Liverpool FC Forum

[Big Niall]

Parents raise the kids. Most trouble kids from from poor areas and broken homes. When kids are caught smashing windows, if you stopped the parents welfare, they'd quickly learn to raise their children to respect others.

I hate the "blame government" attitude people have when the child that they raise turns out to respect nothing. In the 1950s children probably dropped out of school at 12 -15 to get a job, so it is not about formal education.

A parents job is to raise their children, discipline them, know where they are. A child will always push the boundaries and try to get as much freedom as they can.

[Lando_Griffin]

I've just re-read my post, and though I stick by every word it makes me sound like the most radical right winger. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was in the YS as a young fella, and stood on more than a couple of picket lines in Yorkshire during the miners strike in 1984. My Grandad was a card carrying member of the communist party, and I spent many hours with him discussing his beliefs. I count myself at the core as a bit of a Socialist, but believe PC'ness has been a blight on modern politics, and has prevented in many cases good being done to the very people whom politicians would claim to represent.

Somebody mentioned "travellers" earlier on, and this is a classic example of a problem where people jump onto a bandwagon and express views while in many cases, not having the faintest idea what they are talking about. Lando was quite right about them using the law to their advantage, they flagrantly do. I've often seen them described as a downtrodden ethnic minority. Anybody who has had dealings with travellers on a sustained basis (not necessarily when they tarmac your drive) will know that to put it mildly, they are more than a handful. They are a blight on society, and my problem is not that they travel around and trspass (though it would be a problem if it was my field or my village they'd invaded), it's that they commit crime. The reason they get away with it quite simply is because Police forces are unwilling to commit resources to cases where they know full well the people will simply move to a new area, disappear, change their name etc. The result is they are allowed to carry on, infecting decent society as they go.

The solution is that you have dedicated squads of Police who deal exclusively with "travellers", following them around. The same as you have dedicated squads of Police who deal with potential terrorists. It won't happen though, because there is a section of society who claim it is racist. It isn't of course, but that won't stop them stopping it.

It's not that the Police are unwilling to, it's just that how do you find the truth when you go to a camp of 100 gypsies, and you are treated to a wall of silence?

"It was the gypo's who stole my..." - an all too often uttered phrase.

Yes it WAS the gypos. I know it, you know it, and the Police know it.

But which one?

That's the problem. The only way you can currently deal with it is if the victim of the crime says "It was HIM/HER", as opposed to blaming a collective.

Again - until the Government says "Enough is enough" (like this bunch of c*nts ever will...) and actually passes a law which says that travellers will be subject to stringent Police monitoring, must register with an official body (not the gypsies Council, or whatever it's called) individually, and will have their vans checked daily, they will continue to get away with virtually everything.

That's the problem IMO.

[Lando_Griffin]

Andy and Conn make good points, and the reality is of course that a solution such as mine is probably 50 years away from coming to pass. I do think though that we run the risk of over analysing problems sometimes.

Yes I'm fully prepared to accept that the fact that these lads are brought up in down trodden circumstances, often from broken homes and with little or no hope in life has a direct impact on the direction they are going to take. There is no question that they have been dealt a bum hand, and that they seek position, notoriety, power and "respect" in the same sense that most post people do, only they go about it an entirely different way. Sociologists and acedmics though can knock themselves out all they like pontificating about the why's, the wherefores and the "do you mind if I don'ts", society has a duty to ALSO address the here and now problems.

On these estates, the vast majority of people are hard working, honest folk who wish to go about their normal business peaceably. Their children are potentially anything they desire to be given a break or two, and every parent has the right to dream of the best for their kids regardless of social background or group. When you have this cancerous element though swaggering around the place, infecting everyday life to the extent that people are afraid to go out of their homes, kids heads are turned away from more conventional means of earning money (going to school/work etc) and more onto drugs, gangsterism and the rest, something major has to be done.

Make absolutely no mistake about this, if the gangs were having an effect on kids in Chelsea, Kensington, Hampstead, the boys of Eton, Harrow and the like, something would be done and fecking sharpish. Because though it's the working class kids who are falling by the wayside, or kids from ethnic backgrounds, feck all is done about it. It's the people on the estates who have to put up with the grief, and have to put up with the fact that their kids have a significantly higher chance of going wrong than would otherwise be the case. Liberals jump up and down whenever solutions are muted, but they back the wrong horse I'm absolutely certain of that.

