Liverpool FC Forum

by **7_Kewell** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:24 pm

woof woof ! wrote:Two very good finishes, from two very fine passes. Was disappointed to see him taken off. Thought Rafa might have taken off Benayoun moved Kuyt to his accustomed (:D ) wide right berth and left Kean and Torres up front, give Kean the chance to grab his hat trick.

i wish Rafa would take Benayoun off and send him packing...he's :censored:

by **tubby** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 7:22 pm

Why all the resentment towards Yossi? Hes been quite effective when he has come on as a sub this season. The problem with Yossi is that he is only effective when he plays a more central role. He wont get to play their very often as long as Stevie is fit so he struggles sometimes when played on the wings. He is great to have as a sub though.

by **masterraj** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:42 pm

I think Benayoun does need to go, he was good at west ham but not good enough since he came.

by **JC_81** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 10:44 pm

devaney wrote:Ok criticsising Robbie's efforts at Inter Milan maybe a bit cruel

Why the fu.ck were you going on about it then?? Make your mind up.

Back on topic - great performance from Keane yesterday, looked like he was back to his form from last season. Does anyone else think that Carson was seriously at fault for both the goals though?? All he had to do was stay on his line both times and it would have been much harder for Keane to score. I never rated Carson and watching that game just convinced me further. Loved Keane's back-heel to Aurelio, brilliant piece of skill.

I guess the jury will still be out on Keane despite that performance, but that just shows what he can do when he has a bit of confidence, and crucially, what he can do when playing in a front two rather than the lone striking role he has had to endure recently. I'm still optimistic he will turn out to be a success for us.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:13 pm

I think Keane's endeavour and work-rate has been second to none during his goalless spell. It's earned Kuyt time in a lot of people's eyes.

I said previously on this thread that there have been occasions when a very small margin has been the difference between Keane scoring or not - e.g. the cracking take from Alonso that he drilled wide or the good stop from the keeper when he tried to take it round him vs Atletico.

Now we've seen a touch of class from the guy - I'm delighted for him, I don't care who it was against. Both finishes were supremely clinical. Let's hope he is this confidence player a lot of us thought he was and the floodgates open.

I was a little surprised Rafa subbed him to be honest, for a couple of reasons - firstly, Rafa talks about goals being important for a striker afterwards, so a hat-trick wouldn't have done Keane any harm. Secondly, 20 minutes playing up front with Torres against a team that were beaten would also have been of benefit, no?

by **devaney** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:56 am

john craig wrote:
devaney wrote:Ok criticsising Robbie's efforts at Inter Milan maybe a bit cruel

Why the fu.ck were you going on about it then?? Make your mind up.

Back on topic - great performance from Keane yesterday, looked like he was back to his form from last season. Does anyone else think that Carson was seriously at fault for both the goals though?? All he had to do was stay on his line both times and it would have been much harder for Keane to score. I never rated Carson and watching that game just convinced me further. Loved Keane's back-heel to Aurelio, brilliant piece of skill.

I guess the jury will still be out on Keane despite that performance, but that just shows what he can do when he has a bit of confidence, and crucially, what he can do when playing in a front two rather than the lone striking role he has had to endure recently. I'm still optimistic he will turn out to be a success for us.

John - I said a bit cruel not irrelevant - my mind is made up! - 2 goals against an awful West Brom who did not have one shot on goal only goes a very small way to convince me that I am wrong about Robbie. One excellent game that has been a very long time coming against awful opposition is not the answer.

You see that is the difference and the point that I am trying to make, I do care who the goals were scored against. Perhaps we can agree on this - scoring against Man U or Chelsea is a lot harder than scoring against West Brom.

by **Sabre** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:59 am

devaney wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
7_Kewell wrote:
devaney wrote:
7_Kewell wrote:back to topic..

i think Keane is doing OK...wish Rafa would leave him on the field for the full 90 so he can get more confidence...the lad looks proper down when he's off and i think he might have knicked a goal on tuesday. Wrong call to bring him off and replace him with Ngog

Why exactly do you think Keane is doing ok. 2 goals in 18 games - not creating much - running around a bit like somebody who is trying to hard. Completely cocked up against Athletico Madrid when he had a relatively easy opportunity to double his tally and give Liverpool a two nil lead. But oh no what does Robbie do he tries some playground fancy tricks and Liverpool end up with a draw! If you think that's doing ok then I can't see it!!

he has created a fair share of chances, and has assisted in a few goals...perhaps someone can look up the stats?

his play is also intelligent, he always wants the ball and he creates space. yeah. ok he cocked up a chance against Atletico but he also scored a fine goal.

