Liverpool FC Forum

by **Roger Red Hat** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:15 am

I really hate to say this but I hope he leaves us in the summer, for his sake. Rafa is ruining him.

by **tonyeh** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:03 am

Fo Dne wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:is there a legit reason why he is always taken off? im very annoyed by that. there were times when Owen or Fowler were playing poorly but ended up scoring in the end. their managers then didnt take them off. the persistence paid off. wtf is with this constant subbing!

Seems like Benitez is trying to make a out of Keane at the minute. He's certainly showing his man management ability in its complete capacity.

More proof if needed that he won't win us the league.

It's not only with Keane, although the sub last was truly appaling. But he keeps subbing Riera too, no matter how he plays and what's worse, he subs him for Babel who isn't even suited for the bloody role!

On the other hand, he insists with Kuyt, even when he's playing dreadfully.

Sure, all the team played badly last night, with the exception of Reina, Carragher and Sami (even Dossena was OK), but those subs were simply robotic and mind numbingly simplistic, with no weight of logic behind them. I'd understand if he'd brought on Babel for Keane, or Kuyt who wasn't doing anything either except being wasteful. But N'Gog for Keane and Babel (who had the best shot of the game) for Riera was just bad managment...it's as simple as that.

I've given up on Benitez. I just do not know what he's trying to do with the team. Last week Eamonn Dunphy said that Dirk Kuyt embodies Benitez's approach to the game, all huff'n'puff but no real talent. He's a grafter with no game intelligence. It's why he plays Kuyt week in week out, it's the type of player he loves.

I think he's has something there TBH.

by **Bam** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:45 am

Well I'm going to side with Benitez here, the team have been given a gift horse twice now. And havent capitalised on either occassions, is that Rafa's fault though ? You can lead a horse to water and all that, but the players have to hold their hands up as much as Benitez. For me Rafa has shed loads of work at Melwood to do, as far as breaking teams down go.

Just because we didnt get the result last night everybody on here turns to Rafa and his substitutions made. First off I agree with some posters who mentioned that Kuyt never got the same treatment as Keane is getting. Kuyt was dreadful for the best part of 18 months upfront, Rafa never subbed him and this annoyed the f.uck out of me. This time around though Rafa is doing the right thing, subbing a player who isnt doing well know matter how much quality he has. This time around I'm happy to see Keane come off, I sympathise with hime being taken off after he's scored a goal or two. They are odd decisions sometimes by Rafa and this still leaves me scratching my head. But overall Keane hasnt made an impression and he has be given playing the time if you compare Babel, Yossi's and Aurelio's playing time. READ JBG'S POST ABOUT KEANE AND THIS HAS SUMMED HIM UP SO FAR AND I THINK JBG MAY BE ONTO SOMETHING THERE. Even though I was very happy in seeing us sign Keane, I thought he'd be that creative player we've needed. Looking at it now I think I've called it wrong possibly, although time will truly tell.

Riera should of been subbed end of, it got to the stage in the game where it looked as though fatigue had set in. He could barely go past his man and when he did with his step-overs he ran the ball out of play. He wasnt doing much TBH and Rafa was right to bring him off, his performance's have faded somewhat.

Bringing Babel on is like replacing a tired square peg, from a square hole and replacing it with a round peg. Again Rafa has to take the blame somewhat here, he brought Babel and its largely his problem he hasnt got adequate cover for Riera. Even still a change or two was needed because that overall display from the lads was FLAT !

Before Rafa's "questionable" subs came along we looked flat, no ideas whatsoever that has hardly been mentioned. People seem to be more worried about the subs he made, but the real problem occured in the 60 minutes that lead upto his subs. The fact our team couldnt break West Ham down is a MUCH bigger worry than the subs made ! Simple as, end of.

Rafa WORK ON IT FFS !!!

We have Pelligrino as a defensive coach, I think we now need to bring in an attacking coach !

by **Redman in wales** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:53 am

JBG wrote:Sitting on the bench is nothing new for Robbie Keane, he had loads of bench time for Leeds and Inter.

Remember as well that he went through long periods at Spurs, both under Jol and Ramos, of being third choice behind Berbatov and Defoe, but won back his place and was the main reason for Defoe leaving.

I can't remember exactly when it was but I recollect that it may have been two seasons ago that Robbie didn't start much for Spurs before Xmas before winning back his place and scoring loads of goals after Xmas.

