Liverpool FC Forum

by **JC_81** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:40 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
bigmick wrote:Am I alone in becoming a fraction concerned about his actual contribution to games? Now this is not some lame attempt by me to re-visit my extreme reservations about us initially signing him, I've already said I was totally wrong on that score. He is a far better player than I remember from his City days, and has proved already that I was talking nonsense pre his signing.

I've said a few times though that despite providing obvious balance to the team, he has a tendancy to kind of run in snatches. Often he starts games brightly before fading, and whether thats as a result of tiredness or the full back getting into him a bit I'm not sure. I do feel though that his actual meaningful contributions to games, not counting nice flicks on the half way line and the rest have lessened over the last few weeks.

My view is he's becoming a bit ornamental, and needs a rocket up his erse. If Dossena wasn't quite so bad, I'd advocate Aurelio moving to left midfield for a game or two and giving Albert a bit of a rest. I just get the feeling that we need to see a lot more from him. Kuyt on the other side is a quarter of the footballer, but this season has contributed far more and my hunch at least is that Riera is on a bit of a downward spiral.

You're having a laugh?

The lads form has dipped a little but his ball retention and use of the ball is superb. He's extremely intelligent and his movement, passing and quality show in just about every game he plays and he's a major reason we're up at the top of the league such is the improvement he's made to our team in that position. Just because the lads lost a bit of form over the last 3 or 4 games means absoloutely nothing.

He's quality, he's added alot of ability to the team and he's helped the likes of Alonso and Gerrard at times produce some of the best football we've seen from this side in years. If we had another player as good on the right as him we'd have one hell of a front six providing the clown played them all in the correct position.

Tend to agree with Stu on Riera here.

For me this is a case of many fans expecting a player to be sh.ite, then realising he's actually pretty good, then completely overrating him based on his initial performances, before then being disappointed at the fact that he is 'just' a quality player rather than a world class one.

He isn't the only player whose performance has dipped in recent weeks though - that goes for half the first team. Perhaps his final ball/goal threat could improve but overall we got a good player for a decent price with Riera.

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:16 pm

I'm certainly not "having a laugh" when I'm talking about Riera, I think his form is a concern (or at least I'm concerned about it anyway). Stu says that "just because the lads lost a bit of form over the last 3 or 4 games means absolutely nothing", whereas I think it does mean something, it means he's lost form

. Now since we're all in agreement that his form has dipped over the last three or four games (this must be the only place in the World where people agree with you but go off on one anyway), the only point of discussion is what you do about it if anything.

Now option one I suppose is to do absolutely nothing, leave it as it is and no doubt he'll eventually get going again. This approach has plenty going for it, Riera is a very good player and at some point he will start playing well again. Equally, even though he's below his best he's still our best left midfielder by a mile, in fact he's our only left midfielder to tell the truth. Can I just reiterate at this point-I AM NOT SAYING HE ISN'T A GOOD PLAYER AND WASN'T A GOOD SIGNING, NOR AM I SAYING HE ISN'T OUR BEST AND ONLY LEFT MIDFIELDER.

Option two is firstly to consider why he has lost a bit of form since pretty much everyone accepts that he has, and secondly to have a little think if there is anything you can do about it. This I guess is where the "having a laugh" bit comes in. Now sometimes players just lose form for no real reason, they just have a couple of off games and their confidence dips. Other times they are carrying a niggle which prohibits them playing to their optimum. I guess I should stick fatigue in for the pro-rotationalists as a reason why someones form should dip, or it might they are mentally not there, in dispute with the manager, looking to engineer a move, homesick, reverting back to actual form,having problems with the Mrs and probably about fifty other reasons besides which I can't think of right now.

Now my complete guess in the case of Riera is that it's a combination of a few factors. I think that bizarrely fatigue is an issue where he's concerned as he's not used to pace of the matches over here. He's barely completed a game yet, and I've no doubt that when he keeps getting subbed it's basically because he's knackered. Another relevent factor IMHO in his case is that he is the only option and he knows it. He can basically play at 60-70% of his potential and still be the best left midfielder at the club. I also think that as Kuyt has wieghed in regularly with goals, and Gerrard scores ridiculous amounts for a midfield player, his contributions of a real game changing nature haven't come under the microscope as much as they might have.

My solution is not to declare him sh!t, nor a bad signing. My solution is/was in the topic starter to consider if we have any type of option available that could at least put a fraction of pressure opun him, and also give us a "resting" option should we need it down the track (which in his case we absolutely definately will). Aurelio it seems to me is the most sensible option, but it does as I mentioned involve giving Dossena a slot at left back which may be a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. He may I guess also be helped out if we were to stick with the 4-5-1 as this would put less pressure on him to contribute in a defensive sense, something which he doesn't appear to be overly comfortable with.