I'm content with his form and believe he's one of the reasons we're joint top. He's also proven quality at Premiership level and he will come good.

He had a great game and scored two very good goals especially the first.
West Brom considering they had more of the ball than Liverpool in the first half they never had a shot on target for the entire match which sums them up as a team. Just hope as I have been eluding to that this isn't the level where Robbie excels. Delighted with his performance though - he looked very sharp and extremely determined.

Good poster.

I found your criticism on Robie Keane a bit harsh last week.

But I like the fact that you're ready to give him credit when he does well, and even step back a bit saying it was cruel to talk about Inter.

However, I disagree the voices that diminish his impact because it was against WBA. The movement of Keane was as good as Gerrard's pass, and the second finnish was also very good.

Ok, the first goal came after a mistake a Valero (a simply decent CM) that allowed Gerrard to have a great ball, but Keane's movement to get rid of the marking was very good.

by **Scottbot** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:05 pm

A good performance from Keane on Saturday and hopefully he might have bought himself a little bit of breathing space and I believe he is capable of raising his game above the levels we saw on Saturday. I would implore Keane's critics to take a look at Kuyt's performances this season compared to some of his worst in a red shirt, the difference is enormous. Form and confidence have made all the difference.

by **whylongball?** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:11 pm

john craig wrote:
devaney wrote:Ok criticsising Robbie's efforts at Inter Milan maybe a bit cruel

Why the fu.ck were you going on about it then?? Make your mind up.

Back on topic - great performance from Keane yesterday, looked like he was back to his form from last season. Does anyone else think that Carson was seriously at fault for both the goals though?? All he had to do was stay on his line both times and it would have been much harder for Keane to score. I never rated Carson and watching that game just convinced me further. Loved Keane's back-heel to Aurelio, brilliant piece of skill.

I guess the jury will still be out on Keane despite that performance, but that just shows what he can do when he has a bit of confidence, and crucially, what he can do when playing in a front two rather than the lone striking role he has had to endure recently. I'm still optimistic he will turn out to be a success for us.

i think i was Carson fault as well. The first was hard but good goalkeeper should be able to react to it. The second was definitely wrong decision making. WEll good for Keane..Hopefully he will go on to score more. Sometime you need luck.

by **performer** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:14 pm

Robbie keane player of the week on virgin video check it out:
http://www.football.virginmedia.com/page....3182172

by **Dundalk** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:02 pm

Fair play to him getting his first few goals. He took the first one really well and the second was good finishing. Hopefully this is the start of things to come. His movement in the West Brom game was very good, i watched him off the ball and he was on the move the whole time.

All this and no stupid cartwheel celebration - what more could you want

by **shakey** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 9:19 pm

I like him as a player & think his work rate is great for the team,plus good to see he has got his scoring boots back on!
But dont know why Rafa had to take him off,could of let the boy try & get his hatrick

by **Feeney** » Mon Nov 10, 2008 11:41 pm

Here's the latest piece from Jackanory, sorry, Paul Tomkns and for once in a while, it's quite a good read and relates to Robbie Keane quite well, while poking fun at the often wrong press and the sometimes wrong fans among us and even this forum. :nod

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/NG162031081110-1033.htm

TOMKINS: THE EVOLUTION OF A SQUAD
Paul Tomkins 10 November 2008
Liverpool brush West Brom aside with contempt, and what is the post-match tv debate about? – why was Robbie Keane taken off.

Keane played brilliantly, and took his two goals like the top-class finisher I believe he is. His movement was outstanding, and like Kuyt and Torres, and Beardsley and Rush before them, he works incredibly hard. There's no standing around, sulking and pouting with him.

