Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:16 pm

Rafa admits to selection gambles
Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez has conceded that sometimes he "gambles too much" with his rotation policy at Anfield.

That is a remarkable admission from the Spaniard, who always defiantly defends his system of resting players on a regular basis.

It has meant that from day one of the season he has now made a staggering 279 changes to his line-ups, week on week, and shows no sign of sticking to his best side as critics continually claim he should.

Benitez averages an amazing five changes a match and has only kept an unchanged side once this term.

And as Benitez prepares this time to make enforced changes at Chelsea due to a growing injury list, he said: "If I need to make gambles, then I will make gambles.

"We have been in two Champions League finals and an FA Cup final. That is because we change the side.

"Sometimes it is good and works, sometimes not. But nobody really knows whether what I do is right.

"All I will say is that Liverpool and me have won a lot of trophies doing this.

"Sometimes maybe I take too many gambles. But it is necessary sometimes when opponents have top class, expensive players, and lots of them.

"If they have five players who cost £20m and we have just one, you need to use that player in the right moment. If you don't win, people blame you.

"If you do win, nobody mentions what team you put onto the field. I accept that."

He added: "We played against Havant and people said, 'play your best team.' But you cannot do that against a team like that, if people want that it is because they do not know what it takes to win trophies and trophies and trophies.

"If you cannot do things like that against smaller teams then you will just not be able to compete all the time against Premier League teams. You must change things for games like that."

Benitez will go into his 18th meeting with Chelsea without top scorer Fernando Torres, who damaged a hamstring playing for Spain in midweek.

The Spanish boss says: "People say I gamble too much with rotation and changes. But the answer to that is to look at Torres, he has played a lot of games for us recently and then he has another game with Spain, and he gets injured.

"He is continuing to play at a high level all the time. Players must rest also.

"We have half a dozen players in this situation, they all need to be changed and to rest. But everyone keeps talking about me playing my strongest team, and then you see what happens.

"I do not like to say what is my strongest team, I must use all the players with the demands we have. If you pick the same team all the time you will find at the end of the season that you cannot win trophies."

Liverpool now have three key games in 10 days to salvage their season. After the clash with Chelsea they will play Barnsley in the FA Cup fifth round next weekend, and then face the first leg of their Champions League clash with Inter Milan.

And Benitez is still fuming over the injury to Torres that has damaged Liverpool's chances in all three competitions.

He said: "We have three big games in 10 days in three different competitions and we have lost out top goalscorer.

"It is difficult to be calm about it, this was another international friendly in a busy period for clubs at this time of the season.

"It is crazy enough that they go away and have different training systems, diets, new ideas. And they get injured.

"We have got some confidence back with a 3-0 win over Sunderland and a very good second-half performance. But then a lot of players are away all over the world and we are left to train with just a few, it makes things very difficult."

Liverpool will also be without long-term injured stars Andriy Voronin, Fabio Aurelio, Alvaro Arbeloa and Daniel Agger, while Xabi Alonso is suspended.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:30 pm

bigmick wrote:Well John's post is typically sensible, and just to re-answer Saints point from my perspective, I'd change the manager in the Summer if we won both the Champions League AND the FA Cup. Quite simply, I would like us to challenge for the title and scrapping it out for fourth place year on year is not the way to go. I'll get slated for that of course, but that's my view. It's also my view that unless we improve 200% we will win neither, but that will be proven correct or wrong in time.

Some question whether winning the title is possible given our relative lack of funds claiming that Wenger and Arsenal are a special case, and they may have a point. But I ask this, aren't we at least entitled to be on the fringes, in with a mathematical possibility at this stage? Chelsea for instance are hardly right in it but they are hardly right out of it either. Megabucks Chelsea who have been without Terry, Lampard and Drogba for huge parts of the season and are in the Carling Cup final, still in Europe and the FA Cup and are doing so whilst having to cope with a mid season manegerial change. The same Chelsea who Liverpool absolutely played off the park at the start of the season. There they are now, disappearing into the distance despite having a weaker team than the one which took the field that day, while we languish and flounder, waiting for the much vaunted late season freshness to kick in. Waiting for the points we cast away as sacrificial lambs earlier in the season to come back as our "delayed gazelle" effect comes swishing through the squad. Waiting in vain as our star striker lies injured with a muscle strain for the second time this season. Perhaps the "resting" and the "options" and the "possibilities" was actually just a complete load of b0ll0cks. Some of us said it was so at the time and for my part I've seen nothing since which has made me belive for a nanosecond that we were wrong.

