Liverpool FC Forum

by **Zidane** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:40 pm

I hate Lampard, every time I watch him play I say to myself "What the :censored:

" he's terrible. He has a knack for scoring and Chelsea's system/team I guess is perfect for him because honestly when I think of him anywhere else I find it hard to believe that he would be good enough to adapt elsewhere and put up the numbers he does at Chelsea IE him being terrible for England yeah he has his games here and there but who doesn't? I guess Mourinho would have used him correctly as well but I dunno, i've always despised him. Maybe i'm biased.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:42 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Of course playing with better players has enhanced his ability to score, but he still has to get in the position and execute the shot. As for the system he played in at Chelsea, yes, having Makele behind him helped, as did having Joe Cole and Robben either side, but he still played a crucial role in a title winning side. He wasn't carried by the rest of the team - he scored 13 goals and got 16 assists in 04/05. Goals aren't the be all and end all in football, but I'd like to think they're very important . He's excellent at supporting the play, he has a good range of passing, he has a very good strike on him - with both left and right feet, he's always looking to get into dangerous positions, to link up play, to score and make assists. I certainly don't think someones like Jimmy Bullard could've replaced him in the Chelsea side that won the league 3 years ago and been as effective.

As for using the opinions of top coaches to back up your opinions, you did so with Barton earlier:

It also isn't popular on here, but another " common opinion" (which I share through my own beliefs) in the football world amoungst coaches and manager is the alround quality of Joey Barton. He's held in very high regard by ALOT of top managers, players and coaches and people who've taught him from a young age but there are obvious (and 100% correct) doubts about his attitude and mental state.

I'm saying, the opinions of those managers who voted Lampard best midfielder in the UCL last year, along with all the other the top managers who praise him, the fact that Mourinho thinks he's one of the best midfielders in Europe, all count as well. It works both ways.

I've never once questioned his ability to get into good and dangerous positions. Goals and assists do not tell the hole story. For example, Gerrard didn't assist or score against Everton and I thought he was by a mile the best player on the pitch and shown class alot of players can only dream of.

He has a good range of passing, you're right. Not a great range of passing and yes I'd say his link up play is pretty good if not quality.

Again, I clearly stated I wasn't using the fact other top managers rate Barton as my arguement. It was merely a statement. I clearly stated twice that I believe what I believe because I see it for myself and I don't agree with what I've been told by certain people, whose opinions are worth respecting. I do not get my opinions off others, as some seem to do on this website.

For the record, incase you're wondering, these people also think pretty much along the same lines as myself about Lampard and I'm going to agree more so with people who I know understand the game and know on a personal level than some top coach who spends millions on a pile of :censored:

. Assessing players individually is something I would say I know an awful lot about and something I pride myself on.

I even understand Alex Ferguson's comments on Robbie Keane and I generally and unfortunately agree with him alot of of the time. What I find laughable, is when people use common opinion as an arguement. It holds no water with me, it never has and never will.

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:43 pm

When he has someone in the england team to do the donkey work for him he does well for england as well .

I hate him and always have but christ the guys record is untouchable for a midfielder in the prem .

That just makes me hate him even more

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:45 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Also, I couldn't give a toss if Alex Ferguson, Rafa Benitez, the Brazil manager and Bob Paisley ( ) were sat infront of me telling me Lucas was a good player. I'd have absoloutely none of it. He's rubbish and I've seen better players on a Sunday and Saturday in the leagues around Liverpool, thats the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

See, you say things like that, Stu, after coming out with comments like this:

It also isn't popular on here, but another " common opinion" (which I share through my own beliefs) in the football world amoungst coaches and manager is the alround quality of Joey Barton. He's held in very high regard by ALOT of top managers, players and coaches and people who've taught him from a young age but there are obvious (and 100% correct) doubts about his attitude and mental state.

I've actually heard people (who's opinions have deserved respect) compare him to Roy Keane, personally I think thats a bit far fetched but I can see where they come from.

See, I can't help but see a massive inconsistency here. On the one hand, you lambast people for using the "if he's good enough for..." argument to defend players while, on the other, you ask people to take your word for it that Barton's a quality player because there are people out there, "who's opinions have deserved respect," that say as much. It's using the exact same argument from authority that you're criticizing others for doing, except you're not even naming your authorities. Not especially convincing, that.

