Liverpool FC Forum

by **heimdall** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:14 am

First off I have to say that I am over the moon with the win, what a great feeling when that penalty went in, but we made it so difficult for ourselves with that crazy formation, I cannot understand what Rafa was thinking, for two matches we have matched Arsenal playing a 4-5-1 at the emirates then we get them back to our place we go insane playing a 4-4-2 with Gerrard out of position and a completley useless Alonso, why on earth was Alonso not subbed he was shocking last night!
Torres was very quiet until his goal but then he hardly got any service, gerrard played well and Kuyt had probably the best game I have seen him play, to get headbutted like that and just get up and carry on playing was incredible, not many players would do that, they'd be on the ground rolling around for hours!

Still I wasn't happy with Rafa's selection and we were quite fortunate to get through in that we nicked the penalty which Arsenal should have had last week.
If I was a gooner today I would be so p1ssed off but luckily I'm not :wwww

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:20 am

the shape was all wrong at the start for me. when i heard the news that gerrard was starting on the left in a 4-4-2 i couldn't believe it. ok the lad can play anywhere but in a game of this magnitude you'd want your best players on the ball as much as possible and obviously gerrard would not be able to affect the game as much from that position.

the first half an hour was case in point. arsenal were superb and just overran us with their extra man in midfield. nobody was picking up hleb at all, and when someone did get onto him, that left flamini or fabregas free. at the end of that period we were lucky to only be one down if i'm honest.

by **Sabre** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:58 am

Bad Bob wrote:I couldn't make out what kind of system we were playing at all TBPH, mate. I know the personnel suggested 4-4-2 but it looked more like another free role for Gerrard after initially lining up on the left. Anyone have a sense of what the formation really was?

First of all, the point of the thread is not to discuss about Rafa seeing the light, I didn't know how to pick a title for the thread and used that expression that honestly I take with a pinch of salt, because it sounds religious, almost mystical in my own language.

I think we did start playing two players in the striker role upfront mate. Yes, Gerrard roamed in the middle as his role was a "inner" left midfielder, not winger, and that's why Fabio Aurelio was fixed to his defensive position most of the time. IMHO we played two strikers and as a result we had a man less in the midfield, I just wasn't expecting that and I really suffered in the first 30 minutes.

Then things changed, we scored in our first real chance, our attitude or mood changed, we started pressing very well (a must if you want to play two strikers) and Arsenal wasn't as comfortable. To be perfectly honest I also think that Arsenal missed Flamini from the moment they lost him, with Silva Adebayor was more isolated all of a sudden (and always thanks to our incredible pressure aswell).

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:06 pm

Gerrard will almost certainly be moved back to supporting Torres come the semi final.

He's one yellow away from a suspension so playing him in that position means he doesn't have to put his foot in as much and risk getting booked.

by **Toffeehater** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:07 pm

maguskwt wrote:I'm not gonna say whether rafa got it right or wrong with starting 4-4-2 for this game... because we did win the match so there seems to be credibility of the way he employed the tactics...

However I will say why I didn't like it and why we shouldn't play 4-4-2 with that specific personnel set up. IMO it was really a 4-4-2 with gerrard starting on the left and Crouch and Torres up front.

The first reason is I never liked Crouch/Torres partnership... they like to go for the same ball they like to occupy the same space... that means if one is doing that the other becomes less than effective... for long stretches we rarely see anything from the 2 until Torres goal, which to be fair both got involved. Alos the quick one-twos that torres and gerrard play are absent with torres and crouch.

second reason was specific to yesterday's game. Mascherano and Alonso were put under alot of pressure they were literally pinned back... leaving a vacuum of space in the whole 2/3 area of the field... both crouch and torres were somehow not helping out the link up. So after we went down 1-0, what did Gerrard do? He tried to drift in to provide the much needed link up play. But by doing so we don't have a left winger anymore and Crouch had also become a bystander... he didn't know what to do and was drifting left and center. Stevie's decision was good in spirit but tactically not too good. IMO our formation was very unbalanced during that period before Sami equalised and I thought that we wouldn't make it. Thank God for Sami's equaliser the balanced was restored to the formation. After the break, rafa seemed to have told the team to try to be more disciplined about the formation and we seemed more balanced. We played much much better and with fluency when babel came on and reverted to 4-2-3-1... the reason I like this formation is that everyone has a role in it and no one is a passenger. It is a much more effective formation in the current set up. If we wanna play 4-4-2 and be effective, we gotta play real wingers and move Gerrad back to the middle... we also need a better second striker...

Good post lad

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:11 pm

well in the three games against Arsenal in the last week we've played 4-2-3-1 with Torres up top and drawn 1-1. We've played 4-2-3-1 with Crouch up top and drawn 1-1. We've played 4-4-2 with Crouch and Torres up front and won 4-2.

