Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:51 pm

To be fair to Owzat I don't think he was trying to prove who is better etc etc but just to show that Gerrard IS compatable with Masch. Although I think his stats are a little misleading as Masch has played many of those games with Lucas and as we all know if you play with Lucas you have an increased chance of winning and no chance of losing (in the league anyway).

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:55 pm

Very good players tend to be compatible and Gerrard and Mascherano are very good players

I disagree Stu there. I don't think the combinations of our three best midfielders are incompatible.

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:57 pm

You lot amaze me.. What are you moaning about. We have 3 world class midfielders, all playing well, the team looks more balanced now than any other time under Rafa and thats playing Kuyt on the right!!! We are joint top in both the league and tour champions league group and were still not happy...

You can look at individual positions as much as you like and compare player to player but that is not how Rafa plays football.

He looks at how the team performs as a group.

I am not a big fan of Kuyt at all, but in the current system his endless hard work, back tracking and getting in the way of the opposition have been an important reason in our succeeses this year.

Likewise, Alonso, Mascha and Gerrard have all played well as a unit, supply defensive and offensive balance.

For me the biggest improvement to the midfield has been Reira. Even in the last game against PSV where I think he had his quietest game, the fact he was on the pitch and out wide meant that he dragged full backs and their RM out to him creating more space for some of our players to use.

You don't just have to have the best players in every position to win the league. You need a team that know their roles and are disciplined enough to do them. I think that is what Rafa has acheived so far this year and probably for the first time since he arrived.

Mascha Gerrard, Gerrard Alonso.. who cares?

by **Owzat** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:57 pm

s@int wrote:To be fair to Owzat I don't think he was trying to prove who is better etc etc but just to show that Gerrard IS compatable with Masch. Although I think his stats are a little misleading as Masch has played many of those games with Lucas and as we all know if you play with Lucas you have an increased chance of winning and no chance of losing (in the league anyway).

I wasn't trying to prove anything, simply showing the respective stats for the results with various midfield combinations. It also gives an idea of what combinations are preferred.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:09 pm

The problem is mate people read stats the way they want to

Liverpool with Sissoko - P71 W46 D10 L15 F110 A57 (win 64.8%)
Liverpool with Alonso - P130 W78 D23 L29 F214 A108 (win 60.0%)

Which clearly shows we should have sold Alonso not Sissoko.......... or does it ?

by **Ben1988** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:11 pm

yeh... i loved momo

but you are right stats are statistically correct and factual but they dont tell the full story...

by **GYBS** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:16 pm

momo - the master of the tackle pass .

by **Bam** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:19 pm

Quite simple. Mascherano's brain is average. Gerrard's is decent. Alonso's is top class.

Gerrard doesn't always think about his position, Alonso does. Mascherano certainly doesn't. When playing togther they are ALWAYS flat. When Alonso and Gerrard play together they are very really flat and they only occassionally play square balls to each other in our half. Usually one is ten yards infront of the other and its usually Alonso that starts the higher up the pitch out of the two and Gerrard by passes him.

Mascherano doesn't give Gerrard the ball in the right area's and Gerrard doesn't make a midfield tick. He can only play at one pace and I am telling you now, had he played next to Mascherano the other day, instead of Alonso, the performance from them both would have been nowhere near the 90 minutes of domination we witnessed.

Alonso's ability to play the correct pass is so underated by our fans its a joke. His passes hurt teams, Gerrard's occassionally do and Mascherano's just simply don't. Alonso used the ball intelligently with vision and quality that Gerrard and Mascherano can only dream of having. Simple as that.

So why play Mascherano and Gerrard in the same midfield when they are effectively the same player only Gerrard's alot better going forward.

At the end of the day, if you can't see the lack of balance when Gerrard and Mascherano play together thats down to you. The team lacks creativety as it is and you're suggesting playing yet another ball winner in the middle rather than a passer with vision...

To say Gerrard doesnt always think about his position and that Mascherano certainly doesnt is a very blaze` statement to make. We have seen time and time again that Gerrard can produce disciplined displays in central midfield. We have also seen him in the past, do his Roy of the Rovers stuff while digging us out of the s.hit and getting critisism for lacking game intelligence and positional sense.
As long as he has some kind of cover in midfield whether it be Xabi or Mascha, he can time his runs if and when. When he does this and whether or not he realises he's doing it the whole team usually gain at least 10-15 yards in terratorial advantage as we they push on and support him. Mascha is usually able to offer support in just behind him, while Xabi's back there treading on Carra's toes. Mascha will offer presence at least and the opportunity to pass to, Alonso doesnt usually venture that far forward, the ball usually has to go back 20 yards, and any momentum in that attack withers away when Xabi shows for it usually, he does have the ability to make and dictate the tempo of a game, he does it from a withdrawn or deeper position. Some may say he is too disciplined in that regard, I put it down to the fact the Spainard doesnt have the pace to recover his position where as Mascherano does. And while he's at it, I think Mascha is the better defensive midfielder of the two ontop of that.

Mascherano doesnt offer any real creativity, but I also think its a bit of a myth around here that Alonso is some kind of creativity king. He isnt, he's intelligent plays some wonderful passes, pings the ball around and can of course play the odd 30 yarder to play Torres through on goal. He does dictate the tempo of the game much better than Mascha does, no doubt. But to call him creative, because he's able to play the odd hollywood ball through here and there is to one dimesional for my liking.

