My indictment of the rafa benitez regime

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:54 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

Who hasn't Benitez got who we wanted or we haven't got the better buy anyway? I heard plenty of names of right wingers being flown around, and although Pennant may not of been our first choice, he's proven to be a good bargain at 5/6 million. Whoelse have we wanted who we've been unable to get or we haven't been able to bring a better replacement in?

Also Jol got Spurs into 5th, where are we? Last time I looked we were 5th, that's a pretty similar record. Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez' no doubt about that. Jol goes to Leverkusen and bring in Berbatov, Benitez brings in Voronin. Jol goes to Leeds and buys Lennon, Benitez gets Carson just to loan him out. Jol went to the lower leagues to find Dawson, Benitez brings in Hobbs (who I'm a huge fan of) but unlike Jol, Benitez decides to loan out our promising kids rather than give them a go. The majority of Jol's signings (the ones he wanted that is) have been of a good quality, Benitez' haven't.
1) You'll Never Walk Alone
2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:57 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Jol can't win the league because he's has had to buy the 3rd or 4th best options, or players he didn't even want. One reason why I want Jol is because he isn't affraid to give youngsters a go, and British youngsters at that.

As for ruskiy, the reason Benitez won't win the league is because of rotation and his defensive minded tactics. Given that squad of players, a settled side and tactic, we would challenge.

Whereas Rafa managed to buy Alves, Simao, Malouda, Vidic, Heinze, Wright-Phillips, etc...

So let me get this perfectly straight:

Martin Jol, despite spending more money than us, failing to overtake us in the league, never winning anything, and getting sacked, is a better manager than Rafa?

Enjoy your biftas, do you?  :laugh:

As I've said, we brought in a better quality player anyway. Pennant is just as good as anything else out there. Agger's as good a centre half as anybody. Babel's been a bigger success than Malouda this year. So where's the arguement?
1) You'll Never Walk Alone
2) pass and move is the Liverpool groove
3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:59 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

Who hasn't Benitez got who we wanted or we haven't got the better buy anyway? I heard plenty of names of right wingers being flown around, and although Pennant may not of been our first choice, he's proven to be a good bargain at 5/6 million. Whoelse have we wanted who we've been unable to get or we haven't been able to bring a better replacement in?

Also Jol got Spurs into 5th, where are we? Last time I looked we were 5th, that's a pretty similar record. Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez' no doubt about that. Jol goes to Leverkusen and bring in Berbatov, Benitez brings in Voronin. Jol goes to Leeds and buys Lennon, Benitez gets Carson just to loan him out. Jol went to the lower leagues to find Dawson, Benitez brings in Hobbs (who I'm a huge fan of) but unlike Jol, Benitez decides to loan out our promising kids rather than give them a go. The majority of Jol's signings (the ones he wanted that is) have been of a good quality, Benitez' haven't.

That's the most one-sided argument I've ever read lad - give your head a shake. :no

Comparing Berbatov to Voronin!?! Try Berba Vs Torres - who wins? That's right - Torres.

Compare Dawson to Agger - who wins? You guessed it - Agger.

Lennon to Carson!?! WTF kind of comparison is that!?! Lennon Vs Mascherano - who wins? :eyebrow

At least be realistic, soft lad. :no
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:02 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Jol can't win the league because he's has had to buy the 3rd or 4th best options, or players he didn't even want. One reason why I want Jol is because he isn't affraid to give youngsters a go, and British youngsters at that.

As for ruskiy, the reason Benitez won't win the league is because of rotation and his defensive minded tactics. Given that squad of players, a settled side and tactic, we would challenge.

Whereas Rafa managed to buy Alves, Simao, Malouda, Vidic, Heinze, Wright-Phillips, etc...

So let me get this perfectly straight:

Martin Jol, despite spending more money than us, failing to overtake us in the league, never winning anything, and getting sacked, is a better manager than Rafa?

Enjoy your biftas, do you?  :laugh:

As I've said, we brought in a better quality player anyway. Pennant is just as good as anything else out there. Agger's as good a centre half as anybody. Babel's been a bigger success than Malouda this year. So where's the arguement?

The argument is - you cite Jol as a better manager than Rafa because the former couldn't sign his first choice players.

Well I'm merely pointing out that neither could Rafa.

