Liverpool FC Forum

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:41 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:West Derby (dumpy area of Liverpool, no offence to anyone from there)

apart from the million quid houses in sandfield park, and the very nice expensive houses in other parts of west derby, also residing here were the likes of craig johnstone, bruce grobbelaar and numerous gangsters.

west derby is hardly what you would call dumpy mate, in fact i went to school there

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:51 am

There really is no point in arguing with those too blind to see the glaringly obvious.

And I say again - anyone who wants Mourinho is an idiot.

by **TwelthMan** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:59 am

Rafa's rotation policy is :censored:

because no matter how much you protect a player they will get injured somehow e.g. Torres in a friendly or in training. By not playing a settled team you struggle to gain rhythm and confidence even if you have good enough players throughout the squad. Therefore you may aswell put out your best team (Pompey, Brum etc) and 'risk' injuries/tiredness for the sake of 1.) Winning. 2.) Rhythm. 3.) Confidence. And this obviously pays in the longterm as success breeds success and even if you have a depleted team e.g. Chelsea the sheer momentum and confidence will get you through the final part of the season.

Rafa's mistake is therefore one of 'false economy' (google it lol). He has admitted he gambles and he is also (deludedly IMO) convinced that this strategy works. Since Rafa is convinced his methods are vindicated by his CL successes i fear he will never change and for this reason should go and gamble somewhere else like monte carlo

by **The_Rock** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:03 am

And i say those who support rafa style rotation and his weird tactics (crouch as a left forward, lucas as a LW) are m0r0ns..... :buttrock

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:06 am

Each to their own.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:55 am

bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Did I not put "zero" values on all the teams' home-grown talent, then?

You did Lando and TBPH I didn't notice it so sorry about that. Once I got to the bit about Gerrard being Zero I stopped reading as it was beginning to resemble a Tompkins meander. I would say though, not that it's an excuse or anything, but counting home grown players as zero when trying to establish the worth of the team renders the whole thing meaningless IMHO. Anyway, sorry I got the wrong end of the stick.

The main point is that we are in danger of finishing behind Everton, whose team is not in the same stratosphere as ours in terms of quality. They know it, we know it and everyone else knows it and I can't think of a better way of illustrating how much we have lost our way.

As for Saints post, there are some really incredible stats there. 279 changes to the team so far this season. An average of five changes per match. Incredible really when you think about it. Then we wonder why we aren't consistent.

Probably even more of a worry for the "In Rafa We Trust"ers are his views on the policy and it's success or otherwise. We've been in two Champions League finals and won the FA Cup BECAUSE we change the side. Nothing to do with Gerrards last minute blockbuster against Olympiacos then, nor his wonder goal in the dying seconds against west Ham to take the game into extra time or the comeback from 3-0 down against Milan then? No, it's because we have a tactical genius at the helm and it's because we change the side every week. Hmmmmm. Needless to say however the fact that the top three have long since disappeared into the distance in the league is nothing to do with the "gambles" (good word that).

"If you play THE SAME TEAM ALL OF THE TIME you will find at the end of the season you cannot win trophies". Oh dear. Doesn't he know that nobody has ever won the English premier League by playing the same team in every single game? Doesn't he realise that practically nobody is saying we should play the same team in every single game? Doesn't he realise that nobody with any sense would deny that changing the team against a non-league team at home was fair enough? The problem most of us had was that we subsequently sent eleven players onto the pitch wearing Liverpool shirts who conspired to go behind twice against the said non-league team.

This is the same kind of nonsense which people on here were spouting in the rotation thread six months ago, and even on here it's now acepted as b0ll0cks. We get a quick visit to the "resting prevents injuries" doctrine which was all the rage until the last time Torres got injured (straight after being rested) and we even get a quick visitation to the "delayed gazelle" theory which is clearly alive and well in the mind of the manager as well. Didn't Torres rest against Havant? Are we to believe he should have been rested more, that this would have prevented his injury? Are we to believe and expect after 279 changes to the team that the "delayed gazelle" is actually just around the corner? I'll be watching for evidence of it with great interest.

No it's time to tell it like it is. It's b0ll0cks. It was b0ll0cks four years ago, it was b0ll0cks at the start of this season, and it's b0ll0cks now. There has been no "learning of lessons"
and nor will there be. There have been no "seeing the lights", nor "realisations". What we have is a man who believes the players are merely pieces in a chess game, a man who believes that any success he has had is down to his tactical brilliance and not down to any imput from the players. We have a man who is consumed in his arrogance, who believes he will eventually be proven correct despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. He is a man who I believe the players no longer have time for, and is past his sell by date.

It makes dreadful reading does that interview. It's time for a change.

Once again bigmick a good post, although i think your abit harsh on rafa ,but there you go.