But we must "back the manager", "show some faith". If he gets "proper backing in the transfer market" then all will be good. But it won't. All we'll get, is more "possibilities", more "options", better class players "resting to preserve freshness for later in the season". It really doesn't matter how much you spend on players, or how good they are, when they are sitting on their erse on the bench they are no better than me. When they are rotated into dizziness they become not a team but a collection of individuals. When you have right footed midfielders playing on the left wing, rotated with six feet seven target men playing on the left wing, when you have centre halves playing at right back in an ever changing kaleidoscope of 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-5-1, 4-1-3-1-1 it doesn't really matter who you sign. No we've tried it, God knows we've tried, but it doesn't work over here. How come it worked in Valencia? Feck knows but I'm equally stumped as to how Mark Gonzales and Fernando Torres work out over there too, but they do by all accounts. I'm stumped by it, but I don't lie awake at night thinking about it. It doesn't work over here this "Rafa style" and it never will. As one feisty poster on here was very fond of saying, END OF.

One last point. When we are looking at the cost/value of squads, it does amuse me when people put down Gerrard and Carragher as a zero value in defence of Rafa. Gerrard I would venture would cost in excess of 30 million squid, and Carra at least 10. It's not even as if the current manager brought them through. The Man Utd team which included Beckham, Giggs, Butt, Neville one and two must have been worth feck all. Just a thought.

Did I not put "zero" values on all the teams' home-grown talent, then?

by **LFC2007** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:28 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:But like you said, a natural left winger would be a better solution than a forward playing there. Haven't we learned our lesson at this club, or is it in the contract of every forward other than the main scoring one, you have to play on the wing at some time. Going back to Heskey, Diouf, Cisse, and this season Voronin, Kuyt and Babel. All forwards who've been shoved onto the wing at some point. I would rather see Leto out there than a out of place forward, even if Leto isn't the answer, he can only learn from playing. At the start of the year, when he was given a couple of games it was here and there, that's no good for anyone nevermind a youngster. They need to be given at least 7/8 games straight in the side. They'll gain confidence with each game and it'll also tell you as a manager if they're good enough to cut it. If they play well after a SUSTAINED run in the side you know there's something there, if they're still struggling and finding it awkward as well as showing no signs of getting it right, you know you have a youngster who isn't likely to be what we need.

You said earlier that at the start of the season we had a team good enough to challenge, in that team you put Babel on the left wing.

Now it's Leto.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:58 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:But like you said, a natural left winger would be a better solution than a forward playing there. Haven't we learned our lesson at this club, or is it in the contract of every forward other than the main scoring one, you have to play on the wing at some time. Going back to Heskey, Diouf, Cisse, and this season Voronin, Kuyt and Babel. All forwards who've been shoved onto the wing at some point. I would rather see Leto out there than a out of place forward, even if Leto isn't the answer, he can only learn from playing. At the start of the year, when he was given a couple of games it was here and there, that's no good for anyone nevermind a youngster. They need to be given at least 7/8 games straight in the side. They'll gain confidence with each game and it'll also tell you as a manager if they're good enough to cut it. If they play well after a SUSTAINED run in the side you know there's something there, if they're still struggling and finding it awkward as well as showing no signs of getting it right, you know you have a youngster who isn't likely to be what we need.

You said earlier that at the start of the season we had a team good enough to challenge, in that team you put Babel on the left wing.

Now it's Leto.

Burn!

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:32 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:But like you said, a natural left winger would be a better solution than a forward playing there. Haven't we learned our lesson at this club, or is it in the contract of every forward other than the main scoring one, you have to play on the wing at some time. Going back to Heskey, Diouf, Cisse, and this season Voronin, Kuyt and Babel. All forwards who've been shoved onto the wing at some point. I would rather see Leto out there than a out of place forward, even if Leto isn't the answer, he can only learn from playing. At the start of the year, when he was given a couple of games it was here and there, that's no good for anyone nevermind a youngster. They need to be given at least 7/8 games straight in the side. They'll gain confidence with each game and it'll also tell you as a manager if they're good enough to cut it. If they play well after a SUSTAINED run in the side you know there's something there, if they're still struggling and finding it awkward as well as showing no signs of getting it right, you know you have a youngster who isn't likely to be what we need.