Nobody could pretend that the recent anti terrorism laws which have been rushed through are fair, they aren't. Nobody could pretend that they aren't open to abuse by the authorities, they are and the authorities make full use of the apportunity I should think. The ends though justify the means, and if it prevents a bunch of radicals from blowing up buses and trains, killing hundreds of innocent people then it's a price well worth paying. Yes you're occasionally going to get a horror story of some young bloke who came into the radar and was entirely innocent, but oce again it's unfortunate but entirely a price worth paying. It's the same thing with attacking the gangs head on, yes the "rule of law" as we know it may become more blurry than we have known or would like in an ideal situation, but the law-abiding decent people deserve a solution, and they deserve it now.

Socialologists have pontificated for years and Societies throughout the World have become more lawless not less. My argument is let them muse over the problems, the "roots' of crime, but in the meantime lets clear the streets of bad apples, before more innocent young kids are sucked into the whirlpool of wrongdoing.

A good example of what I'm talking about is when people talk about "prison not working". Well it works in the short term. Nobody to the best of my knowledge has ever molested a kid while they've been inside, or commited a rape (of someone of the opposite sex anyway) while they've been inside either. Acedemics and guardian readers have had the playing field to themselves on law and order for 30 years, it's high time we had some common sense I think.

Its all very well locking them all up but who is going to pay for that people moan about tax's as it is , if we was to lock up every one for every thing for ever we have a prision the size of texas.

More needs to be done grass roots of these areas programs to give kids options and shown that there is better was to feel good about the selfs then drugs and violence.

I grew up on a pretty bad area Alot of drugs , alot of violence no where to go or no where to gang out( well apart from the streets).

I used to go ut get drunk , do drugs and stuff when i was young but I never ever wanted to go out hurting people.

Yeah Of course I got in fights didn't we all ?

Thing is I remember more fights I got in when I was young more angry I got about people and more repect I wanted.

Now I could have gone 2 ways in my life I was lucky I had football and It kept me of streets once I hit 15 I started to give up those way and focused on training and travel.

But think of the lads who don't there lifes must feel like dead ends sometimes , they must feel this is all they are going to ever have.

Would drive a 35 year old man nuts let alone a 16-18 year old lad.

I think the biggest problem we have in this country is we treat our kids like idiots maybe if we showed them a little more trust and respect they might not go off killing people for it.

Because end of day you child turns out to be a killer you done something wrong as a parent IMO !

1. Kids reflect their upbringing 999 times out of 1000. If your parents are good folks, chances are you will be one, too.

2. The other 1 in 1000 are just naturally unbalanced, and the bestest, most wonderfullest, most flowery, namby-pamby lullaby of an upbringing will still not prevent these people going out with the sole intention of killing someone. It's unavoidable. They are just natural anomalies.

3. "I never ever wanted to go out hurting people.

Yeah Of course I got in fights didn't we all ?"

This is because you're not one of the 1 in 1000. Simple as that. Some people fight for the respect/thrill of a scrap. Others do it just to hurt someone.

You are never going to stop scumbags from being scumbags, no matter how much money this fairyfied Government wants to throw at them. Prison "doesn't work." Adventure Holidays "don't work", Foster care "doesn't work."

In certain cases, you're right, they don't. In some they do.

There comes a time in everyone's life when you have to make a decision. A monumental decision that no-one else can make for you. A decision that defines who and what you are, and what you are capable of.

Like pulling a trigger.

Like using a knife.

Like smashing someone's head into the pavement.

Like snorting drugs.

Like taking that first drag on a fag...

It all starts somewhere. Life is a series of personal decisions, save for circumstances beyond our control. Nothing more. Nothing less.

You choose the direction of your own life.

That 1 out of 1000 are beyond help from the day they are born.

The other 999, if brought up correctly, and kept away from that 1, tend to do alright for themselves.