Could it be that it's Benitez's superior managerial ability which results in the 4th/5th choices we have being regarded as successes?
Last edited by Lando_Griffin on Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:04 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

Who hasn't Benitez got who we wanted or we haven't got the better buy anyway? I heard plenty of names of right wingers being flown around, and although Pennant may not of been our first choice, he's proven to be a good bargain at 5/6 million. Whoelse have we wanted who we've been unable to get or we haven't been able to bring a better replacement in?

Also Jol got Spurs into 5th, where are we? Last time I looked we were 5th, that's a pretty similar record. Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez' no doubt about that. Jol goes to Leverkusen and bring in Berbatov, Benitez brings in Voronin. Jol goes to Leeds and buys Lennon, Benitez gets Carson just to loan him out. Jol went to the lower leagues to find Dawson, Benitez brings in Hobbs (who I'm a huge fan of) but unlike Jol, Benitez decides to loan out our promising kids rather than give them a go. The majority of Jol's signings (the ones he wanted that is) have been of a good quality, Benitez' haven't.

That's the most one-sided argument I've ever read lad - give your head a shake. :no

Comparing Berbatov to Voronin!?! Try Berba Vs Torres - who wins? That's right - Torres.

Compare Dawson to Agger - who wins? You guessed it - Agger.

Lennon to Carson!?! WTF kind of comparison is that!?! Lennon Vs Mascherano - who wins? :eyebrow

At least be realistic, soft lad. :no

:laugh:  I think he was going off where they came from rather than their position (at least I hope so)

Berbatov - Voronin = germany

Carson - Lennon = Leeds

Dawson - Hobbs = Young English
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:11 pm

s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

Who hasn't Benitez got who we wanted or we haven't got the better buy anyway? I heard plenty of names of right wingers being flown around, and although Pennant may not of been our first choice, he's proven to be a good bargain at 5/6 million. Whoelse have we wanted who we've been unable to get or we haven't been able to bring a better replacement in?

Also Jol got Spurs into 5th, where are we? Last time I looked we were 5th, that's a pretty similar record. Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez' no doubt about that. Jol goes to Leverkusen and bring in Berbatov, Benitez brings in Voronin. Jol goes to Leeds and buys Lennon, Benitez gets Carson just to loan him out. Jol went to the lower leagues to find Dawson, Benitez brings in Hobbs (who I'm a huge fan of) but unlike Jol, Benitez decides to loan out our promising kids rather than give them a go. The majority of Jol's signings (the ones he wanted that is) have been of a good quality, Benitez' haven't.

That's the most one-sided argument I've ever read lad - give your head a shake. :no

Comparing Berbatov to Voronin!?! Try Berba Vs Torres - who wins? That's right - Torres.

Compare Dawson to Agger - who wins? You guessed it - Agger.

Lennon to Carson!?! WTF kind of comparison is that!?! Lennon Vs Mascherano - who wins? :eyebrow

At least be realistic, soft lad. :no

:laugh:  I think he was going off where they came from rather than their position (at least I hope so)

Berbatov - Voronin = germany

Carson - Lennon = Leeds

Dawson - Hobbs = Young English

But they are very unrealistic comparisons - and very unfair.

You also have to look at the cost per player.

Hobbs was, what, £150k? Dawson was £8m.

Berbatov was £10.9m, Voronin was free.

Lennon was £1m, Carson was £800k. (I'm sure that even GBJH can see the good business of buying a 'keeper for £800k and selling him for £10m, which is the price Villa will pay.)
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:22 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

Who hasn't Benitez got who we wanted or we haven't got the better buy anyway? I heard plenty of names of right wingers being flown around, and although Pennant may not of been our first choice, he's proven to be a good bargain at 5/6 million. Whoelse have we wanted who we've been unable to get or we haven't been able to bring a better replacement in?

Also Jol got Spurs into 5th, where are we? Last time I looked we were 5th, that's a pretty similar record. Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez' no doubt about that. Jol goes to Leverkusen and bring in Berbatov, Benitez brings in Voronin. Jol goes to Leeds and buys Lennon, Benitez gets Carson just to loan him out. Jol went to the lower leagues to find Dawson, Benitez brings in Hobbs (who I'm a huge fan of) but unlike Jol, Benitez decides to loan out our promising kids rather than give them a go. The majority of Jol's signings (the ones he wanted that is) have been of a good quality, Benitez' haven't.

