Liverpool FC Forum

s@int wrote:

redtrader74 wrote:

s@int wrote:

become a Club that USED to win things

Thats what we are mate.....we haven't won anything since 2006 and we are not likely to in the forseeable future unless changes are made.

2 years is nothing, because i can see a time when it will become 10 years. Chopping and changing manager every season or two will become our way soon if we are not careful. We will spiral into debt and lose all our top players, it is very likely, and IMO i think supporting the man in charge and at least allowing him a clear season with all the players he has assembled and without all the sh!t is what is best for the Club.

The alternative i would accept (see i'm not in love with Rafa) is Mourinho, but for the life of me i can't see it, there are 350M reasons why he won't want to come here.

I think we are more likely to lose all our best players if we continue as we are mate. Do you think the players are happy never even mounting a challenge year after year in the league, and going out of cups in such a disgracefull fashion.

4 seasons is long enough to expect to see some progress. Yes we have seen a little.... in his first season we went out to Burnley and finished 5, this season it was Barnsley and hopefully 4th if we play out of our skins. 

Progress?

redtrader74 wrote:

s@int wrote:

redtrader74 wrote:

s@int wrote:

become a Club that USED to win things

Thats what we are mate.....we haven't won anything since 2006 and we are not likely to in the forseeable future unless changes are made.

2 years is nothing, because i can see a time when it will become 10 years. Chopping and changing manager every season or two will become our way soon if we are not careful. We will spiral into debt and lose all our top players, it is very likely, and IMO i think supporting the man in charge and at least allowing him a clear season with all the players he has assembled and without all the sh!t is what is best for the Club.

The alternative i would accept (see i'm not in love with Rafa) is Mourinho, but for the life of me i can't see it, there are 350M reasons why he won't want to come here.

I think we are more likely to lose all our best players if we continue as we are mate. Do you think the players are happy never even mounting a challenge year after year in the league, and going out of cups in such a disgracefull fashion.

4 seasons is long enough to expect to see some progress. Yes we have seen a little.... in his first season we went out to Burnley and finished 5, this season it was Barnsley and hopefully 4th if we play out of our skins. 

Progress?

Well 6 months ago they were happy to sign long term contracts, and we were considered a good enough prospect for Torres to sign for us. There was at least some belief for the manager and his methods then. Had they wanted the players in question would probably have the pick of any of the top clubs in Europe.

Feeney wrote:I've become hugely deflated and uninspired by what is going happening on the pitch - almost to the point were I can't be bothered to debate the point anymore as our actions are embarassing enough without me trying to defend or rebuke comments laid against Liverpool. However, your post has been the first one that has made me take notice (and not been a part of an ongoing arguement on here!) so I felt the need to exercise my right to reply.

While I have been pretty much pro-Benitez, time after time he is heaping more and more pressure on himself, the players and the club and much of it is needless. Take yesterday's game as an example. Whereas I agree that the side that was put out was good enough to beat Barnsley, I saw it as a hugely missed opportunity ahead of the Inter game. What better way to get your players up for the forthcoming game (as if, that would be needed anyway - its Inter, for fecks sake) than to play your best 11, tell them to go out and do what they do best and produce a commanding and emphatic performance with a decent scoreline. Bring the better lads off with half an hour to go when the jobs done, then bring on Inter, all fired up and hungry for goals once more.

Yesterday's game highlighted a huge flaw in not only our thinking at times, but also Benitez's. The side put out was good enough to beat Barnsley, but yet didn't. Where have I heard that before after a poor performance to say, Luton, Reading etc? Surely by now, everyone can see that the squad as a whole simply isn't up to the task of beating the team put in front of them, including Benitez. So why persist?

Which moves onto the issue of rotation. Theoretically, it is a good idea and is beneficial to the whole rather than the individual. However, in England at least, the idea doesn't work. In the English League, players seem to have a different mentality than on the continent were our teams want game after game after game and can't get enough. Now, I know majority of our squad are foreign nationals, but this mentality is infectious from the bigger, English players such as Gerrard, Carra and Crouch. It is now categorically clear that rotation to keep players fit for the latter half of the season is rubbish (I believe a stat had shown that we actually got less points in the latter half of the season in the last 2 seasons) as winning games and being in the hunt for the bigger prizes is motivation enough to play more games. Who's going to be up for an away game to Fulham in April when the league is beyond you, fourth place or not?

Right, where am I going with this?    Oh yes, feeling uninspired by our teams current plight. I'm in agreeance (as i'm sure everyone is) that this season has simply imploded before our eyes within the space of 3 months and at present is looking like being left in tatters. I'm deeply concerned that this season is going to get worse before it gets better and even in DIC do come n and 'save' the club, this won't have a bearing on how the players are playing or are being coached by Benitez.