I'd take 4-4-2 basing it on that.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:14 pm

stmichael wrote:Gerrard will almost certainly be moved back to supporting Torres come the semi final.

He's one yellow away from a suspension so playing him in that position means he doesn't have to put his foot in as much and risk getting booked.

Agree. I think last night was a bit of a one off and it came about for three reasons:

1) Rafa felt we would need to score, as 0-0 against them was always going to be a big ask. Hence the two strikers.

2) Crouch gives them problems and that works to our advantage

3) It might trip them up, since they would certainly expect us to stick to the 4-2-3-1.

by **bigmick** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 12:14 pm

I've seen the game twice now and the formational change didn't really work for me. I've got absolutely nothing against us playing 4-4-2 per se (I would possibly even prefer it long term) but asking Gerrard to play on the left takes him out of the game. Equaly people will say I'm talking b0ll0cks as we won the game which is fair enough I suppose, but we won it (deservedly in the end I thought) not because of the team changes, but because we quite simply out-willed them. llied to that was the fact that senderos was cruelly exposed for the first two goals, and we got a fairly dodgy penalty. All in all though, an absolutely fantastic football match (I didn't see it Live I was on plane to Nelson). The game was a rarity in that I could watch it with great interest despite already knowing the result.

Briefly my observations (and I haven't read all the views, maybe it's a New Zealand thing but the sites not been loading up on the screen so sorry if I'm repeating what anybody else has said). I thought although he was exposed a bit, Reina should have done much better for the first goal. Diaby should have been picked up by Alonso who cleared and then stood admiring it, realising too late with the despairing lunge, but Pepe has to save that.

Sami and Skyrtel were very good all night, and despite my repeated reservations about Skyrtel he is putting in some good performances. The fact he was on the pitch at all was instrumental in us defending much higher in the second half. Allied to the fact we asked Crouch to drop into midfield when we didn't have the ball, this "compression" of the play was the main factor in us supressing their fluidity of the first half. IMHo for the first half hour at least, we were chasing shadows.

Hyppia's header was excellent for the goal, although Senderos's defending was awaful. It was equally bad for Torrers's goal, although it was a wonderful piece of skill, and it was nice to see Crouch get the flick on. I didn't think he did much (Crouch) other than put lots of effort in, but perhaps when you consider that one fo the flanks was occupied by a bloke who is never going to cross it with his left foot, it's not that surprising.

Walcotts run for their second was excellent, and he looks like he's developing into a player. How on earth Masherano went through the game and didn't get booked is a miracle

he must have done three bookable challenges at least. Babel did well when he came on, scoring one and getting the penalty, although of I don't actually think it was one. Along with Hlebs one down there, they can probably be justified in feeling hard done by.

I thought Kuyt did well again, and particularly for not getting disheartened on the odd occasion his deficiencies were exposed. The one where that Diaby bloke just turned and left him chasing air being a prime example. Gerrard i thought was very poor, and I hope for all our sakes we can now conclude that he can't play on the left. I liked aurelio and thought he did well.

All in all though, a brilliant match and well done to the players and the manager for pulling it out of the fire.

by **maguskwt** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:20 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:well in the three games against Arsenal in the last week we've played 4-2-3-1 with Torres up top and drawn 1-1. We've played 4-2-3-1 with Crouch up top and drawn 1-1. We've played 4-4-2 with Crouch and Torres up front and won 4-2.

I'd take 4-4-2 basing it on that.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:23 pm

bigmick wrote:I've seen the game twice now and the formational change didn't really work for me. I've got absolutely nothing against us playing 4-4-2 per se (I would possibly even prefer it long term) but asking Gerrard to play on the left takes him out of the game. Equaly people will say I'm talking b0ll0cks as we won the game which is fair enough I suppose, but we won it (deservedly in the end I thought) not because of the team changes, but because we quite simply out-willed them. llied to that was the fact that senderos was cruelly exposed for the first two goals, and we got a fairly dodgy penalty. All in all though, an absolutely fantastic football match (I didn't see it Live I was on plane to Nelson). The game was a rarity in that I could watch it with great interest despite already knowing the result.

Briefly my observations (and I haven't read all the views, maybe it's a New Zealand thing but the sites not been loading up on the screen so sorry if I'm repeating what anybody else has said). I thought although he was exposed a bit, Reina should have done much better for the first goal. Diaby should have been picked up by Alonso who cleared and then stood admiring it, realising too late with the despairing lunge, but Pepe has to save that.

Sami and Skyrtel were very good all night, and despite my repeated reservations about Skyrtel he is putting in some good performances. The fact he was on the pitch at all was instrumental in us defending much higher in the second half. Allied to the fact we asked Crouch to drop into midfield when we didn't have the ball, this "compression" of the play was the main factor in us supressing their fluidity of the first half. IMHo for the first half hour at least, we were chasing shadows.