That's the most one-sided argument I've ever read lad - give your head a shake. :no

Comparing Berbatov to Voronin!?! Try Berba Vs Torres - who wins? That's right - Torres.

Compare Dawson to Agger - who wins? You guessed it - Agger.

Lennon to Carson!?! WTF kind of comparison is that!?! Lennon Vs Mascherano - who wins? :eyebrow

At least be realistic, soft lad. :no

:laugh:  I think he was going off where they came from rather than their position (at least I hope so)

Berbatov - Voronin = germany

Carson - Lennon = Leeds

Dawson - Hobbs = Young English

But they are very unrealistic comparisons - and very unfair.

You also have to look at the cost per player.

Hobbs was, what, £150k? Dawson was £8m.

Berbatov was £10.9m, Voronin was free.

Lennon was £1m, Carson was £800k. (I'm sure that even GBJH can see the good business of buying a 'keeper for £800k and selling him for £10m, which is the price Villa will pay.)

I have heard the Carson deal has fallen through now mate (Liverpool side) Villa are supposedly signing another goalkeeper now. Someone off Celtic or someone supposedly going to Celtic? (not really sure)
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:27 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

Who hasn't Benitez got who we wanted or we haven't got the better buy anyway? I heard plenty of names of right wingers being flown around, and although Pennant may not of been our first choice, he's proven to be a good bargain at 5/6 million. Whoelse have we wanted who we've been unable to get or we haven't been able to bring a better replacement in?

Alves, Simao, SWP, Duff.

Heinze at left back too.

Then you have Rafa's comments after we signed Skrtel, they tried to sign others but they were well overpriced.

We may have signed Vidic but we couldn't, I think he was initially our number one target. Then again he went out and bought the best centre-half in the world in Agger (according to you), so he's obviously not THAT bad in the transfer market.


Also Jol got Spurs into 5th, where are we? Last time I looked we were 5th, that's a pretty similar record. .


Ok so you want to look at our position after 24 games, and not at the end of the season?

That's fine by me.

Last season, after 24 games, Spurs under Jol were 8th, we were 3rd.

There's your comparison.

Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez' no doubt about that. Jol goes to Leverkusen and bring in Berbatov, Benitez brings in Voronin. Jol goes to Leeds and buys Lennon, Benitez gets Carson just to loan him out. Jol went to the lower leagues to find Dawson, Benitez brings in Hobbs (who I'm a huge fan of) but unlike Jol, Benitez decides to loan out our promising kids rather than give them a go. The majority of Jol's signings (the ones he wanted that is) have been of a good quality, Benitez' haven't


Oh right, Darren Bent £17m, great bit of business that.

What about?

Ricardo Rocha?
Essou Ekotto?
Young pyo lee?
Pascal 'show me the money' Chimbonda.
Didier Zokora.
Younes Kaboul.
Michael Dawson (decent, no Agger)
Hossam Ghaly
Paul Stalteri
Andy Reid


You compare Hobbs with Dawson, and how much was Hobbs, and how much was Dawson?

£150k and £4m respectively.

You compare Berbatov with Voronin, fair? No.

How much was Voronin and how much was Berbatov?

£ :censored: all and £10.5m respectively.

If you're gonna make comparisons make them reasonable.

Berbatov or Torres for example. Torres every time.

Dawson or Agger. Agger every time.

Arbeloa or Chmibonda? Arbeloa every time.

Sissoko or Ghaly? Sissoko every time.

Alonso or Jenas? Alonso every time.

Zokoro or Mascherano? Mascherano EVERY time.

Lennon or Pennant? I'll give you that one.

Then you can compare bad apples, Kuyt or Bent?

Take your pick, both overpriced, and Bent's played a lot hasn't he? I thought it was only Rafa that bought players but didn't play them?

Ekotto or Lee, or Aurelio? Aurelio's better than both and came on a free.

Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez'.

:laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

Good one.
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Postby heimdall » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:32 pm

s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

Who hasn't Benitez got who we wanted or we haven't got the better buy anyway? I heard plenty of names of right wingers being flown around, and although Pennant may not of been our first choice, he's proven to be a good bargain at 5/6 million. Whoelse have we wanted who we've been unable to get or we haven't been able to bring a better replacement in?