While I think Robbie is a good player and has goals in him yet for Liverpool ultimately I think he was the wrong choice for our £20million and if it wasn't for our lack of funds I think Benitez would go out and buy another top class forward. I don't ever see him clicking with Torres and ultimately I have my doubts whether Torres can play at his best with a partner.

Torres seems to like having the front line all to himself with a very advanced midfielder just behind, like Gerrard last year. Keane is not an "in the hole" forward and never has been so by buying him Benitez has identified the wrong type of player (Benitez specifically said he saw Robbie as a behind the front man type player). I've always followed Robbie's career closely and he has been at his most effective as a box player playing off a big man, with the big man dropping off him and allowing Robbie in on goal. He had an excellent partnership with Quinn for Ireland in his early years and formed a great partnership with Berbatov at Spurs. Even at his time at Leeds he looked his best when he played alongside Viduka. When he has played beside a smaller, fast player, like Defoe at Spurs, the two of them tend to make the same runs.

Torres is not really a target man and is far more mobile than Berbatov or Viduka and I just don't see Robbie gelling. Robbie's best game for us was when he played against West Brom up front largely on his own with Torres on the bench.

My own feeling is that we need either a forward who lies deep or an advanced midfielder who supports Torres. Keane doesn't fit the bill.

as people keep mentioning JBG's post, I thought I'd give it a :bump

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:09 pm

Well i thought it was an absolutely ridiculous substitution taking Robbie off last night for the french kid.
Rafa's fault - no doubt for me.

Keane wasnt performing too well, but if you pay 20 million for a striker in my personal opinion you should try and find solutions to get him in form, alter the system etc.

Dont drag him off for a useless looking kid when its 0-0.

Shocking it was.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:57 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
maypaxvobiscum wrote:is there a legit reason why he is always taken off? im very annoyed by that. there were times when Owen or Fowler were playing poorly but ended up scoring in the end. their managers then didnt take them off. the persistence paid off. wtf is with this constant subbing!

Seems like Benitez is trying to make a out of Keane at the minute. He's certainly showing his man management ability in its complete capacity.

More proof if needed that he won't win us the league.

Take a deep breath.

Think about what you have typed.

Then post it.

NO WAY DOES ANY MANAGER EVER DO STUFF JUST TO PI.SS OFF HIS 2nd BEST STRIKER WHEN HIS BEST ONE IS ON THE SIDELINES FOR 2 WEEKS.

by **Leonmc0708** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:59 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:Well i thought it was an absolutely ridiculous substitution taking Robbie off last night for the french kid.
Rafa's fault - no doubt for me.

Keane wasnt performing too well, but if you pay 20 million for a striker in my personal opinion you should try and find solutions to get him in form, alter the system etc.

Dont drag him off for a useless looking kid when its 0-0.

Shocking it was.

KEane was inept for 70 minutes.

HE was not performing.

If it was Kuyt who played so poorly would people be moaning at Rafa ? No - they would encourage him to be taken off.

Robbie KEane seems to be the "in thing" to defend in order to persecute Rafa.

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:06 pm

In reply to that Leon if the substitution was for Ngog then i wouldnt be happy with Kuyt coming off either.

I agree that Keane was struggling and is in general, but its Rafa's job to get more out of him, find a solution to the problem especially with Torres out.
I am not persecuting him but imo he was totally incorrect bringing off Robbie last night for an unproven kid.
He didnt do that with Kuyt or Crouch when they struggled so seems to have changed tack - not sure why, because as you already stated Robbie is our second best striker.
So do all you can to get him happy and playing well, not sub him for someone who is clearly not ready yet.

by **tonyeh** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:12 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:Well i thought it was an absolutely ridiculous substitution taking Robbie off last night for the french kid.
Rafa's fault - no doubt for me.

Keane wasnt performing too well, but if you pay 20 million for a striker in my personal opinion you should try and find solutions to get him in form, alter the system etc.

Dont drag him off for a useless looking kid when its 0-0.

Shocking it was.

Agreed. Choosing to sub Keane for a player with an extremely small amount of playing time is a worry from a managerial point of view.

This customary 60 min subbing of Keane SHOULD have EVERYONE up in arms too. It's the very definition of folly.

Sure, he certainly wasn't playing well and hasn't been, but what possible use did it serve? Surely the clear choice was Babel for Keane / Kuyt?