You said earlier that at the start of the season we had a team good enough to challenge, in that team you put Babel on the left wing.

Now it's Leto.

I put Babel out there because he's the best we have, but he's not a natural left winger, which is why I'd prefer Leto out there, esepcially NOW since the league has gone. At the start of the season when we were challenging Babel was the best option we had, now we might as well give Leto a go.

by **bigmick** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:11 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:Did I not put "zero" values on all the teams' home-grown talent, then?

You did Lando and TBPH I didn't notice it so sorry about that. Once I got to the bit about Gerrard being Zero I stopped reading as it was beginning to resemble a Tompkins meander. I would say though, not that it's an excuse or anything, but counting home grown players as zero when trying to establish the worth of the team renders the whole thing meaningless IMHO. Anyway, sorry I got the wrong end of the stick.

The main point is that we are in danger of finishing behind Everton, whose team is not in the same stratosphere as ours in terms of quality. They know it, we know it and everyone else knows it and I can't think of a better way of illustrating how much we have lost our way.

As for Saints post, there are some really incredible stats there. 279 changes to the team so far this season. An average of five changes per match. Incredible really when you think about it. Then we wonder why we aren't consistent.

Probably even more of a worry for the "In Rafa We Trust"ers are his views on the policy and it's success or otherwise. We've been in two Champions League finals and won the FA Cup BECAUSE we change the side. Nothing to do with Gerrards last minute blockbuster against Olympiacos then, nor his wonder goal in the dying seconds against west Ham to take the game into extra time or the comeback from 3-0 down against Milan then? No, it's because we have a tactical genius at the helm and it's because we change the side every week. Hmmmmm. Needless to say however the fact that the top three have long since disappeared into the distance in the league is nothing to do with the "gambles" (good word that).

"If you play THE SAME TEAM ALL OF THE TIME you will find at the end of the season you cannot win trophies". Oh dear. Doesn't he know that nobody has ever won the English premier League by playing the same team in every single game? Doesn't he realise that practically nobody is saying we should play the same team in every single game? Doesn't he realise that nobody with any sense would deny that changing the team against a non-league team at home was fair enough? The problem most of us had was that we subsequently sent eleven players onto the pitch wearing Liverpool shirts who conspired to go behind twice against the said non-league team.

This is the same kind of nonsense which people on here were spouting in the rotation thread six months ago, and even on here it's now acepted as b0ll0cks. We get a quick visit to the "resting prevents injuries" doctrine which was all the rage until the last time Torres got injured (straight after being rested) and we even get a quick visitation to the "delayed gazelle" theory which is clearly alive and well in the mind of the manager as well. Didn't Torres rest against Havant? Are we to believe he should have been rested more, that this would have prevented his injury? Are we to believe and expect after 279 changes to the team that the "delayed gazelle" is actually just around the corner? I'll be watching for evidence of it with great interest.

No it's time to tell it like it is. It's b0ll0cks. It was b0ll0cks four years ago, it was b0ll0cks at the start of this season, and it's b0ll0cks now. There has been no "learning of lessons"
and nor will there be. There have been no "seeing the lights", nor "realisations". What we have is a man who believes the players are merely pieces in a chess game, a man who believes that any success he has had is down to his tactical brilliance and not down to any imput from the players. We have a man who is consumed in his arrogance, who believes he will eventually be proven correct despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. He is a man who I believe the players no longer have time for, and is past his sell by date.

It makes dreadful reading does that interview. It's time for a change.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:32 am

I'm putting me neck on the line here but I'm guessing Mick isn't a fan of rotation

At the start of the season I heard the reason for rotation was because "we need players fit and fresh to push for the important games at the end of the season." Upon hearing this me then 16 year old son asked me a question I couldn't answer, and I'm hoping somebody on here can help me. "If we're resting the better players for the more important games, does that mean Carragher is considered useless by Benitez, as he never gets a rest?"