[taff]

mick, what you're talking about bears a striking resemblance to two of thatcher's inspired brainwaves - the criminal justice act and the public order act. the two were brought in to deal specifically with the 'problem' of the new age travellers and the growing rave movement in the wake of public hysteria about them. luckily for thatcher though she could also invoke them whenever a group of a few people got together to do or say things she wasn't all that keen on. creating laws that deal with the way people gather socially will be abused and not just used against the currently perceived 'baddies'. remember the plans to ban kids wearing their hoods up? blatantly ridiculous and completely unworkable.

something obviously needs to be done about violent, irresponsible and gun wielding kids but i don't think its as simple as the police going out and banging heads. deeper and more difficult changes in society and the way these kids are brought up are probably the only lasting and meaningful solution, but also the most difficult and the longer to take effect.

as far as human rights go the sooner you remove them from certain sectors or members of society the sooner we run into deeper ethical problems. if a growing violent tendency in kids sees that they are likely to get pretty much removed from humane society then they are not really going to give much of a sh!t anymore. punishment for people such as the young idiot who shot rhys needs to be harsh but it needs to be effective. returning to barbaric ways isn't going to have any longer lasting effect apart from the immediate satisfaction of those baying for more blood.

we need to remember that the majority of people involved in this kind of life aren't inherently bad people, just very, very misguided and completely lacking any kind of moral or ethical perspective.

I agree although we are probably do gooders.  Maybe Mick is right and any large groups should be sorted out like the anti capitalist ones or any anti war protestors or in fact beat up workers on strike as they are a organised gang out to disrupt the law. 

The streets are a hazard and I live in a city centre neighbourhood where kids do play in the street blissfully unaware of the numerous dangers that lurk at every corner.

Or maybe lets have a reasoned debate without knee jerk reactions.  If you have a problem with that we can do it in any of the pubs where I live so you can see how this so called no go zones arent all that.

The police have huge responsibility alongside the community but the problem with this democracy thing is freedom.  We can be totally safe without freedom.

Regarding the shooting incident in particular.  That area has been plagued by those gangsters for a while and this was an inevitable event, not specific to Liverpool but it would have happened in fact it has happened before in other cities.  We have to remember that the communities werent exactly outgoing with their evidence IMO due to fear and these kids have bragged about their exploits on you tube etc.  Why didnt the police work with community leaders to stop this.  Hard core arresting can work if consistently followed up over a long sustained period but the police did not wish to follow this route but neither have they protected the community at large.

I wouldnt tarnish all kids with the same brush as we can easily create a generation that are totally disillusioned and a lot of this is self fullfilling prophecy.  That shooter deserves to rot inside but only when we have given opportunities to kids and hope should we then with the remaining bad apples go to town with our use of force.

remember that the UK is still a safe country, now cue everybodys horror stories

[Judge]

Andy and Conn make good points, and the reality is of course that a solution such as mine is probably 50 years away from coming to pass. I do think though that we run the risk of over analysing problems sometimes.

Yes I'm fully prepared to accept that the fact that these lads are brought up in down trodden circumstances, often from broken homes and with little or no hope in life has a direct impact on the direction they are going to take. There is no question that they have been dealt a bum hand, and that they seek position, notoriety, power and "respect" in the same sense that most post people do, only they go about it an entirely different way. Sociologists and acedmics though can knock themselves out all they like pontificating about the why's, the wherefores and the "do you mind if I don'ts", society has a duty to ALSO address the here and now problems.

On these estates, the vast majority of people are hard working, honest folk who wish to go about their normal business peaceably. Their children are potentially anything they desire to be given a break or two, and every parent has the right to dream of the best for their kids regardless of social background or group. When you have this cancerous element though swaggering around the place, infecting everyday life to the extent that people are afraid to go out of their homes, kids heads are turned away from more conventional means of earning money (going to school/work etc) and more onto drugs, gangsterism and the rest, something major has to be done.

Make absolutely no mistake about this, if the gangs were having an effect on kids in Chelsea, Kensington, Hampstead, the boys of Eton, Harrow and the like, something would be done and fecking sharpish. Because though it's the working class kids who are falling by the wayside, or kids from ethnic backgrounds, feck all is done about it. It's the people on the estates who have to put up with the grief, and have to put up with the fact that their kids have a significantly higher chance of going wrong than would otherwise be the case. Liberals jump up and down whenever solutions are muted, but they back the wrong horse I'm absolutely certain of that.