I was making statements. The people who's opinions I respect have absoloutely nothing to do with professional football at the highest level either.

To be quite honest Bob, I don't give a flying one if you think they are inconsistent or not. The fact is I don't use that as a sole arguement to prove I'm right or wrong and there is absoloutely no way on the face of this earth I'd name names on here ever again. It doesn't get you anywhere apart from jealous fool's calling you a liar etc.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:47 pm

GYBS wrote:His fellow pros and managers agree his up there with the best .

You cant get bigger praise than that .

Many England colleagues don't rate him at all as a matter of fact. So thats plain and simply wrong.

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 7:49 pm

Matter of Fact is it ? How do you know that then ?

Certainly enough of his fellow pros and managers rate him enough to have him in the team of the year pretty much every year as well as PFA Player of the year as well and european midfielder of the year as well.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:43 pm

Fo Dne wrote:I've never once questioned his ability to get into good and dangerous positions. Goals and assists do not tell the hole story. For example, Gerrard didn't assist or score against Everton and I thought he was by a mile the best player on the pitch and shown class alot of players can only dream of.

He has a good range of passing, you're right. Not a great range of passing and yes I'd say his link up play is pretty good if not quality.

Again, I clearly stated I wasn't using the fact other top managers rate Barton as my arguement. It was merely a statement. I clearly stated twice that I believe what I believe because I see it for myself and I don't agree with what I've been told by certain people, whose opinions are worth respecting. I do not get my opinions off others, as some seem to do on this website.

For the record, incase you're wondering, these people also think pretty much along the same lines as myself about Lampard and I'm going to agree more so with people who I know understand the game and know on a personal level than some top coach who spends millions on a pile of . Assessing players individually is something I would say I know an awful lot about and something I pride myself on.

I even understand Alex Ferguson's comments on Robbie Keane and I generally and unfortunately agree with him alot of of the time. What I find laughable, is when people use common opinion as an arguement. It holds no water with me, it never has and never will.

Fair enough, we agree to disagree.

I believe Lampard is an excellent player, one who couldn't be replaced by Jimmy Bullard or someone similar and have the same if not greater effect. Goals and assists don't tell the whole story, but they're very important, and attributing most of his successes on that front to his teammates, and the system he plays in, doesn't accurately reflect his influence in the side IMO.

I do respect the opinions of those at the top of their trade, that includes Mourinho who I see as a top class manager - if a bit of a c...t at times. I'd never judge a player exclusively on what those at the top say, but I certainly think their opinions merit strong consideration. Following common opinion is one thing, respecting the views of those managing at the top level is another.

by **Simari** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 8:53 pm

Frank Lampard.

Quite a dilemma when it comes to opinions regarding his abilities.

So, one opinion is that he is an good player surrounded by great players. As opposed to the great ones lowering their standards, Frank is excelling at what he does best from midfield - score goals.

Another opinion is that he is an excellent player. If you removed the players around him, maybe put him back into the West Ham midfield, would he still score as many goals as he does? Can he find others with his dependable passing game (in my opinion, he is a better passer than our Stevie)? Does he depend far too much on players around him? Would we then question, if Lampard actually had the *attributes* that make him look a great player at Chelsea?

I do agree with the statement that, you are born with certain attributes that will excel at. I do believe that a player can improve with dedicated training. However, the question is: even if a player does improve, will it be good enough for him to be considered anything above average. Inevitably, comparisons will be made with other players who excel at something (for example, passing).

Take for example, our Stevie. If he improves his passing game, will we use words "great, excellent, world-class" when refering to that particular attribute? Or will it be the case that he will always be compared to some of the world's best players and be considered to have an average passing game?

I am also of the opinion that you have footballers who are capable of understanding tactics and those that are just plain thick. Intelligence could be considered an attribute, but it is NOT something you will magically obtain. If you NEVER had it in the first place (e.g by the age of 17 or even earlier), you will not learn to be intelligent in 10 years. Conversely, if you have some footballing brain, you have the capacity to IMPROVE on it.

On the subject of Babel, he has pace, can dribble and does, on the odd occasion, deliver a good cross. If he put in hours of training to improve his technique while crossing - will he suddenly become a better crosser of the ball, even if he lacks the game intelligence to know when / where to cross?