Imo Rafa believes in his policy and he aint going to change. The rotation arguement (rafa style) is dead in the water now . It's not going to work ,that's glaringly obvious to me now. I also think the should rafa stay or go debate is a dead duck aswell (unless we win the champions league,which is a possibilty given recent years ),because who ever is in charge will get rid or he'll walk.

I'm trying to be as honest as i can in coming to this conclusion ,but i just can't bring myself to say Rafa should go ,i really can't . Call it stupidity or blind loyalty or whatever you want. The thing that keeps going round in my head is ,how can we sack someone who has done so much for the club. How have we gone from Istanbul and Athens to Rafa's sh!te and he should be sacked. He's the man who turned things around for the club(with a little help from the players

)and now he's some sort of clueless arrogant idiot ,who doesn't know what he's doing.

I will concede ,i havent the foggiest why he picks who he picks and in what position, but i still maintain he's doing it for a good reason in his mind anyway , absolutely no way does he do it for the sake of it . I'm definately of the happy clappy breed , but i also know when i'm wrong and i'm willing to admit it.

Having said all that it's still a big no to sacking Rafa , it just doesn't sit right , it feels very newcastley or tottenhamey if you know what i mean.

Remember this is posted before the Chelsea game today ,so if we win it's all bolloxs ok. No seriously ,i would be over the moon to win today ,but i'd still feel the same. Gutted i've posted this to be honest.

by **bigmick** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:07 am

Well you're certainly right about what he's done for the club Igor, he's turned it around and there'll be no argument there form me. Winning the Champions league with the team we had in his first season remains the most unbeliveable achivement of any manager in living memory, as lets face it we had a team which was largely full of rubbish players. The biggest frustration for me, is that he has never been able to consider changing his method. I think he's been good in the transfer market (apart from the fact he's tried to build two teams) and tactically fantastic in big showpiece games, but i will ultimately remember him as a manager who never really gave the team a chance, and it's a terrible shame.

I've said it a couple of times, but someone will very likely come in, change very little but allow the team to find a settled pattern and go very close to winning the league. It's bl00dy madness when you think about it and so fecking annoying, but what can you do?

by **lakes10** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:07 am

I am in shock that Rafa has once again hit out at the owners in the press.

I heard it first on radio 5 .

RAFA BENITEZ has again risked the wrath of Liverpool's American owners by blaming them for RUINING his team's title hopes.
The Anfield boss says their bid to replace him with Jurgen Klinsmann late last year de-stabilised the club and undermined all hopes of winning the Premier League.

Benitez, whose side take on Chelsea at Stamford Bridge today, chose his words carefully — hardly surprising after receiving a rap from Tom Hicks and George Gillett for earlier outbursts.

But he said: "What is evident is that back at that time we were in a great position and the team was in shape to win many of the games which we eventually drew.

"So the entire process is what allowed the gap to open between us and the leaders.

"If I wanted, I have the perfect excuse.

The only solution I have is to try to bury myself in my work. And it is vital we win today to enable us to fight at least for that fourth-place spot."

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:14 am

lakes10 wrote:I am in shock that Rafa has once again hit out at the owners in the press.

I heard it first on radio 5 .

RAFA BENITEZ has again risked the wrath of Liverpool's American owners by blaming them for RUINING his team's title hopes.
The Anfield boss says their bid to replace him with Jurgen Klinsmann late last year de-stabilised the club and undermined all hopes of winning the Premier League.

Benitez, whose side take on Chelsea at Stamford Bridge today, chose his words carefully — hardly surprising after receiving a rap from Tom Hicks and George Gillett for earlier outbursts.

But he said: "What is evident is that back at that time we were in a great position and the team was in shape to win many of the games which we eventually drew.

"So the entire process is what allowed the gap to open between us and the leaders.

"If I wanted, I have the perfect excuse.

The only solution I have is to try to bury myself in my work. And it is vital we win today to enable us to fight at least for that fourth-place spot."

yeah i read this earlier, i wonder what his excuse is for the previous 3 seasons.

he doesn't do himself any favours when he spouts sh*te like this

:no

by **The_Rock** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:24 am

lakes10 wrote:I am in shock that Rafa has once again hit out at the owners in the press.

I heard it first on radio 5 .

RAFA BENITEZ has again risked the wrath of Liverpool's American owners by blaming them for RUINING his team's title hopes.
The Anfield boss says their bid to replace him with Jurgen Klinsmann late last year de-stabilised the club and undermined all hopes of winning the Premier League.

Benitez, whose side take on Chelsea at Stamford Bridge today, chose his words carefully — hardly surprising after receiving a rap from Tom Hicks and George Gillett for earlier outbursts.