Also, and another take on Rafa's folly, is AGAIN subbing Riera for Babel. What the hell is that all about? Ryan Babel is not a winger. Someone said that Rafa should make Babel sit down and watch his performance...but I think someone should make Rafa sit down and watch his own stupid, pigheaded and WRONG decisions, made time and time again. This standard Babel / Riera interchange is one of them.

It NEVER has worked, it will NEVER work.

I'm beginning to think that Rafa's a bit of a spiteful manager too, in a petty way. We saw it with Crouch and we're seeing it again with Babel, Pennant and Keane too with this 60 minute business. I don't think Rafa liked Peter Crouch on a personal level and it ended up with him not even on the bench and then gone. It was obvious that there was something going on at the club between those two. I think it's obvious that he doesn't like Jermaine Pennant either and I believe that he'll be happy to get rid of Ryan Babel too before long.

It's just not good enough.

I know people are saying that the players have to bare responsibility and that's correct. IMO, managers get fecked out of jobs far too quickly in the modern game and it's ridiculous at times. But, in some decisions, the manager is directly responsible for and it's clear that Rafa's stuborn subbing policy (and it IS policy) is wrong for everyone concerned.

The world and his wife could see that playing Lucas last week was wrong and subbing Keane for N'Gog (and on every 60 mins regardless) is wrong and playing Babel on the left mid in place of Riera is wrong.

Put it like this, if I can see they are bad decisions, why can't Rafa?

Very disapointed with last night, but I have to say I don't think it;s the last time this year we will feel that disapointment.

by **tonyeh** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:15 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:Well i thought it was an absolutely ridiculous substitution taking Robbie off last night for the french kid.
Rafa's fault - no doubt for me.

Keane wasnt performing too well, but if you pay 20 million for a striker in my personal opinion you should try and find solutions to get him in form, alter the system etc.

Dont drag him off for a useless looking kid when its 0-0.

Shocking it was.

KEane was inept for 70 minutes.

HE was not performing.

If it was Kuyt who played so poorly would people be moaning at Rafa ? No - they would encourage him to be taken off.

Robbie KEane seems to be the "in thing" to defend in order to persecute Rafa.

Kuyt was playing poorly (Gerrard, again let a roar at him for fücking away the ball uselessly) and was left on the field.

In fact, Kuyt played badly for nearly 2 years and was left on the field.

by **Bam** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:20 pm

Agreed. Choosing to sub Keane for a player with an extremely small amount of playing time is a worry from a managerial point of view.

No its not, didnt Houllier sub Heggem for Gerrard at the age of 19 ?

The substitution made by Rafa last night shows all was not going well on the field.

The only worrying thing from the managers view point, is that Keane isnt able to adapt his game somewhat and find some form.

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:31 pm

Bam wrote:
Agreed. Choosing to sub Keane for a player with an extremely small amount of playing time is a worry from a managerial point of view.

No its not, didnt Houllier sub Heggem for Gerrard at the age of 19 ?

The substitution made by Rafa last night shows all was not going well on the field.

The only worrying thing from the managers view point, is that Keane isnt able to adapt his game somewhat and find some form.

Ok Bam i have a question,

In what way has Rafa tried to help his new signing through his poor form crisis of confidence etc ?

I know he doesnt have to do this Robbie is just another player, but he could and should be very important at this moment and time with Torres out again for a few weeks.
Surely it would be beneficial to the side to find solutions to getting Keane back playing well ?

by **Rockthekop** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:34 pm

Did anyone notice how Rafa brought up the topic of a new contract?

It would be a huge mistake giving him another contract at this point in time.

The end of the season should be the earliest to review it.

He's caking it cuz he knows he's in the last chance saloon.

My backing for Rafa ends after this season unless we don't win the league title or come very close to it! My patience has ran out.

by **tonyeh** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:47 pm

Bam wrote:
Agreed. Choosing to sub Keane for a player with an extremely small amount of playing time is a worry from a managerial point of view.

No its not, didnt Houllier sub Heggem for Gerrard at the age of 19 ?

The substitution made by Rafa last night shows all was not going well on the field.

The only worrying thing from the managers view point, is that Keane isnt able to adapt his game somewhat and find some form.

I don't think you should be choosing goggle eyes as a good managerial comparison.

by **Effes** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 1:55 pm

I agree Ace - although Keane wasn't having a good game, I'd much rather he stayed on than Ngog coming on.

I think it's premature to say keane cant partner Torres up front - Rafa needs to get coaching!

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