But he was taken off at 2-0, and the Reds won 3-0. So the only topic should be how well Liverpool played, not the decision to deny a player his hat-trick. Can we dispense with the cult of the individual? Frankly, it drives me potty. What is the only thing that really matters? The three points.

By all means express a little sympathy for Keane; like any striker, he wanted to grab that third goal, and I was willing him to do so. But the manager took him off, and the team subsequently increased its lead. Keane remains fresh for the upcoming schedule, and so there can be no complaints.

At first it was rotation; Rafa was slated for it, even though I've constantly argued that he has done so no more than his main rivals. He was told to concentrate on winning games with his strongest team, then rest his star players after an hour or 70 minutes. And yet when he does so, it's almost a case of ‘how dare he?'. I do feel with Benítez that he has to be criticised for something.

And as well as the anchormen always looking for the negative slant, the problem lies with ex-players as pundits. If they're there to talk about good play on the pitch, then their insight can be excellent. But more often than not they criticise a manager's decisions, when they are clearly still thinking from an individual player's perspective. A manager's remit is so much bigger than any single player's, because he is the man responsible for results. He thinks only about the bigger picture.

Liverpool's best-ever season in terms of games won was the 71% in 1979; currently, the total for this season stands at 75%. That may not continue until May, but let's acknowledge the work in getting to that level – the big picture – and not the far less significant denial of a player to get his hat-trick.

It's the same with all the rot about when Gerrard was playing on the right in 2005/06. It didn't matter that Liverpool won two-thirds of their league games (the second best-ever tally in the club's history), and brushed aside several Premiership teams, including Manchester United and Chelsea, to win the FA Cup, with the captain scoring 23 times.

And yet it was all “it's not his best position”, and “he won't be happy”. As much as it would please me to see Gerrard grinning like a Cheshire cat because he's playing well in his favoured role, I know there's a specific smile that will mean far more to him: the one that darts across his face when he lifts aloft the Premiership trophy.

And if you told him now that playing right-midfield would guarantee that, I think he'd take it, don't you? Hell, I'm sure he'd even play in goal to get that medal.

As it happens, he's been playing either in a central midfield pair, or off the main striker. But when everyone's fit, there will be decisions to be made as to who plays. Mascherano and Alonso have been two of the team's best performers so far, Torres will play 95% of matches when fit, and Robbie Keane has added that special combination of link-play coupled with the ability to approach 20 goals in a season.

Riera is giving the team great width, and at times it looks like the ball is glued to his foot, while Dirk Kuyt has had his best few months as a Liverpool player. Ryan Babel, who is almost unstoppable when on song, is having to settle for the bench most weeks, and this overall picture is all something we should celebrate. It's what we've all wanted: players in form, and genuine competition for places.

When Martin Skrtel is fit again, there'll be another headache for the manager; one he will welcome that with open arms. All the while, Sami Hyypia is still on hand. (Could there have been a more soothing sight at Stamford Bridge as Chelsea grew desperate in the final stages than that mop of bright yellow hair rising to head away each long punt?) Again, I feel sorry for Sami that he probably won't play as much as he wants. But I am incredibly grateful that he's still around.

So at present, there are at least 16 players I could make a very strong case for deserving to feature in the starting line-up most weeks, and plenty of others I feel assured won't let the team down. That's far better than struggling to find six or seven you want to see play.

But then the focus in the media shifts to who has to miss out, or who has to shift across or drop back to a different role. It's then about who is unhappy, who will feel hurt or slighted to be left out, or substituted, or played out of position. That's the role of the media: to sniff a story, to stir the pot. But again, I couldn't give a stuff who plays if the results are going the Reds' way.

Keeping everyone happy won't be easy – that's the challenge of managing a big squad where more than eleven players have a good shout to start most matches. But with the side of ‘rotation' that never gets praised, Rafa never keeps anyone in the cold for too long; while some players won't like it when it's their turn to be rested, those who haven't featured as much know that he will call on them if the situation merits. No-one is ever completely frozen out.

Xabi Alonso had just started nine games in the row, and, surreally, the talk was of him being the one who always has to miss out. Well, what about Carlos Tevez at Manchester United? A manager cannot field 15 players to satisfy all his star names.