I do believe that certain attributes go hand-in-hand, and it would be difficult to judge if a player has truely improved an attribute when it matters most - playing competetive league / cup games. The one attribute that is a necessity for a world-class team, is game intelligence. All of the players on such a team - need to have some of it, even if it is in varying degrees.

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:27 pm

You rate Joey Barton Stu an hes been around but in my opinion I rate Kevin Nolan better than him. If Nolan was to play with better players around him the lad would get a lot more recognition than hes gettin now, Good player imo who could be a great player with a better team

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:41 pm

I'm enjoying most of the thread because there are a lot of opinions

I found very relevant a couple of posts in the second page of S@int

I think a few players have completely changed their game due to injury, but again they could possibly still be using attributes that they ALWAYS had but hadn't needed to use much until their other attributes were restricted through injury.

Heighway is an obvious one. When he came into the first team he was a flyer, both through the middle and down the wing. He seemed to only have one trick...... he would chase for the ball with the defender, allowing the defender to think he was going to beat Heighway to the ball, then at the last possible moment Heighway would find another gear get the ball and leave the defender dead and buried.(Supermac used to use the same trick for Newcastle)

This worked great for Heighway until his Achilles problem. He lost that incredible burst of speed and became just another quick player and never got it back. He changed his whole game, became a quite astute passer of the ball, lost his high stepping knee action running style and started to dribble, work openings and became much more of a team player.

Admittedly he had always been able to cross a ball on the run, but because of his pace he more often than not had cut inside towards goal, now he began to hit some great crosses both high and low, but more importantly he was picking the right option. Something which had never been his strong point before.

Maybe he already had all the attributes and just hadn't needed them till his injury, or maybe he worked hard to develop them ?

Heighway's trick is universal. The question is, if the Heighway of before the injury would try astute passings would he have been a better player? yes.

Was the attribute there before the injury? Yes. But not as polished, and underused.

What did make him improve? Experience and cleverness. Matches made him learn, and an injury experience aswell. And he was clever enough to adapt, but of couse he had an excellent base attributes to start that progress.

Some players after an injury won't improve, either because they're not clever enough to adapt or because they cannot pose a threat based on other attributes. I'd like to know what's Owen's case for instance. Because the player I knew in Liverpool and Real Madrid caused me real awe. What a player.

Attributes, for instance control of the ball can be improved. But not much, as Radun5 says. You can't make a cráp controller of the ball a very good one with training. But you can convert a woeful controller into a poor controller, and that improvement can make a difference to the player and to the team.

In the case of George Best you mention in other post, he probably was exagerating. His poor foot before wouldn't be as bad as he pretended to be, it probably was good already when he was 18. I think he makes that exageration to stress the importance of working those attributes, as even the slighest difference in an attribute can make a huge difference for a player

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:52 pm

Ah, and what about Sissoko?

Didn't he improve?

Correct me if I'm wrong but the player that signed up Juventus was a better player than the one we signed. He improved.

Remember his first season's? His untimed tackles? didn't he get that right with experience, ending up as the best ball recovery man in our team?

What you could not expect of Sissoko is him to be a holding midfielder. I don't see him dictating the tempo, not now, not in three years time.

by **Kharhaz** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 10:14 pm

Ian Wright. Started professional football late didnt he? and got better with age. If im wrong, i'll just shurrup.

by **JBG** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:08 pm

So did Aldo. Wasn't Aldo nearly 30 when he joined us?

by **Yooj Bigullz** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:10 pm

Kharhaz wrote:Ian Wright. Started professional football late didnt he? and got better with age. If im wrong, i'll just shurrup.

Was it Coppell who found him?

He's a bloke who can pick a player for sure

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 11:37 pm

NANNY RED wrote:You rate Joey Barton Stu an hes been around but in my opinion I rate Kevin Nolan better than him. If Nolan was to play with better players around him the lad would get a lot more recognition than hes gettin now, Good player imo who could be a great player with a better team

Disagree. He's a big hard lard who can mix it but he's not get the technical ability for me to really influence. He can score important goals, which is a sign of character but I just think he's a bit average in to many area's.

Not a bad player by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't say I agree with him being a top midfielder. He is one I would want a closer look at before dismissing him completely but I can never be arsed watching Bolton because I hated Allerdyce and I hate Megson even more.

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