Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:38 am

Emerald Red wrote:
FernandoTorres9 wrote:The Truth is he has bought some !!! he needs to get more players like Torres and Mascherano

And Torres and Mascherano are a prime example of needing to have the cash at hand, big money, and acting quickly. Need I say that this big money for these two players came about through unorthodox circumstances, such as the loan taken out to pay for the club and Torres, and the deal in which Mascherano is to be paid off eventually via Rafa's CL exploits and the sale of Momo. It's easy to say he's bought some sh*t when he's been shopping in Tescos for a few seasons. Give him real money and the means to seal a deal quickly and see who we get and where we end up with under Rafa. Until this happens, I'll never be satisfied. Of course, people will now state about the reputed 150 million debate no doubt.

Agger, Reina, Skrtel...three prime examples of why 20 million isn't required to find a top class player. (probably me being picky, because I know to find "established" world stars, money has to be spent)

by **Rush Job** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:04 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
FernandoTorres9 wrote:The Truth is he has bought some !!! he needs to get more players like Torres and Mascherano

And Torres and Mascherano are a prime example of needing to have the cash at hand, big money, and acting quickly. Need I say that this big money for these two players came about through unorthodox circumstances, such as the loan taken out to pay for the club and Torres, and the deal in which Mascherano is to be paid off eventually via Rafa's CL exploits and the sale of Momo. It's easy to say he's bought some sh*t when he's been shopping in Tescos for a few seasons. Give him real money and the means to seal a deal quickly and see who we get and where we end up with under Rafa. Until this happens, I'll never be satisfied. Of course, people will now state about the reputed 150 million debate no doubt.

Agger, Reina, Skrtel...three prime examples of why 20 million isn't required to find a top class player. (probably me being picky, because I know to find "established" world stars, money has to be spent)

Yes but to sign a player who can take you up a level like Torres you are looking at atleast 20ml. Football is so well scouted these days clubs know when they have something special or even someone who could be like Walcot a few years back they dont let go easy.That said we do have a manager who is great at finding quality young players in the 5 to 10 bracket who after a season for us are well and truely in the 20+ bracket. For this he should get more praise than he does thats for sure. :nod

by **bigmick** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:16 am

Rush Job wrote:That said we do have a manager who is great at finding quality young players in the 5 to 10 bracket who after a season for us are well and truely in the 20+ bracket. For this he should get more praise than he does thats for sure.

At the risk of being called every c... under the sun you just cheered me up with this post. Players in the 5-10 mill bracket who after a season with us are well and truly in the 20 mill plus bracket. A league challenge must be absolutely imminent, and we'll be winning the Champions League "every other year".

Are they in the reserves or the youth team or something cos I've missed em, who are we talking about here?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:17 am

Rush Job wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
FernandoTorres9 wrote:The Truth is he has bought some !!! he needs to get more players like Torres and Mascherano

And Torres and Mascherano are a prime example of needing to have the cash at hand, big money, and acting quickly. Need I say that this big money for these two players came about through unorthodox circumstances, such as the loan taken out to pay for the club and Torres, and the deal in which Mascherano is to be paid off eventually via Rafa's CL exploits and the sale of Momo. It's easy to say he's bought some sh*t when he's been shopping in Tescos for a few seasons. Give him real money and the means to seal a deal quickly and see who we get and where we end up with under Rafa. Until this happens, I'll never be satisfied. Of course, people will now state about the reputed 150 million debate no doubt.

Agger, Reina, Skrtel...three prime examples of why 20 million isn't required to find a top class player. (probably me being picky, because I know to find "established" world stars, money has to be spent)

Yes but to sign a player who can take you up a level like Torres you are looking at atleast 20ml. Football is so well scouted these days clubs know when they have something special or even someone who could be like Walcot a few years back they dont let go easy.That said we do have a manager who is great at finding quality young players in the 5 to 10 bracket who after a season for us are well and truely in the 20+ bracket. For this he should get more praise than he does thats for sure.

Agreed mate. Benitez has found some great players, none more than Agger IMO. I think my preception of Benitez' transfers are "potentional" His transfers don't fill me with much yes but plenty of maybe.

I must admit I didn't know much about Torres, and after reading the likes of Sabre's opinion of him it didn't fill me with belief. I use Sabre here because he would of seen Torres week in week out, alot more than I would. So although Torres has proven to be world class, I think he was another who came under the bracket of "maybe" Same with Mascherano, I didn't know much about him, seen West Ham sign and never play him so didn't see why we wanted him, so again he was more a "no" than "maybe". Thankfully he's proved me wrong even with just the one goal . :laugh:

. But other than Morientes (who was a toal flop and one I never wanted in the first place) I can't think of many established world stars who Benitez has bought.

So again, I think there's a lot of caution over every signing Benitez makes. He does sign a lot of "potentional" rather than established world stars. Whether it's down to money, I don't know.

by **Thingy** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:34 am

I didnt actually say we could get it, I was saying merely breaking things down of what we could earn. Your right GBJH funds will go towards debt etc. But we could have as you say 50 m. Thinkin of it unrealisitcally maybe. I know people dont like saying what we could get for a certain player, but by doing it in this case it would give us a clearer picture of how much we could spend.