Gerrard epitomises creativity alot more than Alonso will, and while he may not have have the game intelligence that Alonso has and the static positional sense he compliments both of them well, but like I said IMO Mascherano has put that into practise alot better. Although Xabi looks as though he's turned the corner finally which is good to see.

Just one other thing, "Gerrard doesnt make the midfield tick" ? I'd go one step further and say he makes the team tick mate.

In saying all that, I'd personally keep the Alonso/Gerrard partnership for Sunday, Alonso has definately improved from last season and although he has been caught a few times in possesion in potentially high risk areas, I think in the main his alround game has improved. As they've both earned the right IMO as starters, and I dont think we need to disrupt anything there, but according to some rumours Rafa could be placing Mascherano back in the midfield for Sunday.

by **Number 9** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:19 pm

s@int wrote:The problem is mate people read stats the way they want to

Liverpool with Sissoko - P71 W46 D10 L15 F110 A57 (win 64.8%)
Liverpool with Alonso - P130 W78 D23 L29 F214 A108 (win 60.0%)

Which clearly shows we should have sold Alonso not Sissoko.......... or does it ?

Exactly most of em are a load of bollo.x and can be twisted or manipulated in a persons head to back up any particular notion or opinion!
Stats are unreliable and overused.Some people like them though,i guess it saves thinking and drawing your own opinions from what you see!

One that really fu'cks me off is the "assists" stat that always gets talked about....IMO assists are important but if there are 7 passes in a move that creates a goal,every pass in that move is as crucial to the goal as the one that sets it up.
If one pass goes wrong out of the 7,the goal wont happen!

Basically stats bore the hole off me,some of them are useful at times but the vast majority are uncalled for and misleading!
This is NOT a dig at Owzat BTW just my opinion on stats and their overuse!

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:20 pm

GYBS wrote:momo - the master of the tackle pass .

Like Kuyt ..... you either loved him or hated him. I loved him !(in a purely non sexual way )

by **Number 9** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:22 pm

s@int wrote:
GYBS wrote:momo - the master of the tackle pass .

Like Kuyt ..... you either loved him or hated him. I loved him !(in a purely non sexual way )

I loved him till he got his eye kicked in....then he went to shi't! :laugh:

by **GYBS** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:22 pm

always liked momo - did good things for us .

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:24 pm

Number 9 wrote:
s@int wrote:The problem is mate people read stats the way they want to

Liverpool with Sissoko - P71 W46 D10 L15 F110 A57 (win 64.8%)
Liverpool with Alonso - P130 W78 D23 L29 F214 A108 (win 60.0%)

Which clearly shows we should have sold Alonso not Sissoko.......... or does it ?

Exactly most of em are a load of bollo.x and can be twisted or manipulated in a persons head to back up any particular notion or opinion!
Stats are unreliable and overused.Some people like them though,i guess it saves thinking and drawing your own opinions from what you see!

One that really fu'cks me off is the "assists" stat that always gets talked about....IMO assists are important but if there are 7 passes in a move that creates a goal,every pass in that move is as crucial to the goal as the one that sets it up.
If one pass goes wrong out of the 7,the goal wont happen!

Basically stats bore the hole off me,some of them are useful at times but the vast majority are uncalled for and misleading!
This is NOT a dig at Owzat BTW just my opinion on stats and their overuse!

So by that argument, Torres scoring 30 plus goals shouldn't be used because if one pass had gone wrong he wouldn't have scored ?

by **Number 9** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:34 pm

s@int wrote:
Number 9 wrote:
s@int wrote:The problem is mate people read stats the way they want to

Liverpool with Sissoko - P71 W46 D10 L15 F110 A57 (win 64.8%)
Liverpool with Alonso - P130 W78 D23 L29 F214 A108 (win 60.0%)

Which clearly shows we should have sold Alonso not Sissoko.......... or does it ?

Exactly most of em are a load of bollo.x and can be twisted or manipulated in a persons head to back up any particular notion or opinion!
Stats are unreliable and overused.Some people like them though,i guess it saves thinking and drawing your own opinions from what you see!

One that really fu'cks me off is the "assists" stat that always gets talked about....IMO assists are important but if there are 7 passes in a move that creates a goal,every pass in that move is as crucial to the goal as the one that sets it up.
If one pass goes wrong out of the 7,the goal wont happen!

Basically stats bore the hole off me,some of them are useful at times but the vast majority are uncalled for and misleading!
This is NOT a dig at Owzat BTW just my opinion on stats and their overuse!

So by that argument, Torres scoring 30 plus goals shouldn't be used because if one pass had gone wrong he wouldn't have scored ?

Well it is a fact,if the move breaks down that assists the assistor that gives the final pass the goal wont happen!We may of course win the ball back and create another but that is another story!

Just not a big one for assist praising mate or stats as a whole!
As for goals scored stats,saying Torres scored 30 plus is one that does'nt lie.

by **GYBS** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:36 pm

stats can be useful and they can be interpreted anyway you want - the main stat is goals scored goals conceded and points won - thats the useful one for me

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Mascherano and gerrard - Can someone please explain this?

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