Players that become good - Through experience

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby LFC2007 » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:57 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

Right, and I should trust your judgement. Boumsong, Cheyrou, Cisse,Prutton etc..

But you trust Benitez'? Lucas, Josemi, Nunez, Gonzalez, Kromkamp etc?[/quote]
I trust Benitez, but acknowledge he makes errors. Just as you'd make errors if you were manager, or anyone on this forum.

Back on topic:

I'm sure if you ask any of those players, any of their former coaches, former managers etc., they'll tell you they've improved. Not much in terms of raw ability, but in some physical aspects of the game, and aspects involving decision making.
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Postby Fo Dne » Thu Oct 09, 2008 12:58 pm

GYBS wrote:any chance you can not drag the thread into more rubbish please. thats another thread not this one , the guy has started a good topic to comment on so lets just comment on it .

I was just stating a fact thought wasn't I. How is that rubbish?

Surely stating a fact such as that can't be seen as abuse by you?

I was looking for a response as to why I lost credibility for saying that when I just pointed out a lot of recent poor signings where money was actually spent (wasted) on rubbish has not lost the manager any credebility in your eyes.
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Postby account deleted by request » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:00 pm

If you read (or believe ) George Best's story he spent so much time practising with his "wrong foot" that he became better with that foot than the other!
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Postby Bad Bob » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:01 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

FFS, don't start down this road in yet another thread.  It's a discussion.  If you disagree explain why rather than just dismissing things out of hand.  And you wonder why people find you condescending and belligerent.  :glare:

Whats the point when idiots come back with the great old arguement of "you rated Cheyrou" or "are you saying you know more than a professional" or some other rubbish like that.

There was no insult there, I stated a fact. Grow a pair of balls and allow a little bit of freedom of speech. Its pathetic how politically correct this countries becoming. Ban ban ban, censor, censor, censor. Next they'll be talking about not being able to discipline our own kids... oh wait, they already are! :no

This thread illustrates the sum total of your affect on this forum.  On the positive side, you stimulate interesting footy discussion.  Sabre's taken a point you often make and turned it into a thread that's got great potential.  On the negative side, you condescend to practically everyone that disagrees with you, work hard to shut down debate rather than open it up and persist with the egotistical notion that your beliefs are fact, end of.  In short, you're a Grade A pr.ick to most people on here and then you wonder why some people work so hard to poke holes in your proclamations?  As for the whole censorship argument, do me a favour.  My job is to ensure that we can have a civil conversation on here and you undermine that at virtually every turn.  If you think everyone on here's an idiot that's your prerogative but if you persist on telling everyone so in your posts then we'll continue to have a problem.  Sort out the attitude.
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Postby Owzat » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:01 pm

Fo Dne wrote:I was just stating a fact thought wasn't I. How is that rubbish?

Surely stating a fact such as that can't be seen as abuse by you?


Can you clarify which was a fact - that you made one wrong judgement 4/5 years ago? Might have to trawl through the archives to double check that  ???

:D  :laugh:  :upside:
Last edited by Owzat on Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Yooj Bigullz » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:01 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

I disagree

Lampard was a fat average player, with no outstanding natural ability except a decent shot. He's the kind of player who would stay behind after training and work on his weaknesses and it improved him immensely as a player. He went from watching the 2002 World Cup from a holiday resort (not even considered when there were injuries to central midfielders) to someone who forced himself into the starting XI on a regular basis
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:03 pm

GYBS wrote:why mikel ? ???

he has improved on the timings f his tackles and his positions and he doesnt get carded as often now
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Postby Fo Dne » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:04 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

Right, and I should trust your judgement. Boumsong, Cheyrou, Cisse,Prutton etc..

But you trust Benitez'? Lucas, Josemi, Nunez, Gonzalez, Kromkamp etc?

I trust Benitez, but acknowledge he makes errors. Just as you'd make errors if you were manager, or anyone on this forum.

