother is a social worker and she see's this happening day after day after day.

I am not saying to go as far to reward this screwed up little upstarts but really hurting them won't change them.

I feel this people should have to be taken into the town center and have people throw rotten fruit at them and show them there actions will only cause them humiliation.

To live in shame is far worse then to die with pride and anger.

When I was a kid, I had respect for other peoples property and was taught that if I didn't, quite simply I'd get a wack. Now, I don't know about any of you but when I was a kid I used to get a good wack occassionally and it taught me right from wrong.

It was a fear of getting a hurt by my dad which stopped me doing certain things untill such a time I was old enough to make my mind up.

I personally don't think these little shits fear anything or anyone because of how they've been brought up. They've never been taught respect or to have decent morales and I personally think its down to a lack of discipline and to much political correctness.

Violence does not solve Violence.

No wonder you are so abusive and agressive on here if your dad twated you every time you did something wrong I feel for you.

by **supersub** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:19 pm

Fo Dne wrote:Pathetic!

Try and have a decent discussion then the do gooders come out.

nothing pathetic in merely pointing out how ignorant you are.

ex thug racist bigot police officer allegedly

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:43 pm

I actually agree with Stu on the way kids are parented now being a major factor.
The lads in these gangs will have been spoiled rotten by there family and will have not been disciplined by there parents properly when they have done other things.
This stops them learning respect and turns them into people who fear nothing.
Its something that has changed drastically from when i was brought up and i am only 29.
Me mum brought me and me two brothers up on her own but taught us to respect elders and all that.
There was still some obvious little b'stards round ours but only one or two.
Now its most kids that are like that, imagine being a teacher in a secondary school and having to deal with these kids everyday with no way of disciplining them.
Must be one of the most frustrating jobs you can have.
If i kid does something now to an adults property if the person knocks round to inform there parents nine times out of ten nowadays they just get abuse from the parents as well.
It wasnt like that even 15 years ago when i was growing up - me mum would of battered us and made us apologise.

by **supersub** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:21 pm

I am in no doubt that the main contributing factor to the increase in scumbags and their behaviour, is the poor parenting skills or to be precise the lack of any parenting whatsoever.

My initial comment was aimed at the use of "the big Black Man" to dish out punishment being a ridiculously crass statement.

by **Roger Red Hat** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:32 pm

Fo Dne wrote:What would be wrong with medevil punishment and torture for people like this?

i feel it would be abused in the wrong hands though. Good idea but it goes back to the capital punishment issue - cant always be sure they've got the right person can they.

as for the rest of your post, give ya head a shake.

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