Also Jol got Spurs into 5th, where are we? Last time I looked we were 5th, that's a pretty similar record. Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez' no doubt about that. Jol goes to Leverkusen and bring in Berbatov, Benitez brings in Voronin. Jol goes to Leeds and buys Lennon, Benitez gets Carson just to loan him out. Jol went to the lower leagues to find Dawson, Benitez brings in Hobbs (who I'm a huge fan of) but unlike Jol, Benitez decides to loan out our promising kids rather than give them a go. The majority of Jol's signings (the ones he wanted that is) have been of a good quality, Benitez' haven't.

That's the most one-sided argument I've ever read lad - give your head a shake. :no

Comparing Berbatov to Voronin!?! Try Berba Vs Torres - who wins? That's right - Torres.

Compare Dawson to Agger - who wins? You guessed it - Agger.

Lennon to Carson!?! WTF kind of comparison is that!?! Lennon Vs Mascherano - who wins? :eyebrow

At least be realistic, soft lad. :no

:laugh:  I think he was going off where they came from rather than their position (at least I hope so)

Berbatov - Voronin = germany

Carson - Lennon = Leeds

Dawson - Hobbs = Young English

But they are very unrealistic comparisons - and very unfair.

You also have to look at the cost per player.

Hobbs was, what, £150k? Dawson was £8m.

Berbatov was £10.9m, Voronin was free.

Lennon was £1m, Carson was £800k. (I'm sure that even GBJH can see the good business of buying a 'keeper for £800k and selling him for £10m, which is the price Villa will pay.)

I have heard the Carson deal has fallen through now mate (Liverpool side) Villa are supposedly signing another goalkeeper now. Someone off Celtic or someone supposedly going to Celtic? (not really sure)

Ah that magic Parry touch again, another deal bites the dust  :veryangry

To be honest I don't really have a huge problem with the signings Rafa has made, they haven't really been any worse than other managers but he is buying the wrong players in terms of the positions we need filled. We need good wingers and another good striker not more bloody central midfielders!!
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:34 pm

I'm going to add a controversial observation to this thread - I believe the argument with the American owners has saved Benitez's job, at least for now.

I don't think the power struggle off the field has helped matters on it, but I won't accept that it's a valid excuse for us to be 20 points off the pace in February.  Rafa didn't have to win the league to have a successful season - let's face it Arsenal, United and Chelsea are bloody strong teams on a European scale let alone in the Premiership (It's the hardest league in the world to win at the moment imo), but he certainly had to do better than this.  Our current position is unacceptable and in any foreign club and perhaps any other top English side, Benitez would be sacked by now, I really believe that.

Why has he not been sacked?  Quite simply the new owners have not endeared themselves to the fans.  Forget about their treatment of Benitez and the Klinsmann fiasco for a moment - consider the fact that they have not delivered and in fact have lied to us over the new stadium.  Also consider that they are rarely this side of the Atlantic, therefore leaving the incompitant clown Parry in charge of matters, and all this because seemingly they are here to make profit and do not understand, let alone like the game of 'soccer'.  They are liars and they cannot be trusted, I firmly believe that the sooner they fu.ck off, the quicker we'll get back on track.

Now to the row with Benitez.  Clearly they want him out.  All this 'Klinsmann was a contingency plan in case Rafa left' is complete nonsense, any idiot can read between the lines there.  He's done something to wind them up and I'm not sure exactly what, be it his transfer money demands or what, we'll maybe never know.  Fact is they would have sacked him had it not been for the backing the fans gave Rafa.  They realised that the fans would like them even less if they got rid of him and they didn't want to damage their asset (LFC).

I also firmly believe that had the yanks shut up, got the new stadium sorted and gave Benitez the money he wanted in January, the fans would be generally in favour of sacking Benitez right now and wouldn't be paying so much attention to the owners.  The fact is we all want Rafa to succeed and are naturally going to make the owners rather than Rafa the scapegoat here, they're easy targets. 

We now have not one but two major problems as I see it.

1)  I don't think Benitez can win us the Premiership.

2)  I think the club is going to be badly run for the forseeable future with the yanks in charge and I fear that things are going to have to get worse before they get better.

On the Benitez reign, I believe that he has brought better players to the club than in previous reigns and I think he has generally been good in the transfer market.  I don't think the football we play is any better than it was under Houllier and I don't think he is a good motivator as a coach.  We are a good cup team, but we have never been a consistent team under him and his rotation sees to that.  I think at this point there is so much pressure on him from owners, fans and the media that this summer he will either walk away or be replaced.