Crouch - 8 million
Finnan - 2 million
Riise - 5 millon
Alonso- 15 million
Pennnant / Benayoun - 5 million - 10 million
Voronin -1 million.

Theres 30 to 40 million there, and add that too 30 -35 million off the owners, thats 60 to 70 million or so. Any other money from Cl final ect if we were to get it, its not too far off 80 million. I doubt it, but would you rather be pessimstically gloomy, or unrealisically optimistic?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:42 am

Like I said Thingy, we could get up to 50 million mark, if we allow a few big names to go. Alonso and Crouch (both who I think will leave this summer) are big names. Even Riise and Finnan, are bigger names than what we have, Arbeloa and Aurelio.

Problem is we're only guessing at this point. We don't know how much (if any) the yanks (or DIC) will give Benitez (or the next manager) to spend. There's so much uncertainty surround the club and it's finicial state at the minute, I think we're best leaving this until the summer when we have some more clarity on the situation.

by **Thingy** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:48 am

Then again though, im sure we could get 20 million for Kuyt

by **Rush Job** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:55 am

bigmick wrote:
Rush Job wrote:That said we do have a manager who is great at finding quality young players in the 5 to 10 bracket who after a season for us are well and truely in the 20+ bracket. For this he should get more praise than he does thats for sure.

At the risk of being called every c... under the sun you just cheered me up with this post. Players in the 5-10 mill bracket who after a season with us are well and truly in the 20 mill plus bracket. A league challenge must be absolutely imminent, and we'll be winning the Champions League "every other year".

Are they in the reserves or the youth team or something cos I've missed em, who are we talking about here?

Agger, Alonso (bought at the high end), Reina, pritty sure by the end of next season Skrtle, if Lucas kicks on with us and now with Brasil 20mil would be going rate. Crouch wouldnt be too far off. Im glad it makes you happy you should act it more instead of trying to pick fault.
And wtf with this " risk of being called every c... under the sun" go on lad tell me what ive called ya in the past??? There`ll come a day though your starting to p!ss me off going on as if IVE got some kind of problem and im "abusive".

by **bigmick** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:58 am

Yeah I'm genuinely nonplussed by this "bought for 5-10 mill, now worth 20 plus" line. Maybe it's Masherano? but I thought he was more than ten mill though (although I prepare to be corrected). I honestly can't think of anyone else, I suppose Lucas may become possibly a 20 million pound player, I hope he does. Reina is a good keeper but they don't fetch 20 million squids these days, and ditto Agger, definately worth more than we paid for him, perhaps double or more but nowhere near 20 mill I wouldn't have thought. Babel was over 10 million in the first place, Alonso wouldn't fetch that and I know basically nothing about the kids and reserves so couldn't comment, but surely none are worth 20 million quid.

Anyways no doubt at some point it'll all come out in the wash.

by **bigmick** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:00 am

Sorry we had crossover there, (and we're probably going to get it again now I should think

). We'll just have to differ again as I don't currently think any of the players you've mentioned would fetch 20 million quid on the transfer market.

by **Rush Job** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:24 am

bigmick wrote:Yeah I'm genuinely nonplussed by this "bought for 5-10 mill, now worth 20 plus" line. Maybe it's Masherano? but I thought he was more than ten mill though (although I prepare to be corrected). I honestly can't think of anyone else, I suppose Lucas may become possibly a 20 million pound player, I hope he does. Reina is a good keeper but they don't fetch 20 million squids these days, and ditto Agger, definately worth more than we paid for him, perhaps double or more but nowhere near 20 mill I wouldn't have thought. Babel was over 10 million in the first place, Alonso wouldn't fetch that and I know basically nothing about the kids and reserves so couldn't comment, but surely none are worth 20 million quid.

Anyways no doubt at some point it'll all come out in the wash.

It was a throw away line that you had to pick on, its all reletive anyway. But Agger is deffo 20 plus give him time to come back you`ll see, great defensively good in the air, great with the ball, garrantees goals and this Sktle looks like going the same way they have true quality and that costs.
Put it this way Rafa signs alot of players who almost instantly go up in cost, now you must atleast agree with that.

by **bigmick** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:36 am

Rush Job wrote:But Agger is deffo 20 plus give him time to come back you`ll see, great defensively good in the air, great with the ball, garrantees goals and this Sktle looks like going the same way they have true quality and that costs.
Put it this way Rafa signs alot of players who almost instantly go up in cost, now you must atleast agree with that.

Aggers a top centre half in my opinion, probably the second best footballing centre half in the league and he'll only get better once he comes back. I've liked him since day one and at 5 million he was an absolute steal. I don't think you'd get twenty for him but I do think he'd be comfortably into double figures.