I think though he also needs to be made aware that players such as Ryan Giggs and Robert Pires regularly made game changing contributions from left-midfield, and while he isn't in their bracket I am absolutely convinced he is capable of being much more of a key player than he is currently showing.

I really rate him, and stu is right that he has been a big plus this season. The thing is though, we are in with the big boys now, we are fully involved in the title race. I won't say too much on that score as the thread will disappear, but we're in that period where we have to win each and every match. To do that, we can't just keep relying on Gerrard and occasionally Kuyt to score a goal or to make one. The others need to contribute more too, and wif we are going to win it then Riera is amongst a bunch of players who need to step up 25-35% in my view.

One last thing, some people have said it's unfair to single out Riera. There are other players as well who are playing worse than he is, but he was the one I started a topic about and there it is. Needless to say I've got a bullsh!t theory on pretty much all of the players, and if I get round to it I'll stick them up as well. I really like Riera though and think he is potentially a match-winning player for us, he just needs to show it.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:29 pm

My concern about Riera is not only he drifts out of games, but that his final ball is poor. He gives balance to the side has good movement and a few good tricks. He holds the ball extremely well and outside the box his passing is good enough. Once he gets near the box however he seems to make the wrong discision most of the time passing when he should shoot , shoot when he should pass etc etc.

Good player but needs to work on his choices.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:32 pm

I hear what you're saying Mick but I just don't see what we can do about it without weakening the team. Moving Aurelio up (assuming he's fit) brings in Dossena, which is flirting with disaster. Babel's done little to earn a starting berth wide left and Benayoun's not been much better. Obviously, if he's knackered, one of those two will need to be given a game or two before long but, frankly, I don't expect them to put the wind up Riera when the do. So, I guess it requires an arm around the shoulder and the manager telling him that he's done well since arriving but that it's time to raise his game to the level we all know he's capable of, etc. etc. Maybe this is a job for Sammy Lee.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:37 pm

s@int wrote:My concern about Riera is not only he drifts out of games, but that his final ball is poor. He gives balance to the side has good movement and a few good tricks. He holds the ball extremely well and outside the box his passing is good enough. Once he gets near the box however he seems to make the wrong discision most of the time passing when he should shoot , shoot when he should pass etc etc.

Good player but needs to work on his choices.

I think that's a good point because there's been a few times where he's gone for goal inexplicably when a better pass was on. The incident last night where he went for power instead of placement on the cross in the box is another where his choice was the wrong one. He's providing most of what we need from a LM but I think there's another level he could get to with a bit more application.

by **Scottbot** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:22 pm

Fo Dne wrote:He's also played Ngog, Dossena, Lucas completely out of position by putting them on the pitch.

Brilliant, that really got me that....

by **Fowler_E7** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:31 pm

i can think of about 10 players who are doing a lot worse than Riera at the moment, i think this thread should have been directed at Mascherano who of our better players has been very poor recently

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:42 pm

Fowler_E7 wrote:i can think of about 10 players who are doing a lot worse than Riera at the moment, i think this thread should have been directed at Mascherano who of our better players has been very poor recently

As I said earlier, the thread isn't "directed" at Riera, it's simply an appraisal of how he's going. Just because I've talked about Riera, it doesn't necessarily follow surely that I have to mention every player in the team who's not playing to his best "In the interests of fairness, I've talked about Riera so now I'll move onto Masherano" etc. Feck me the posts would be like books, if they aren't already.

Since you mention him though and others have, my opinion on Masherano is this and I'll try to be brief:

I think in a 4-5-1 he is very comfortable and a top player. He is the best holding midfielder in World football at the moment IMHO and if he is asked to do what he does best, there is nobody better. What he does best is defend the back four.

Similarly, when he plays in a 4-4-2 with Gerrard, he is bang in his comfort zone. He sits, Gerrard bombs and creates and everyones a winner. When he plays though in a 4-4-2 with Alonso, his form very much depends upon Xabi. If the Spaniard comes out of the pocket and creates, it's all fine and dandy. If on the other hand Xabi sits, they fall over each other, we don't create and Masherano begins to bomb forward himself, which is not what he does best and then he looks an inferior player. So in a nutshell I am unconcerned by the form of Masherano, he is playing as I would expect him to play given the fact that we have moved the midfielders around a bit. Once we revert back to a constant 4-5-1 (which if we're not prepared to play Gerrard on the right side of midfield we surely will) then Masherano will once again be one of the best players in the team.