I'm a fan - I feel uninspired, deflated, embarassed, ashamed (christ, I paid £34 for the pleasure of seeing us play against Marseille, its not hard to see why) - that's me. Imagine how the players must be feeling, wondering if such and such will play, despite them being sh!t all season, or wondering where on the pitch he might be deployed, be it full back (Carra), up front (Gerrard) or wherever they can fit (Lucas)? The fight seems to have extinguished from our players and its catching on with the fans. Maybe it has gone too far already, but unless Benitez begins to realise the flaws in himself and his methods, I can't see Montse getting a new watch anytime soon, least not from the paypacket of her husbands current employers. 

Bad Bob wrote:

lakes10 wrote:NANNY, there are two camps when it comes to Rafa.

camp one

happy to just sit back and win the fa cup or CL every few years and do nothing in the prem.

Camp two

Play good football each week, close the cap on the top teams, try to win the Prem at all cost, fa cup and CL will come in time but No 1 is the prem.



i am in camp two,
Rafa has done nothing in the prem in 4 years, how many points have we takem from the top 3 in the pream in the last 4 years?

say's it realy.

No, no, no, mate...that's not it at all.  There are two camps but it shakes out like this:

Camp One still has faith in Rafa

Camp Two doesn't

What that means is that those of us in Camp One still feel that, despite mounting evidence to the contrary (I freely admit), Rafa has the capacity to win us the league.  We don't just want cup success and the only reason we refer to the cups is because, to us, they demonstrate that Rafa can get the best out of players and put silverware in the cabinet.  To us in Camp One, those cups have cemented our faith in the man and we are prepared to be a bit more patient with him in the hopes that he'll bring us the league.

For those of you in Camp Two, it seems clear that you have lost that faith in the man.  A very few of you never had it in the first place and that's your prerogative.  Many of you, however, did have tremendous faith in the man at one point but have now decided that he's no longer up to the task of bringing us the league.  Again, that's your prerogative.  As I've admitted, you've got mounting evidence on your side as well as mounting backing from fellow supporters.  I'd even go so far as to say that you will almost certainly get your wish because I expect Rafa will be off, one way or the other, by season's end at the latest.

To answer Mick's initial question, IMO, as a debate, this "Rafa - stay or go?" discussion is over.  We in Camp One will never convince you in Camp Two that you're wrong at this stage (and vice versa, to be fair).  You refute any evidence we might wish to present and you clearly don't share the faith that underlies it all for us, so what's the point in arguing about it?  That's why a lot of us are much quieter these days: we can't be a.rsed debating the issue when so many minds are already made up.  I just hope that we can keep any discussion that arises civil.  This place has already seen enough flame wars in the past few months.

s@int wrote:

redtrader74 wrote:

s@int wrote:

redtrader74 wrote:

s@int wrote:

become a Club that USED to win things

Thats what we are mate.....we haven't won anything since 2006 and we are not likely to in the forseeable future unless changes are made.

2 years is nothing, because i can see a time when it will become 10 years. Chopping and changing manager every season or two will become our way soon if we are not careful. We will spiral into debt and lose all our top players, it is very likely, and IMO i think supporting the man in charge and at least allowing him a clear season with all the players he has assembled and without all the sh!t is what is best for the Club.

The alternative i would accept (see i'm not in love with Rafa) is Mourinho, but for the life of me i can't see it, there are 350M reasons why he won't want to come here.

I think we are more likely to lose all our best players if we continue as we are mate. Do you think the players are happy never even mounting a challenge year after year in the league, and going out of cups in such a disgracefull fashion.

4 seasons is long enough to expect to see some progress. Yes we have seen a little.... in his first season we went out to Burnley and finished 5, this season it was Barnsley and hopefully 4th if we play out of our skins. 

Progress?

Well 6 months ago they were happy to sign long term contracts, and we were considered a good enough prospect for Torres to sign for us. There was at least some belief for the manager and his methods then. Had they wanted the players in question would probably have the pick of any of the top clubs in Europe.

Like us they all thought we had the team to win (or challenge ) for the title. Like us they were badly wrong. I don't think its any surprise that Alonso and Reina are now "homesick", Torres is already talking about how he would like to play for Milan etc etc.

LFC2007 wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:

lakes10 wrote:NANNY, there are two camps when it comes to Rafa.

camp one

happy to just sit back and win the fa cup or CL every few years and do nothing in the prem.

Camp two

Play good football each week, close the cap on the top teams, try to win the Prem at all cost, fa cup and CL will come in time but No 1 is the prem.



i am in camp two,
Rafa has done nothing in the prem in 4 years, how many points have we takem from the top 3 in the pream in the last 4 years?

say's it realy.

No, no, no, mate...that's not it at all.  There are two camps but it shakes out like this:

Camp One still has faith in Rafa

Camp Two doesn't

What that means is that those of us in Camp One still feel that, despite mounting evidence to the contrary (I freely admit), Rafa has the capacity to win us the league.  We don't just want cup success and the only reason we refer to the cups is because, to us, they demonstrate that Rafa can get the best out of players and put silverware in the cabinet.  To us in Camp One, those cups have cemented our faith in the man and we are prepared to be a bit more patient with him in the hopes that he'll bring us the league.