But he said: "What is evident is that back at that time we were in a great position and the team was in shape to win many of the games which we eventually drew.

"So the entire process is what allowed the gap to open between us and the leaders.

"If I wanted, I have the perfect excuse.

The only solution I have is to try to bury myself in my work. And it is vital we win today to enable us to fight at least for that fourth-place spot."

Jesus christ rafa......you can point your finger at anyone but which direction are the other 4 pointing at....

This is getting ridiculous..... How about being a man rafa and accepting the blame for persisting with kuyt, playing crouch on the left wing....etc..... :no

Its over....rafa has to go. He is not focused on the team. He just does not want any tarnish to his reputation.....he has to go.

What do the happy-clappy brigade think about rafa's latest outburst..... :angry:

http://msn.foxsports.com/soccer....results

Rafa blames rift for bad results

Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez believes he has "the perfect excuse" for his side's lackluster performance in the Premier League this season.

The Spanish coach's relationship with co-owners George Gillett and Tom Hicks came in for some intense scrutiny around the turn of the year as concerns over the size of the available transfer budget seemingly caused a rift.

Hicks later admitted that the Americans had held talks with former Germany manager Jurgen Klinsmann - a fact which further destabilised Benitez's position and led to fan protests in defence of the manager.

"What is evident is that back at that time, we were in a great position and the team was in shape to win many of the games which we eventually drew," he told the News of the World.

"So the entire process is what allowed the gap to open between us and the leaders.

"If I wanted, I have the perfect excuse. The only solution I have is to try to bury myself in my work."

The Reds travel to face Chelsea on Sunday with their title ambitions extinguished and a battle to retain their Champions League berth for next season now their primary focus.

Benitez added: "What is vital is that we win to enable us to fight for at least the fourth-placed spot."

by **RedBlood** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:28 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:Remarkable Rafa !

LFC had been winning trophies long before you came in, Liverpool teams and managers of old had won cups and leagues without rotation.

We were not a cupless club, who you've just picked up and worked miracles with this new age way of managing that simply is no more effective than the ole 'play your best eleven methods'

Yes............

We won more cups under houllier than rafa.....so its all not due to rafa that we are a good cup side.... The way i see it...rafa is continuing the legacy left behind by houllier....

One major difference I see between the "legacy" Houllier had Phil Thompson and Sammy Lee on his backroom staff. Players and fans of this club who knew what it meant to the fans, Benitez hasn't got that which is why he's still going about it his way, rather than the "Liverpool" way.

im just curious, did the 'liverpool way' work for souness and evans??

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:29 am

bigmick wrote:Well you're certainly right about what he's done for the club Igor, he's turned it around and there'll be no argument there form me. Winning the Champions league with the team we had in his first season remains the most unbeliveable achivement of any manager in living memory, as lets face it we had a team which was largely full of rubbish players. The biggest frustration for me, is that he has never been able to consider changing his method. I think he's been good in the transfer market (apart from the fact he's tried to build two teams) and tactically fantastic in big showpiece games, but i will ultimately remember him as a manager who never really gave the team a chance, and it's a terrible shame.

I've said it a couple of times, but someone will very likely come in, change very little but allow the team to find a settled pattern and go very close to winning the league. It's bl00dy madness when you think about it and so fecking annoying, but what can you do?

Exactly mick , he's bought good players imo ,he's proved he does have tactical nouse and he's won big competitions . So why can't we even challenge in the league. You can only come to one conclusion. The only way we could challenge in the league next season and rotating rafa style is to have a squad of world class players and that's never going to happen .ONLY AT CHELSEA and that's a freak , noone else can do that. Also this business with the yanks has got to have an effect on rafa and the team ,but not that big an effect as to us not being able to pass a ball to member of our own team. Moral is low and so is confidence for two reason's in my eyes and they are. The yanks ,but mostly rotation rafa style( i keep saying raf style ,because i believe in rotation ,but not to the extent that rafa does.)

by **RedBlood** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:34 am

peewee wrote:
lakes10 wrote:I am in shock that Rafa has once again hit out at the owners in the press.

I heard it first on radio 5 .

RAFA BENITEZ has again risked the wrath of Liverpool's American owners by blaming them for RUINING his team's title hopes.
The Anfield boss says their bid to replace him with Jurgen Klinsmann late last year de-stabilised the club and undermined all hopes of winning the Premier League.

Benitez, whose side take on Chelsea at Stamford Bridge today, chose his words carefully — hardly surprising after receiving a rap from Tom Hicks and George Gillett for earlier outbursts.

But he said: "What is evident is that back at that time we were in a great position and the team was in shape to win many of the games which we eventually drew.

"So the entire process is what allowed the gap to open between us and the leaders.

"If I wanted, I have the perfect excuse.