Anyways, this thread is about Riera but there you go, that's my view on Masherano and his form.

by **Bam** » Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:58 pm

I tend to agree with Mick here on this, dont get me wrong for the price we paid and for the performances he's shown he has no doubt been a good buy. But recently his performances have been under par considering what we saw from him earlier on in the campaign. Of course he is still our best option out wide as he still offers us natural width and balance, and his touch is superb!
Like a few of our players at the moment he seems to be going through the motions, and drifting through matches without any telling product come the final third.

When you have a player who has had a little slump in form its nice to have willing and able cover to keep them on their toes. Who knows Riera may have already become slightly complacent, he's basically walked into the first team since his arrival and knows the position is more or less his own. In an ideal world this is when you'd give the 'hungry cheetah ? ago who's been waiting in the wings but unfortunately for us we dont have that 'Hungry Cheetah.

I think Riera could do with a goal or two aswell, if he was able to find the net a bit more it will only serve as a positive for him, his game and the team. Never the less with what we've got in personel behind him in the pecking order, I'd still be inclined to stick it out with him. He's our ONLY option.

Come January I think it wouldnt hurt to look for another player who can play on the flank and give the likes of Riera and Kuyt a run for their money. Even if it was a loan deal to the end of the season just to pep up competition for places. I watched Ribery's performance for Bayern the other night and he's playing really well, but I highly doubt we'll be able to get someone that good on loan.

by **Fowler_E7** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:27 am

bigmick wrote:
Fowler_E7 wrote:i can think of about 10 players who are doing a lot worse than Riera at the moment, i think this thread should have been directed at Mascherano who of our better players has been very poor recently

As I said earlier, the thread isn't "directed" at Riera, it's simply an appraisal of how he's going. Just because I've talked about Riera, it doesn't necessarily follow surely that I have to mention every player in the team who's not playing to his best "In the interests of fairness, I've talked about Riera so now I'll move onto Masherano" etc. Feck me the posts would be like books, if they aren't already.

Since you mention him though and others have, my opinion on Masherano is this and I'll try to be brief:

I think in a 4-5-1 he is very comfortable and a top player. He is the best holding midfielder in World football at the moment IMHO and if he is asked to do what he does best, there is nobody better. What he does best is defend the back four.

Similarly, when he plays in a 4-4-2 with Gerrard, he is bang in his comfort zone. He sits, Gerrard bombs and creates and everyones a winner. When he plays though in a 4-4-2 with Alonso, his form very much depends upon Xabi. If the Spaniard comes out of the pocket and creates, it's all fine and dandy. If on the other hand Xabi sits, they fall over each other, we don't create and Masherano begins to bomb forward himself, which is not what he does best and then he looks an inferior player. So in a nutshell I am unconcerned by the form of Masherano, he is playing as I would expect him to play given the fact that we have moved the midfielders around a bit. Once we revert back to a constant 4-5-1 (which if we're not prepared to play Gerrard on the right side of midfield we surely will) then Masherano will once again be one of the best players in the team.

Anyways, this thread is about Riera but there you go, that's my view on Masherano and his form.

sorry to have changed the subject away from Riera, just thought it was a bit strange that you would choose to single him out, when while his form has dipped he is far from the worst player and not one one of the problems for the team at the moment.

The reason i brought up Mascherano was i beleive Rafa has come into a problem at the moment with how to use him. In the Argentina team he is surounded by top creative talent in the midfield, fullbacks and upfront, which leaves him to do his midfield destroyer act which he is superb at, picking up every loose ball on the pitch and playing it simple to an offensive player. At Liverpool we have an average right back a striker at right mid plus Mascherano himself who offers next to nothing going forward.

Now personally i think that if Mascherano is to play(which i prefer) then it has to be at the expense of Kuyt, who though does chip in with goals and the occasional assist playing on the right, is clearly no midfielder and too many attacks break down with both him Mascherano in the same midfield, added to the fact that arebeloa is not exactly cafu going forward, i think we have some major offensive weaknesses at the moment. I dont think any player in particular is to blame to be honest, but the team especially in midfeld and right back lacks skill, technique and basic attacking insticts, this problem lies at the feet of the manager to find the right balance in the side.