I believe that I've been one of Benitez's biggest supporters on this forum over the years, but I always said this was his make or break season, and I'm afraid it's break.
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Postby ruskiy playmaker » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:47 pm

heimdall wrote:
s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
s@int wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

Who hasn't Benitez got who we wanted or we haven't got the better buy anyway? I heard plenty of names of right wingers being flown around, and although Pennant may not of been our first choice, he's proven to be a good bargain at 5/6 million. Whoelse have we wanted who we've been unable to get or we haven't been able to bring a better replacement in?

Also Jol got Spurs into 5th, where are we? Last time I looked we were 5th, that's a pretty similar record. Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez' no doubt about that. Jol goes to Leverkusen and bring in Berbatov, Benitez brings in Voronin. Jol goes to Leeds and buys Lennon, Benitez gets Carson just to loan him out. Jol went to the lower leagues to find Dawson, Benitez brings in Hobbs (who I'm a huge fan of) but unlike Jol, Benitez decides to loan out our promising kids rather than give them a go. The majority of Jol's signings (the ones he wanted that is) have been of a good quality, Benitez' haven't.

That's the most one-sided argument I've ever read lad - give your head a shake. :no

Comparing Berbatov to Voronin!?! Try Berba Vs Torres - who wins? That's right - Torres.

Compare Dawson to Agger - who wins? You guessed it - Agger.

Lennon to Carson!?! WTF kind of comparison is that!?! Lennon Vs Mascherano - who wins? :eyebrow

At least be realistic, soft lad. :no

:laugh:  I think he was going off where they came from rather than their position (at least I hope so)

Berbatov - Voronin = germany

Carson - Lennon = Leeds

Dawson - Hobbs = Young English

But they are very unrealistic comparisons - and very unfair.

You also have to look at the cost per player.

Hobbs was, what, £150k? Dawson was £8m.

Berbatov was £10.9m, Voronin was free.

Lennon was £1m, Carson was £800k. (I'm sure that even GBJH can see the good business of buying a 'keeper for £800k and selling him for £10m, which is the price Villa will pay.)

I have heard the Carson deal has fallen through now mate (Liverpool side) Villa are supposedly signing another goalkeeper now. Someone off Celtic or someone supposedly going to Celtic? (not really sure)

Ah that magic Parry touch again, another deal bites the dust  :veryangry

To be honest I don't really have a huge problem with the signings Rafa has made, they haven't really been any worse than other managers but he is buying the wrong players in terms of the positions we need filled. We need good wingers and another good striker not more bloody central midfielders!!

So having 4 CM's is too much?  Chelsea have like 5 and Man U have 4.  You're a joke!
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:54 pm

john craig wrote:I'm going to add a controversial observation to this thread - I believe the argument with the American owners has saved Benitez's job, at least for now.

I don't think the power struggle off the field has helped matters on it, but I won't accept that it's a valid excuse for us to be 20 points off the pace in February.  Rafa didn't have to win the league to have a successful season - let's face it Arsenal, United and Chelsea are bloody strong teams on a European scale let alone in the Premiership (It's the hardest league in the world to win at the moment imo), but he certainly had to do better than this.  Our current position is unacceptable and in any foreign club and perhaps any other top English side, Benitez would be sacked by now, I really believe that.

Why has he not been sacked?  Quite simply the new owners have not endeared themselves to the fans.  Forget about their treatment of Benitez and the Klinsmann fiasco for a moment - consider the fact that they have not delivered and in fact have lied to us over the new stadium.  Also consider that they are rarely this side of the Atlantic, therefore leaving the incompitant clown Parry in charge of matters, and all this because seemingly they are here to make profit and do not understand, let alone like the game of 'soccer'.  They are liars and they cannot be trusted, I firmly believe that the sooner they fu.ck off, the quicker we'll get back on track.

Now to the row with Benitez.  Clearly they want him out.  All this 'Klinsmann was a contingency plan in case Rafa left' is complete nonsense, any idiot can read between the lines there.  He's done something to wind them up and I'm not sure exactly what, be it his transfer money demands or what, we'll maybe never know.  Fact is they would have sacked him had it not been for the backing the fans gave Rafa.  They realised that the fans would like them even less if they got rid of him and they didn't want to damage their asset (LFC).