It's the same with Robbie Keane being taken off. Sure, he'll be disappointed, but he'll have looked at the four goals he's now bagged as a decent contribution, on top of improving all-round play, and more importantly he'll look at the Reds top of the league and the Champions League group. He'll know that he played an important part in wins over Man United and Chelsea.

He didn't come to Liverpool to try and top the 23 goals he scored last season for Spurs; he came to challenge for the serious trophies. And so far that's looking an inspired decision.

People kept telling me that Keane would never find his confidence while regularly being substituted, but equally, he has started a lot of games, and has therefore remained a key part of the team. And despite Rafa replacing him after an hour in several games, he's continued to improve, and now has four goals in his last seven starts.

I may be wrong, but I feel that Benítez tests his players. And in the Spaniard's own Darwinian way, the strong survive and the weak are sold on – only for a new crop to arrive, in which there may inevitably be a couple of flops, but there will also be a clutch of winners; so that season upon season, a better mentality evolves around the place.

In an age where players can fall into the comfort zone, or rest on their laurels (and their bank balance), there's no harm in making sure every last player has a hunger for success. Without naming names, there have been a few players in the last 18 years who haven't been half as keen on winning games as they have in playing the part of a Premiership footballer.

From what the senior players have said, Rafa does not go out of his way to put an arm around a player, or tell him in person how great he is (even if he does extol their virtues to the press). It's important to have someone like Sammy Lee around, who is such a great ‘people person' as well as a top-class coach. You need that balance.

The opposite to Rafa is someone like Harry Redknapp, who arrived at Spurs and told each player to his face how good he was, and what he does well. By contrast, Rafa will point out each player's faults.

And yet both methods can be effective. The key is to do what works for you. There's no use in constantly telling your players they are the best in the world if that leads to complacency or over-inflated egos. And there is also a logic to getting players to work on their weaknesses.

You could argue that Djibril Cissé was a player who needed to feel loved, and who really struggled with the rotation system. I'm pleased to see the Frenchman doing fairly well at Sunderland; he's a player I like. However, Rafa's solution to the problem Cissé posed in terms of consistency, confidence and concentration was, quite brutally, to sell him, and buy someone better – and, crucially, a lot mentally tougher – in Torres.

(Cissé will always have my respect for the way he came back from those horrific injuries, and in that sense his character was immense, but he was too emotional, too volatile, for the kind of steely attitude Benítez was trying to create.)

The final debate with Robbie Keane will be his price tag. But a player's value does not exist in a vacuum; it relates to a need. Take the example of a battered old motorbike (not that I'm equating Keane to a shabby Kawasaki!). In a normal situation, its worth won't be that high. However, if you are stranded in the middle of the Australian outback in 50º heat, with 100 miles to the safety, then you'll pay your every last cent for such a bike.

In other words, if Liverpool win the league this season, and he continues to play a major part, Keane will have proved worth every last penny.

by **Number 9** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:48 am

Had Torres not been injured a few times we would be seeing a lot more from them both as a striking force!
Keane showed glimpses of what he is capable of on Sat but there is more yet to come.
Hopefully now that is Torres hamstring niggle over and they can both get a run of games upfront TOGETHER (yes Rafa)!

Two of the most intelligent players in the League if not the game,they will get an understanding going but it will take a run of games!

by **tonyeh** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 12:37 pm

But he was taken off at 2-0, and the Reds won 3-0. So the only topic should be how well Liverpool played, not the decision to deny a player his hat-trick. Can we dispense with the cult of the individual? Frankly, it drives me potty. What is the only thing that really matters? The three points.

I diagree with this. The three points were in the bag. What mattered at that point of the game was the continuing development of one of our forwards and a possible hat-trick for him. If it came, it would have done wonders for that said development.

2 goals was a boost for Keane, no doubt (even if was against WBA), but a hat-trick would really have gone a long way to kicking that monkey off his back and out the window.

The three points from the WBA game was not what mattered, it's Keane confidence and the next three points and the three after that that mattered, nor does it have to anything to do with "the cult of the individual" as Tomkins calls it. Keane's development as a striker is essential to Liverpool's title challenge this year.

The bottom line was, Rafa didn't HAVE to take Keane off, especially when he looked like scoring again. That's why people are talking about it.

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