Nobody could pretend that the recent anti terrorism laws which have been rushed through are fair, they aren't. Nobody could pretend that they aren't open to abuse by the authorities, they are and the authorities make full use of the apportunity I should think. The ends though justify the means, and if it prevents a bunch of radicals from blowing up buses and trains, killing hundreds of innocent people then it's a price well worth paying. Yes you're occasionally going to get a horror story of some young bloke who came into the radar and was entirely innocent, but oce again it's unfortunate but entirely a price worth paying. It's the same thing with attacking the gangs head on, yes the "rule of law" as we know it may become more blurry than we have known or would like in an ideal situation, but the law-abiding decent people deserve a solution, and they deserve it now.

Socialologists have pontificated for years and Societies throughout the World have become more lawless not less. My argument is let them muse over the problems, the "roots' of crime, but in the meantime lets clear the streets of bad apples, before more innocent young kids are sucked into the whirlpool of wrongdoing.

A good example of what I'm talking about is when people talk about "prison not working". Well it works in the short term. Nobody to the best of my knowledge has ever molested a kid while they've been inside, or commited a rape (of someone of the opposite sex anyway) while they've been inside either. Acedemics and guardian readers have had the playing field to themselves on law and order for 30 years, it's high time we had some common sense I think.

Its all very well locking them all up but who is going to pay for that people moan about tax's as it is , if we was to lock up every one for every thing for ever we have a prision the size of texas.

More needs to be done grass roots of these areas programs to give kids options and shown that there is better was to feel good about the selfs then drugs and violence.

I grew up on a pretty bad area Alot of drugs , alot of violence no where to go or no where to gang out( well apart from the streets).

I used to go ut get drunk , do drugs and stuff when i was young but I never ever wanted to go out hurting people.

Yeah Of course I got in fights didn't we all ?

Thing is I remember more fights I got in when I was young more angry I got about people and more repect I wanted.

Now I could have gone 2 ways in my life I was lucky I had football and It kept me of streets once I hit 15 I started to give up those way and focused on training and travel.

But think of the lads who don't there lifes must feel like dead ends sometimes , they must feel this is all they are going to ever have.

Would drive a 35 year old man nuts let alone a 16-18 year old lad.

I think the biggest problem we have in this country is we treat our kids like idiots maybe if we showed them a little more trust and respect they might not go off killing people for it.

Because end of day you child turns out to be a killer you done something wrong as a parent IMO !

1. Kids reflect their upbringing 999 times out of 1000. If your parents are good folks, chances are you will be one, too.

half of these so called good upbringings does not mean you will end up good lando

half the do-gooders kids grow up to be in high places, due to access to excellent education, however, these half end up being the most depraved
eg: going to lap bars and massage parlours to pay for sordid sex, going to find rent boys to cure their cravings etc etc.
most of them are our politicians.

it does not matter where you come from, but i suppose it helps, however, i think your genetics, rather than total upbringing determine what you will do in the future

imo

[Ciggy]

1. Kids reflect their upbringing 999 times out of 1000. If your parents are good folks, chances are you will be one, too.

Not 100% true Paul, I am having a bit of a mare with aaron, he gets everything he is spolit rotten, but the influence of his peers at school are twisting his brain.

And this peer pressure he is getting these kids, their parents all have good jobs, nice cars, live in nice houses. And not Jeremy Kyle dosser types.

Its just society today kids are not kids for long any more.

I told him last week we are going to live on a farm to get away from these bad influences.

And its not just the lads the grirls are even worst.

[Judge]

1. Kids reflect their upbringing 999 times out of 1000. If your parents are good folks, chances are you will be one, too.

Not 100% true Paul, I am having a bit of a mare with aaron, he gets everything he is spolit rotten, but the influence of his peers at school are twisting his brain.

And this peer pressure he is getting these kids, their parents all have good jobs, nice cars, live in nice houses. And not Jeremy Kyle dosser types.

Its just society today kids are not kids for long any more.

I told him last week we are going to live on a farm to get away from these bad influences.

And its not just the lads the grirls are even worst.

jeremy kyle dosser types, wtf?      

[Fo Dne]

What would be wrong with medevil punishment and torture for people like this?

i feel it would be abused in the wrong hands though. Good idea but it goes back to the capital punishment issue - cant always be sure they've got the right person can they.

as for the rest of your post, give ya head a shake.

Lets be honest, if the punishment was a really slow, horrible painful death, getting you're nutz cut off, and just about anything else you can think of then surely that will strike fear into these scum bags more so than them going to jail for a few years.