The only solution I have is to try to bury myself in my work. And it is vital we win today to enable us to fight at least for that fourth-place spot."

yeah i read this earlier, i wonder what his excuse is for the previous 3 seasons.

he doesn't do himself any favours when he spouts sh*te like this

its funny as arnt you one of the people that want tight-lipped mourinho as our next manager?

by **JC_81** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:45 am

There has been some debate in the past as to whether Mourinho should be considered as Benitez's replacement. I'm going to be controversial again in this thread and say that he should definitely be considered.

Without getting into the debate over whether Rafa's days are numbered and whether he has brought us any closer to winning the title, I'm going to cut to the chase and say yes, in my opinion this is his last season, we are no closer to winning the title and he will either walk or be replaced this summer.

Why Mourinho then? Quite simply he's a quick-fix manager. Someone who comes into a club, gets a few of his own players in that fit his system, and gets the absolute best out of all of his players by creating a fantastic team spirit, a seige mentality and by making his players believe that they should be winning every game. In my opinion that is exactly what we need. We need to get someone in who can win us the title in the next 2-3 years before players like Carra and Gerrard are past it, because once we lose those 2 as our spine, we truly are rebuilding. Fu.ck the 5 year plans and buying in 100 teenage prospects from the 4 corners of the earth, the first team squad winning the title is what it's all about.

Liverpool now are similar to the Chelsea side Mourinho inherited. Plenty of talented players, but had a 'tinkerman' in charge (Ranieri), who didn't know what his best team was, constantly rotated and couldn't achieve consistent results. The players and manager weren't all singing from the same hymn sheet. Substitute Benitez for Ranieri in this paragraph and you have a summary of the situation as it is exactly at Liverpool now.

The next question is money. 'Mourinho had a blank cheque book at Chelsea, he buys success'. Well how much has Benitez spent? Buying success is better than buying failure imo (harsh but 1 CL, 1 FA cup and another CL final in 4 years is failure for a club of our stature). Mourinho is more hit and miss in the transfer market than Benitez certainly imo, but he isn't bad.

Tactics? We all marvelled at Benitez's tactical superiority over the special one in our CL victories over them. 'He's a genius' we said. Is he though? The bigger picture would suggest otherwise. Mass rotation is tactical naivity, not genius imo. And the failure to learn from your mistakes is stupidity by definition. Stubbornness or stupidity? Decide for yourself. Mourinho's tactics are somewhat one dimensional and the football isn't great to watch, but Liverpool under Benitez aren't great to watch either. I'd happily put up with Mourinho's 'power-play' tactics if it won us the league.

What about Mourinho's attitude, he's an @rsehole isn't he? Yeah he is, but he's a 'good at his job @rsehole'. Nobody would have got wound up by him is he was rubbish, it's because he could back up the arrogance, and god did he know how to wind people up. Looking back though, his hogging the press completely took the focus off the players and allowed then to get on with it. I don't deny Mourinho lovede the spotlight, but it was also for the good of Chelsea. If he came to Liverpool he'd be a mercenary though wouldn't he? Yes, like most people in football these days, it's the way it is. If he came here I wouldn't expect him to stay for 10 years, but realistically very few managers do that these days. If he comes here for 3 years and wins the league then the job's a good one.

Would Mourinho want to come here? I believe he'd jump at the chance. He'd have a chance to get back at Abramovitch, he clearly loves the controversy in dealing with the English press and he also loves the English game. The bit I don't like is that he'd also like to rub Benitez's nose in it, and naturally I still have a sense of loyalty to Benitez, even though I think he needs to go. I believe Mourinho will only take a top club job. I don't think any of the top Italian or Spanish sides will need him this summer (although things change quickly in football), and I think he needs to get back into football soon. To be honest I think should Benitez go, Mourinho would see Liverpool as the perfect job.

Would Liverpool take Mourinho on? The Yanks don't have a clue and I dare say they know nothing about loyalty. They'll go for a big name, and at the moment the biggest name currently out of management is Mourinho. In my opinion this may inadvertently prove to be a masterstroke.

Does it make me less of a fan to suggest I want Mourinho as coach? I don't believe so. I think this is a sensible way of looking at things. I've been a Benitez fan for 4 years, but I've been a Liverpool fan much longer than that and I just want us to win the title again.

by **RedBlood** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:52 am

theres no doubt if rafa was forced out the club by the yanks or the all powerful wannabe managers on this forum :laugh:

mourinho would be a good option but i would go for a more attack minded manager myself

i think as much as they disliked eachother they are very similar they both build a team round a strong defence and both rotate
the differences are mourinho is a better man motivator and rafa is a better taticition

Liverpool FC Forum

My indictment of the rafa benitez regime

Who is online