For those of you in Camp Two, it seems clear that you have lost that faith in the man.  A very few of you never had it in the first place and that's your prerogative.  Many of you, however, did have tremendous faith in the man at one point but have now decided that he's no longer up to the task of bringing us the league.  Again, that's your prerogative.  As I've admitted, you've got mounting evidence on your side as well as mounting backing from fellow supporters.  I'd even go so far as to say that you will almost certainly get your wish because I expect Rafa will be off, one way or the other, by season's end at the latest.

To answer Mick's initial question, IMO, as a debate, this "Rafa - stay or go?" discussion is over.  We in Camp One will never convince you in Camp Two that you're wrong at this stage (and vice versa, to be fair).  You refute any evidence we might wish to present and you clearly don't share the faith that underlies it all for us, so what's the point in arguing about it?  That's why a lot of us are much quieter these days: we can't be a.rsed debating the issue when so many minds are already made up.  I just hope that we can keep any discussion that arises civil.  This place has already seen enough flame wars in the past few months.

Nail. On. Head.

Cheque.  In.  Post.   

Torres 2007 wrote:Some reaction here Mick. and Damn good too......

Point is, you can analyze the team, Rafa, Owners, system etc till you are blue in the face. But it is so simple.

We do not have a strong squad. SOme players are just NOT GOOD ENOUGH. They are decent, but not great.

Some names: Crouch, Kuyt, Kewell, Riise, Pennant.
These guys get found out by the likes of Barnesly and H & W, because they have little impact on the game!

And I wish some fans would stop slating the owners. The have backed Rafa to the tune of about 50 million this season alone for Torres,Benayoun, Babel, Skrtel.

Whos team is it? Who picks the team, buys the players?

RAFA. and he should be held accountable.
I dont think we will get past Inter, my head ruling my heart.

And getting to the CL final 3 seasons out of four is very difficult indeed.

Those who think Rafa is god, and we should keep the faith, some facts for you.

1. 21 points off the league summit last season. could be more this.
2. We are not even CLOSE to finishing second let alone 1st.
3. Rafa has had 150m + to buy players. Say he was still here in summer, give him another 50m? Utd, Chelsea Arsenal all gonna buy more players and strengthen further. So who we gonna buy.
Im not messing , unless we bid 30m for Kaka or Ronny then we are gonna be in the same boat and lagging behind.
we need players who can OPEN TEAMS UP. Kaka certainly can.
4. HIs rotation does not work in the prem, as teams who have spent less, Man City, VIlla, Blue noses are more consistent.
5. His record for head to heads in league V Arsenal, MAn Utd and Chelsea home and away in four years is awful. I dont think we have beaten any of them ONCE!
6. He has left key players out/ on bench for crucial games.

If you take that into consideration, then we have hardly progressed at all. For all our success in 2005, I also think lady luck was on our side.

iWhen successful in the 80's, all the players, Beardo, BArnes, Houghton, Aldo etc all had a bit of creativity about them, a bit of ingenuity. thats what we need when recruiting.

I just think Rafa is not a golden angel.

Spot on, totally agree.

I would like to have one of the pro Rafalites explain to me what is so great about Rafa, are we getting better each season in the league, do we need to buy the league like Chelsea did for Rafa to be successful?
Apart form success in the Champions League where we barely squeezed through the group stages this year can you explain his genius in the league to me? What makes him so much better than other managers?

I ask because I cannot see your viewpoint and want to understand it, maybe my viewpoint and the rest of the people who want him out is scary and strange to you but I am happy to explain it. In my opinion Rafa has lost the dressing room, plays tactics which don't work, makes very poor substitutions and has next to zero man management skills. The day Pako left was when it all started going worse for him, not that it's ever been great. What would it take for you guys to loose faith in him, relegation maybe? Why do you guys think things will be better next season?

heimdall wrote:What would it take for you guys to loose faith in him, relegation maybe? Why do you guys think things will be better next season?

Bad Bob wrote:

heimdall wrote:What would it take for you guys to loose faith in him, relegation maybe? Why do you guys think things will be better next season?

I wish I could answer these questions, TBH, but I can't.  I still have faith in him despite being deeply frustrated at how far we've slid backwards this season.  No doubt many will find my faith inscrutable, laughable, woefully naive, whatever.  There's not much I can say to that, to be perfectly honest.  All I know is that I re-examine my views on Rafa constantly and especially after terrible results like yesterday and, still, I've yet to feel in my gut that he's taken us as far as he can.  That's something I can't explain to myself let alone to those of you who want him out but that's honestly why I still support Rafa.  Will there come a time soon when my gut says we need to make a change?  Perhaps and I'm certain I'll say so when it happens.  Until then, though, I remain unapologetically pro-Rafa.