I'm not saying it will obviously cure it, it won't. But I think it would help.

There are many problems that need dealing with.

Education is obviously something thats needed.

But with that you also need discipline. Children need a wack every now and then. A while ago I posted about a little scroat throwing a bottle across the road infront of me which nearly caused an accident or injury and him telling me to off, had that been me as a child, I would have recieved a good hiding and been forced to apologise and had it explained how stupid It was. This kid got nothing from his "parents".

The punishments for such crimes aswell aren't strong enough.

For me, they are the three main issues.

[Judge]

i think we should slap the coppers for not enforcing the law enough on those scrotie kids.

i think we should slap cardinal red, just coz he's a copper and an easy target

[LegBarnes]

What would be wrong with medevil punishment and torture for people like this?

i feel it would be abused in the wrong hands though. Good idea but it goes back to the capital punishment issue - cant always be sure they've got the right person can they.

as for the rest of your post, give ya head a shake.

Lets be honest, if the punishment was a really slow, horrible painful death, getting you're nutz cut off, and just about anything else you can think of then surely that will strike fear into these scum bags more so than them going to jail for a few years.

I'm not saying it will obviously cure it, it won't. But I think it would help.

There are many problems that need dealing with.

Education is obviously something thats needed.

But with that you also need discipline. Children need a wack every now and then. A while ago I posted about a little scroat throwing a bottle across the road infront of me which nearly caused an accident or injury and him telling me to off, had that been me as a child, I would have recieved a good hiding and been forced to apologise and had it explained how stupid It was. This kid got nothing from his "parents".

The punishments for such crimes aswell aren't strong enough.

For me, they are the three main issues.

Does it Iraq ? no people still steal things even tho if they do they get there hands cut off.

Punishment does not solve crime , well not for all any ways help those who need help before they turn to crime does help.

Stu you seem to be very sharpe in your views not a moden day man I see , life isn't about blacks and whites but the shades inbetween.

I go back to my earlyer point that I feel kids grow up way to fast nowa days and have to deal with things there brains can't handle also they don't get given respect they have to earn it ?

No wonder we see so many of them turning to drugs or even selling drugs to get this peer respect.

Or sometimes ever worse things like assult or even murder.

Behind them you will find 9/10 there is a nasty adult pulling the strings cohursing these kids into making the wrong choice.

[Leonmc0708]

Surely these scumbags don't deserve human rights

Like me ?

Why dont you lock them up ?

[Emerald Red]

Lets be honest, if the punishment was a really slow, horrible painful death, getting you're nutz cut off, and just about anything else you can think of then surely that will strike fear into these scum bags more so than them going to jail for a few years.

So what's your stance on the so called barbaric punishments in the middle-east where people are beheaded, shot, stoned, and hung in public? It's shocking, no? Surely, you are not advocating such behavior in our so called civilized society that we live in?

[Number 9]

Stu will be bringing back the Iron Maiden soon!

Getting your nuts and everything else that you can think of cut off?
Right..what sort of person would apply for the job of doing that to a stranger?
What do you do?Well i hack people to bits,9-5 then go home and have my tea and watch the footy.

There is no place for such evil in society.Kids grow up hearing that people get tortured to death,it becomes embedded in their head that this is acceptable behaviour.Pretty soon people would be hacking eachother to bits as a punishment over fuc'k all.
The only way to go is to make life mean life for murder rape,child abuse etc. and to make jails a place were waking up every day you wish it was your last.Bare cells,minimal food and no luxuries.FFS who'd be afraid of going to jail now days..half the scum in there are better off than they are on the outside!

[JoeTerp]

the point of jail is to rehabilitate the person to come back to society and contribute.  A lot of these people need to seek counseling and also educate themselves/gain skills that could be useful to society.  People would be less desperate to gang bang if they had other less risky skills that allowed them to escape the ghetto.

[Lando_Griffin]

Andy and Conn make good points, and the reality is of course that a solution such as mine is probably 50 years away from coming to pass. I do think though that we run the risk of over analysing problems sometimes.