Hyppia's header was excellent for the goal, although Senderos's defending was awaful. It was equally bad for Torrers's goal, although it was a wonderful piece of skill, and it was nice to see Crouch get the flick on. I didn't think he did much (Crouch) other than put lots of effort in, but perhaps when you consider that one fo the flanks was occupied by a bloke who is never going to cross it with his left foot, it's not that surprising.

Walcotts run for their second was excellent, and he looks like he's developing into a player. How on earth Masherano went through the game and didn't get booked is a miracle he must have done three bookable challenges at least. Babel did well when he came on, scoring one and getting the penalty, although of I don't actually think it was one. Along with Hlebs one down there, they can probably be justified in feeling hard done by.

I thought Kuyt did well again, and particularly for not getting disheartened on the odd occasion his deficiencies were exposed. The one where that Diaby bloke just turned and left him chasing air being a prime example. Gerrard i thought was very poor, and I hope for all our sakes we can now conclude that he can't play on the left. I liked aurelio and thought he did well.

All in all though, a brilliant match and well done to the players and the manager for pulling it out of the fire.

Top post mate, and I agree with everything you said apart from the penalty. I thought it was a definite penalty. Fabregas had a grab at Babel and unbalanced him and then Toure finished the job. Penalty!

I prefer 4-4-2 but not when its at the expense of our best player, and would have preferred a central pairing of Masch and Gerrard with Babel or Riise on the left if we were to play 4-4-2. Still it all worked out in the end so I am not complaining.

by **Ace Ventura** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:28 pm

s@int wrote:Top post mate, and I agree with everything you said apart from the penalty. I thought it was a definite penalty. Fabregas had a grab at Babel and unbalanced him and then Toure finished the job. Penalty!

I prefer 4-4-2 but not when its at the expense of our best player, and would have preferred a central pairing of Masch and Gerrard with Babel or Riise on the left if we were to play 4-4-2. Still it all worked out in the end so I am not complaining.

I agree about the penalty, and if you get the chance to watch it again watch Toure's face the split second after he pulls him back, he sort of grimaces as if he realises he made a major mistake.

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:39 pm

When I first heard crouch was playing I thought, torres on the bench then. Sounded ok, after all crouch did do well at the weekend. Then I saw it was 4-4-2 with crouch and torres and wondered, with gerrard on the left, has crouch in order that he signs a new contract asked rafa that he plays more games? including the remaining champs league games. Rafa wants him to stay, and so to get him to sign a new contract he has to give him the games to convince him. I also noticed when he was subbed yesterday he gave a litte wave to the crowd before applauding them.

That or he changed the line up so we all get it wrong on fantasy rafa !

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:07 pm

Kharhaz wrote:When I first heard crouch was playing I thought, torres on the bench then. Sounded ok, after all crouch did do well at the weekend. Then I saw it was 4-4-2 with crouch and torres and wondered, with gerrard on the left, has crouch in order that he signs a new contract asked rafa that he plays more games? including the remaining champs league games. Rafa wants him to stay, and so to get him to sign a new contract he has to give him the games to convince him. I also noticed when he was subbed yesterday he gave a litte wave to the crowd before applauding them.

That or he changed the line up so we all get it wrong on fantasy rafa !

Sorry, mate, but there is no way in hell that Rafa would play him just because Crouch made a fuss. He played because he causes Arsenal trouble and because Rafa had a mind to throw them a curveball.

by **JoeTerp** » Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:02 pm

still don't see why Gerrard wasn't on the right and kuyt (or riise) on the left in a 4-4-2

by **LFC2007** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:18 am

In the opening 20 minutes or so I thought we needed to change it completely or else they might've got another. Gerrard drifted into the middle and we were exposed down the left-flank. This meant that Alonso/Mascherano had to come across to press Arsenal when they came over to the left flank, effectively stretching us and allowing them more space in the centre to pass in between us. Thankfully Sami's goal came at just the right time as it completely altered the flow of the game. We had just about managed to stake a foothold in the match, increasing our possession through sheer hard work and getting Carra and Kuyt in very encouraging positions down the right. The goal consolidated this foothold - psychologically we imposed ourselves through our will, courage and determination to seize control of the game. We then controlled the game for a very long period i.e. up until Torres scored, they controlled it after Torres scored, that was inevitable to a certain extent given the psychological change between the two teams i.e. We needed to hang on to our lead, Arsenal needed to score desperately in order to keep their season alive.

First of all, the point of the thread is not to discuss about Rafa seeing the light, I didn't know how to pick a title for the thread and used that expression that honestly I take with a pinch of salt, because it sounds religious, almost mystical in my own language.

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