Back on topic:

I'm sure if you ask any of those players, any of their former coaches, former managers etc., they'll tell you they've improved. Not much in terms of raw ability, but in some physical aspects of the game, and aspects involving decision making.[/quote]
Like I've said, decision making has no black and white. The ball drops to Keane outside the box, you probably want him to pass it wide and get in the box, if he however smacks one in the top corner it becomes the right decision.

If it drops to Gerrard you want him to hit a shot, why? Because his attributes are more suited to that. Its about players and managers learning how to make the most of their attributes. Alot of that comes with confidence, which is mostly what decision making is. Alonso is a prime example of confidence on decision making. When Alonso's on form he hardly ever gives a pass away spraying balls all over the place. When he's off form and looking less confident he's sloppy and plays the wrong pass.

I really couldn't give two hoots what players think of themselves either and I couldn't give a toss what their coaches think. Theres to many people in the game who don't understand the basics anymore hence the reason the game has gone the way it has with less and less good young players coming through.

Lampard being the example, he's always scored goals and been decent, now he's got a license to go and maximise those strengths because he has players around him to do the alround midfield work which he struggles with. He's not improved at all and thats why he always looks completely out of place in an England shirt.
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Postby Yooj Bigullz » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:10 pm

s@int wrote:If you read (or believe ) George Best's story he spent so much time practising with his "wrong foot" that he became better with that foot than the other!

I'm sure Beckham must have practiced his free kicks a bit too
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:11 pm

diego forlan.
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Postby account deleted by request » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:13 pm

I read a book by Stjohn in which he was talking about how when you are young you make most of your decisions by instinct and the better player you are, the more times you will make the right decision. As you get older you start to understand why certain decisions are so much better and see more opportunities to make the important decisions and so you can make them much more often.
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Postby Fo Dne » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:16 pm

Yooj Bigullz wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

I disagree

Lampard was a fat average player, with no outstanding natural ability except a decent shot. He's the kind of player who would stay behind after training and work on his weaknesses and it improved him immensely as a player. He went from watching the 2002 World Cup from a holiday resort (not even considered when there were injuries to central midfielders) to someone who forced himself into the starting XI on a regular basis

He was a young midfielder who had an eye for a goal. He certainly wasn't fat and when he later moved to Chelsea started to get looked favourabley upon. He's nothing more, to this day than a good midfielder in the premier league. He's well drilled and plays alongside some of the best players in the world. I could name at lesat 10 midfielders in the league better than him (alround) and probably another 6 or 7 who could slot into Chelsea's side instead of him and they wouldn't lose anything.

Off the top of my head (some players will be different in style):

Better:

Essien, Deco, Ballack, Joe Cole
Scholes, Anderson
Mascherano, Gerrard, Alonso
Fabregas
Barry
Boateng
Barton
Johnson
Arteta

Similar level:

Bullard
Carrick
Hargreaves
Cahill
Noble
Malbranque
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Postby Fo Dne » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:18 pm

s@int wrote:I read a book by Stjohn in which he was talking about how when you are young you make most of your decisions by instinct and the better player you are, the more times you will make the right decision. As you get older you start to understand why certain decisions are so much better and see more opportunities to make the important decisions and so you can make them much more often.

Thats about getting to know yourself and your ability though. Thats not improving your ability, its simply learning how to use what you have.
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:20 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
s@int wrote:I read a book by Stjohn in which he was talking about how when you are young you make most of your decisions by instinct and the better player you are, the more times you will make the right decision. As you get older you start to understand why certain decisions are so much better and see more opportunities to make the important decisions and so you can make them much more often.

Thats about getting to know yourself and your ability though. Thats not improving your ability, its simply learning how to use what you have.

so by learning to learn to use  what they have, isnt that an improvement?  :D
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Postby maypaxvobiscum » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:23 pm

anyway, heres my list of 6 players whom i know who has improved.
1) kolo toure
2) diego forlan
3) jon obi mikel
4) mirko vucinic
5) glen johnson
6) tim cahill
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