Yes I'm fully prepared to accept that the fact that these lads are brought up in down trodden circumstances, often from broken homes and with little or no hope in life has a direct impact on the direction they are going to take. There is no question that they have been dealt a bum hand, and that they seek position, notoriety, power and "respect" in the same sense that most post people do, only they go about it an entirely different way. Sociologists and acedmics though can knock themselves out all they like pontificating about the why's, the wherefores and the "do you mind if I don'ts", society has a duty to ALSO address the here and now problems.

On these estates, the vast majority of people are hard working, honest folk who wish to go about their normal business peaceably. Their children are potentially anything they desire to be given a break or two, and every parent has the right to dream of the best for their kids regardless of social background or group. When you have this cancerous element though swaggering around the place, infecting everyday life to the extent that people are afraid to go out of their homes, kids heads are turned away from more conventional means of earning money (going to school/work etc) and more onto drugs, gangsterism and the rest, something major has to be done.

Make absolutely no mistake about this, if the gangs were having an effect on kids in Chelsea, Kensington, Hampstead, the boys of Eton, Harrow and the like, something would be done and fecking sharpish. Because though it's the working class kids who are falling by the wayside, or kids from ethnic backgrounds, feck all is done about it. It's the people on the estates who have to put up with the grief, and have to put up with the fact that their kids have a significantly higher chance of going wrong than would otherwise be the case. Liberals jump up and down whenever solutions are muted, but they back the wrong horse I'm absolutely certain of that.

Nobody could pretend that the recent anti terrorism laws which have been rushed through are fair, they aren't. Nobody could pretend that they aren't open to abuse by the authorities, they are and the authorities make full use of the apportunity I should think. The ends though justify the means, and if it prevents a bunch of radicals from blowing up buses and trains, killing hundreds of innocent people then it's a price well worth paying. Yes you're occasionally going to get a horror story of some young bloke who came into the radar and was entirely innocent, but oce again it's unfortunate but entirely a price worth paying. It's the same thing with attacking the gangs head on, yes the "rule of law" as we know it may become more blurry than we have known or would like in an ideal situation, but the law-abiding decent people deserve a solution, and they deserve it now.

Socialologists have pontificated for years and Societies throughout the World have become more lawless not less. My argument is let them muse over the problems, the "roots' of crime, but in the meantime lets clear the streets of bad apples, before more innocent young kids are sucked into the whirlpool of wrongdoing.

A good example of what I'm talking about is when people talk about "prison not working". Well it works in the short term. Nobody to the best of my knowledge has ever molested a kid while they've been inside, or commited a rape (of someone of the opposite sex anyway) while they've been inside either. Acedemics and guardian readers have had the playing field to themselves on law and order for 30 years, it's high time we had some common sense I think.

Its all very well locking them all up but who is going to pay for that people moan about tax's as it is , if we was to lock up every one for every thing for ever we have a prision the size of texas.

More needs to be done grass roots of these areas programs to give kids options and shown that there is better was to feel good about the selfs then drugs and violence.

I grew up on a pretty bad area Alot of drugs , alot of violence no where to go or no where to gang out( well apart from the streets).

I used to go ut get drunk , do drugs and stuff when i was young but I never ever wanted to go out hurting people.

Yeah Of course I got in fights didn't we all ?

Thing is I remember more fights I got in when I was young more angry I got about people and more repect I wanted.

Now I could have gone 2 ways in my life I was lucky I had football and It kept me of streets once I hit 15 I started to give up those way and focused on training and travel.

But think of the lads who don't there lifes must feel like dead ends sometimes , they must feel this is all they are going to ever have.

Would drive a 35 year old man nuts let alone a 16-18 year old lad.

I think the biggest problem we have in this country is we treat our kids like idiots maybe if we showed them a little more trust and respect they might not go off killing people for it.

Because end of day you child turns out to be a killer you done something wrong as a parent IMO !

1. Kids reflect their upbringing 999 times out of 1000. If your parents are good folks, chances are you will be one, too.

half of these so called good upbringings does not mean you will end up good lando

half the do-gooders kids grow up to be in high places, due to access to excellent education, however, these half end up being the most depraved
eg: going to lap bars and massage parlours to pay for sordid sex, going to find rent boys to cure their cravings etc etc.
most of them are our politicians.

it does not matter where you come from, but i suppose it helps, however, i think your genetics, rather than total upbringing determine what you will do in the future

imo

Better that than kicking some old dear in for their next fix.