Skyrtel I'm not convinced by just yet but he has quality there's no doubt about it. He has pace, is strong in the tackle and strangely for a centre half seems really quite good at not just carrying the ball, but actually dribbling with it

He does have a tendancy to ball-watch and be magnetised towards the ball, but he's young and could improve. I'm not as convinced as you are by him but I may become that given time.

As for your last sentence, I 100% agree with that. I've always said that Rafa's record in the transfer market is by and large excellent. Of his bigger buys, only Kuyt and Morientes haven't really worked. Now in the case of Kuyt, while he'll never make a striker at Liverpool he is at least doing a good job wide on the right so he is redeeming the decision to siogn him somewhat. Morientes was of course a bit of a flop, but everyone including me thought it was a great signing and he's since gone back to Spain and done well so you cna hardly blame the manager for that.

Reina was a great signing and a steal, as were Agger and Alonso, while Torres could very well be worth twice what we paid for him as well if anybody could actually afford that. My one gripe with Rafa on transfers has been the tendency to buy "options" and "possibilities" as opposed to making the first team stronger.

I have though ALWAYS said that Rafa has been sound in the transfer market, so there's nothing new from me here.

by **Rush Job** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:14 am

bigmick wrote:
Rush Job wrote:But Agger is deffo 20 plus give him time to come back you`ll see, great defensively good in the air, great with the ball, garrantees goals and this Sktle looks like going the same way they have true quality and that costs.
Put it this way Rafa signs alot of players who almost instantly go up in cost, now you must atleast agree with that.

Aggers a top centre half in my opinion, probably the second best footballing centre half in the league and he'll only get better once he comes back. I've liked him since day one and at 5 million he was an absolute steal. I don't think you'd get twenty for him but I do think he'd be comfortably into double figures.

Skyrtel I'm not convinced by just yet but he has quality there's no doubt about it. He has pace, is strong in the tackle and strangely for a centre half seems really quite good at not just carrying the ball, but actually dribbling with it He does have a tendancy to ball-watch and be magnetised towards the ball, but he's young and could improve. I'm not as convinced as you are by him but I may become that given time.

As for your last sentence, I 100% agree with that. I've always said that Rafa's record in the transfer market is by and large excellent. Of his bigger buys, only Kuyt and Morientes haven't really worked. Now in the case of Kuyt, while he'll never make a striker at Liverpool he is at least doing a good job wide on the right so he is redeeming the decision to siogn him somewhat. Morientes was of course a bit of a flop, but everyone including me thought it was a great signing and he's since gone back to Spain and done well so you cna hardly blame the manager for that.

Reina was a great signing and a steal, as were Agger and Alonso, while Torres could very well be worth twice what we paid for him as well if anybody could actually afford that. My one gripe with Rafa on transfers has been the tendency to buy "options" and "possibilities" as opposed to making the first team stronger.

I have though ALWAYS said that Rafa has been sound in the transfer market, so there's nothing new from me here.

But can you not see at first he needed a working squad of players so he needed "options" as he put it he really just needed a bit of depth after a clear out, but look at the players brought in this last year Torres, Mash going back slightly further Agger, sktle ( think of some of the games he`s helped us though already, talk about deep end ) even Lucas and Babbel, surely thats Rafa strenghtning the first team no?
Idealy for me we still need full backs, a right back a least, whos comfortable coming forward and supplying service, a top quality wide player and a second striker before we are anywhere near Utd imo. But at the rate Rafa`s been bringing in quality and with the lure of a CL medal theres no reason to think (given the chance by the c.nts) we cant bring in another 3 - 4 players to fill those gaps, and beleve me when i say there is a few gems in the reserves ( thats acturally like a youth XL now ) that will be coming though, another area that Rafa has excelled in, top quality youth. You have already seen Plessis and Insua, Nemeth looks like some prospect wont be long till you see him score his first goal im sure.
Your missing out not having a look at the ressies and youth, very, very impressive its all totally geared towards success and the players that dont make it for us will be sold for tidy little sums, look at Guthrie been easy one of Boltons best players. We will see the beifits of Rafa`s youth pollicy over the coming season or two.

by **Owzat** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:15 am

bigmick wrote:I have though ALWAYS said that Rafa has been sound in the transfer market, so there's nothing new from me here.

I'd say some are good signings, maybe most, but there are some that seem a lot of money for not a lot of class. That we can all name up to ten players who could leave in the summer, and only two or three are not his signings, says a lot. Even seven is nearly a third of the first team squad.

And thinking about that list of mancs earlier, the average joes in their squad, they are the kind of players the mancs will sell when they sign someone class. No way are any of them good enough that a fully fit manc squad would see them make the XI for an important game. And ex-manc players are always in high demand by other clubs, doesn't mean they are any good. In some cases they are Djemba Djembas or Verons, disappear down divisions or simply clutter up a side like Sunderland with mediocrity.

by **grayghost** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:00 pm

What i think is 1 of Rafa biggest faults is when he buys a player who is not at the level this club needs it takes him far to long to realise it. Or maybe he does but is to stuborn to admit it.

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