Sorry i kind of rambled on to several diffrent arguments hope u get the general jist

by **Quadrophenia** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:28 am

bigmick wrote:
Fowler_E7 wrote:i can think of about 10 players who are doing a lot worse than Riera at the moment, i think this thread should have been directed at Mascherano who of our better players has been very poor recently

As I said earlier, the thread isn't "directed" at Riera, it's simply an appraisal of how he's going. Just because I've talked about Riera, it doesn't necessarily follow surely that I have to mention every player in the team who's not playing to his best "In the interests of fairness, I've talked about Riera so now I'll move onto Masherano" etc. Feck me the posts would be like books, if they aren't already.

Since you mention him though and others have, my opinion on Masherano is this and I'll try to be brief:

I think in a 4-5-1 he is very comfortable and a top player. He is the best holding midfielder in World football at the moment IMHO and if he is asked to do what he does best, there is nobody better. What he does best is defend the back four.

Similarly, when he plays in a 4-4-2 with Gerrard, he is bang in his comfort zone. He sits, Gerrard bombs and creates and everyones a winner. When he plays though in a 4-4-2 with Alonso, his form very much depends upon Xabi. If the Spaniard comes out of the pocket and creates, it's all fine and dandy. If on the other hand Xabi sits, they fall over each other, we don't create and Masherano begins to bomb forward himself, which is not what he does best and then he looks an inferior player. So in a nutshell I am unconcerned by the form of Masherano, he is playing as I would expect him to play given the fact that we have moved the midfielders around a bit. Once we revert back to a constant 4-5-1 (which if we're not prepared to play Gerrard on the right side of midfield we surely will) then Masherano will once again be one of the best players in the team.

Anyways, this thread is about Riera but there you go, that's my view on Masherano and his form.

You missed out Dossena, Aurelio, Agger, Lucas and Keane. :laugh:

by **LFC2007** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:37 am

He hasn't been as effective or threatening in recent games in comparison with the start he made. He's been a little sloppier, hasn't reached the by-line as often, made the odd poor decision in and around the box, but his general play has remained fairly consistent (more consistent than Kuyt in that respect IMO). I don't think there's a great deal to worry about though.

Cue the downward spiral.

by **Scottbot** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:56 am

Quadrophenia wrote:You missed out Dossena, Aurelio, Agger, Lucas and Keane.

And that's just five of the players who have been 'carried' all the way to the top of the table....

by **Rush Job** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:36 am

bigmick wrote:Am I alone in becoming a fraction concerned about his actual contribution to games? Now this is not some lame attempt by me to re-visit my extreme reservations about us initially signing him, I've already said I was totally wrong on that score. He is a far better player than I remember from his City days, and has proved already that I was talking nonsense pre his signing.

I've said a few times though that despite providing obvious balance to the team, he has a tendancy to kind of run in snatches. Often he starts games brightly before fading, and whether thats as a result of tiredness or the full back getting into him a bit I'm not sure. I do feel though that his actual meaningful contributions to games, not counting nice flicks on the half way line and the rest have lessened over the last few weeks.

My view is he's becoming a bit ornamental, and needs a rocket up his erse. If Dossena wasn't quite so bad, I'd advocate Aurelio moving to left midfield for a game or two and giving Albert a bit of a rest. I just get the feeling that we need to see a lot more from him. Kuyt on the other side is a quarter of the footballer, but this season has contributed far more and my hunch at least is that Riera is on a bit of a downward spiral.

Yeh I feel the same mate. I was thinking watching him last night that the biggest thing we get from him is balance, he basically gives us a left foot in a place we`ve needed for a while, and that alone makes us a better proposition.
For what ever reason (poor pre-season?) he seems to be only able to give around a hour and with the amount of games he`s played you would think he would be up to speed by now, so thats a strange one.
Thats not to say I think he hasnt got talent because he has, I just wouldnt mind a few more crosses from him because he has the ability to put in dangerous balls, I also wouldnt mind seeing him shoot more and be a little more aggressive in the final third.
He needs to kick on now and show he can be a match winner for us, thats what you want from your left winger after all.

by **dame** » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:57 am

To solve our over-reliance on Riera in the left-side midfield, we need sb who is ideally skilful, can dribble, fast, left-footed.

within the squad: try Babel / Benayuan, El Zhar or Pennant (in the order of my confidence). They are all right-footed (for El zhar i do not know). But not many teams are lucky / rich enough to have world class right / left flank players at the same time.

Bena is skilful but is lightweighted. He faced less physical challenge in the flank. Imagine he plays some little one-two in the flank. Could easily create chaos or win freekicks in that area.

Babel is another option for his speed and directness.

El Zhar is skilful and can dribble a bit from what i see this season.

Pennant can dribble too but this crossing skill is not useful if he played on the left.

outside squad: Duff or Cazorla. i always rate Duff. Cazorla very skilful. will not be cheap though.

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