I also firmly believe that had the yanks shut up, got the new stadium sorted and gave Benitez the money he wanted in January, the fans would be generally in favour of sacking Benitez right now and wouldn't be paying so much attention to the owners.  The fact is we all want Rafa to succeed and are naturally going to make the owners rather than Rafa the scapegoat here, they're easy targets. 

We now have not one but two major problems as I see it.

1)  I don't think Benitez can win us the Premiership.

2)  I think the club is going to be badly run for the forseeable future with the yanks in charge and I fear that things are going to have to get worse before they get better.

On the Benitez reign, I believe that he has brought better players to the club than in previous reigns and I think he has generally been good in the transfer market.  I don't think the football we play is any better than it was under Houllier and I don't think he is a good motivator as a coach.  We are a good cup team, but we have never been a consistent team under him and his rotation sees to that.  I think at this point there is so much pressure on him from owners, fans and the media that this summer he will either walk away or be replaced.

I believe that I've been one of Benitez's biggest supporters on this forum over the years, but I always said this was his make or break season, and I'm afraid it's break.

Good post as per usual John, my only question would be what do you do if Rafa wins the CL or FA cup this season.

I think along with Chelsea (of the ENGLISH CLUBS)we are probably in the best position to compete for the cups, as the mancs and Arsenal will no doubt be caught between two or even 3 stools. While long term the fact we never seem to challenge in the league is something that needs sorting, it certainly gives us a big advantage in the cups. 

Could we really sack a manager that won us the CL or FA cup?
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Postby JC_81 » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:21 pm

s@int wrote:
john craig wrote:I'm going to add a controversial observation to this thread - I believe the argument with the American owners has saved Benitez's job, at least for now.

I don't think the power struggle off the field has helped matters on it, but I won't accept that it's a valid excuse for us to be 20 points off the pace in February.  Rafa didn't have to win the league to have a successful season - let's face it Arsenal, United and Chelsea are bloody strong teams on a European scale let alone in the Premiership (It's the hardest league in the world to win at the moment imo), but he certainly had to do better than this.  Our current position is unacceptable and in any foreign club and perhaps any other top English side, Benitez would be sacked by now, I really believe that.

Why has he not been sacked?  Quite simply the new owners have not endeared themselves to the fans.  Forget about their treatment of Benitez and the Klinsmann fiasco for a moment - consider the fact that they have not delivered and in fact have lied to us over the new stadium.  Also consider that they are rarely this side of the Atlantic, therefore leaving the incompitant clown Parry in charge of matters, and all this because seemingly they are here to make profit and do not understand, let alone like the game of 'soccer'.  They are liars and they cannot be trusted, I firmly believe that the sooner they fu.ck off, the quicker we'll get back on track.

Now to the row with Benitez.  Clearly they want him out.  All this 'Klinsmann was a contingency plan in case Rafa left' is complete nonsense, any idiot can read between the lines there.  He's done something to wind them up and I'm not sure exactly what, be it his transfer money demands or what, we'll maybe never know.  Fact is they would have sacked him had it not been for the backing the fans gave Rafa.  They realised that the fans would like them even less if they got rid of him and they didn't want to damage their asset (LFC).

I also firmly believe that had the yanks shut up, got the new stadium sorted and gave Benitez the money he wanted in January, the fans would be generally in favour of sacking Benitez right now and wouldn't be paying so much attention to the owners.  The fact is we all want Rafa to succeed and are naturally going to make the owners rather than Rafa the scapegoat here, they're easy targets. 

We now have not one but two major problems as I see it.

1)  I don't think Benitez can win us the Premiership.

2)  I think the club is going to be badly run for the forseeable future with the yanks in charge and I fear that things are going to have to get worse before they get better.

On the Benitez reign, I believe that he has brought better players to the club than in previous reigns and I think he has generally been good in the transfer market.  I don't think the football we play is any better than it was under Houllier and I don't think he is a good motivator as a coach.  We are a good cup team, but we have never been a consistent team under him and his rotation sees to that.  I think at this point there is so much pressure on him from owners, fans and the media that this summer he will either walk away or be replaced.

I believe that I've been one of Benitez's biggest supporters on this forum over the years, but I always said this was his make or break season, and I'm afraid it's break.

Good post as per usual John, my only question would be what do you do if Rafa wins the CL or FA cup this season.

I think along with Chelsea (of the ENGLISH CLUBS)we are probably in the best position to compete for the cups, as the mancs and Arsenal will no doubt be caught between two or even 3 stools. While long term the fact we never seem to challenge in the league is something that needs sorting, it certainly gives us a big advantage in the cups. 

Could we really sack a manager that won us the CL or FA cup?

I think the short answer s@int, is:

FA Cup - Yes, I believe he could still be sacked.  I'd still love to win it so that something good could come out of this season, but if we're honest it just doesn't have the same prestige any more.

Champion's league - Perhaps not, would be very difficult to sack him if we won that.  If we did win it then I'm sure that all fans, myself included, would be singing Rafa's praises.  But deep down I don't think it would change my opinion that he won't win us the title.
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Postby The_Rock » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:25 pm

Actually most of the "its time for a change" brigade are not heartless..... Its not that we wanna get rid of rafa because he can't win the league.

Its a lot to do with being so far behind in the title race (in feb FFS). If we were 5 to 6 points behind, this thread would not have been made. But we are not.

This coupled with the fact that we play boring football, rotation, lucas and crouch on the left wing/forward, motivation, did i mention boring football, players not improving at all, boring football....etc .....it all adds up. :p

There is just too many going wrong with rafa in charge.... If it one or 2 stuff....then maybe we will be more lenient.
Last edited by The_Rock on Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bigmick » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:04 pm

Well John's post is typically sensible, and just to re-answer Saints point from my perspective, I'd change the manager in the Summer if we won both the Champions League AND the FA Cup. Quite simply, I would like us to challenge for the title and scrapping it out for fourth place year on year is not the way to go. I'll get slated for that of course, but that's my view. It's also my view that unless we improve 200% we will win neither, but that will be proven correct or wrong in time.

Some question whether winning the title is possible given our relative lack of funds claiming that Wenger and Arsenal are a special case, and they may have a point. But I ask this, aren't we at least entitled to be on the fringes, in with a mathematical possibility at this stage? Chelsea for instance are hardly right in it but they are hardly right out of it either. Megabucks Chelsea who have been without Terry, Lampard and Drogba for huge parts of the season and are in the Carling Cup final, still in Europe and the FA Cup and are doing so whilst having to cope with a mid season manegerial change. The same Chelsea who Liverpool absolutely played off the park at the start of the season. There they are now, disappearing into the distance despite having a weaker team than the one which took the field that day, while we languish and flounder, waiting for the much vaunted late season freshness to kick in. Waiting for the points we cast away as sacrificial lambs earlier in the season to come back as our "delayed gazelle" effect comes swishing through the squad. Waiting in vain as our star striker lies injured with a muscle strain for the second time this season. Perhaps the "resting" and the "options" and the "possibilities" was actually just a complete load of b0ll0cks. Some of us said it was so at the time and for my part I've seen nothing since which has made me belive for a nanosecond that we were wrong. 

But we must "back the manager", "show some faith". If he gets "proper backing in the transfer market" then all will be good. But it won't. All we'll get, is more "possibilities", more "options", better class players "resting to preserve freshness for later in the season". It really doesn't matter how much you spend on players, or how good they are, when they are sitting on their erse on the bench they are no better than me. When they are rotated into dizziness they become not a team but a collection of individuals. When you have right footed midfielders playing on the left wing, rotated with six feet seven target men playing on the left wing, when you have centre halves playing at right back in an ever changing kaleidoscope of 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-5-1, 4-1-3-1-1 it doesn't really matter who you sign. No we've tried it, God knows we've tried, but it doesn't work over here. How come it worked in Valencia? Feck knows but I'm equally stumped as to how Mark Gonzales and Fernando Torres work out over there too, but they do by all accounts. I'm stumped by it, but I don't lie awake at night thinking about it. It doesn't work over here this "Rafa style" and it never will. As one feisty poster on here was very fond of saying, END OF.

One last point. When we are looking at the cost/value of squads, it does amuse me when people put down Gerrard and Carragher as a zero value in defence of Rafa. Gerrard I would venture would cost in excess of 30 million squid, and Carra at least 10. It's not even as if the current manager brought them through. The Man Utd team which included Beckham, Giggs, Butt, Neville one and two must have been worth feck all. Just a thought.
Last edited by bigmick on Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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