Also this point has been brought up time and time again but it's still worth bringing it up, what's the point in being fresh if we have nothing to go for, and by the end of the month that could be easily possible (even with the 2nd leg of europe not until march we could be out of that if the 1st leg goes tits up) So from next year we have to go for the league game in game out. Mick I don't agree with you on that point, I do want the same side week in week out, simplelly because I want the league. Stuff the cups and europe next year, I want the league. Carra and Gerrard and Hyypia (if he's there) need only a league title to complete the full club trophy cabinet. Not many players can say that, so lets give it a proper go. These players are superfit it's not hard to run round for 90 mins once maybe twice a week. IF they need rests, then bloody rest them for the cups but keep the same side for the league.

I'll refer to the days of when football was a mans game, they didn't need rests then when they were playing on heavy pitches with heavy balls while smoking 40 a day and drinking nearly as many pints a week. Oh and tackling was allowed because it was a art, one Graeme Souness and Mark Lawrenson among others perfected. People's arguement to this is "football's moved on and it's much quicker today" well that's bollox. No modern day player ran quicker than those forwards who were being chased by Tommy Smith and Joey Jones

But under the circumstances of yesteryear where I've already stated the difficulties and they played more games, it was harder back then than it is now. The reason players are so "tired" nowadays is because they're to busy poncing around writing books, buying mansions in the likes of Formby and doing the rest of the media work. Wouldn't of happened under Bob Paisley, he and Shanks lived in West Derby (dumpy area of Liverpool, no offence to anyone from there)

The reason for tiredness as well as the everything else that's gone wrong with this great sport over the years, is money. Players are to valuable to clubs and sponsorship deals and the rest of it. All the contracts now have little clauses in like "we get 10% of every shirt sold with Gerrard's name on" or "we have a 100k a week contract with Addidas for them to sponsor Torres' boots, so make sure he plays in every big game where the whole world will see him" Money mad the entire sport now.

Thinking about it, maybe the best thing for this club is for us to drop a few divisions so we can start playing people who want to play for the shirt again, not players going through the motions because they know they're picking up between 30-100 grand a week anyway.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:44 am

Remarkable Rafa !

LFC had been winning trophies long before you came in, Liverpool teams and managers of old had won cups and leagues without rotation.

We were not a cupless club, who you've just picked up and worked miracles with this new age way of managing that simply is no more effective than the ole 'play your best eleven methods'

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:56 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:These players are superfit it's not hard to run round for 90 mins once maybe twice a week. IF they need rests, then bloody rest them for the cups but keep the same side for the league.

I can't be a.rsed digging up the numbers that I posted in the rotation thread but they're there if people want to read them. They show the line-ups for each match pretty much into mid-December and what those line-ups reveal is that Rafa was keeping a fairly settled side for league matches whilst changing things around for the cup comps in the first few months of the season. Problem was (according to the anti-rotationers) that these cup comps often came every week in between the league games. We'd play in the league on the weekend and then have CL or Carling Cup matches midweek most weeks of the fall. The anti-rotationers argued at the time that changing the team for the mid-week cup matches disrupted the rhythm sufficiently to harm our league form. I doubt I said so at the time but, fair play to them--it was a consistent argument that fit well with their concerns over loss of cohesion on the pitch. But it does raise a bit of a quandry. Should we be resting players in those mid-week cup matches or should we stick with a largely settled formula for a run of matches? Arsenal did the latter and it paid dividends and they're still not showing any signs of fading away as the season wears on.

by **The_Rock** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:57 am

bigmick wrote:It makes dreadful reading does that interview. It's time for a change.

yeah..........we need mourinho

by **The_Rock** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:17 am

Bamaga man wrote:Remarkable Rafa !

LFC had been winning trophies long before you came in, Liverpool teams and managers of old had won cups and leagues without rotation.

We were not a cupless club, who you've just picked up and worked miracles with this new age way of managing that simply is no more effective than the ole 'play your best eleven methods'

Yes............

We won more cups under houllier than rafa.....so its all not due to rafa that we are a good cup side.... The way i see it...rafa is continuing the legacy left behind by houllier....

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:19 am

Well Bob for me, at the start of next season I'd like to see the manager (whoever it is) tell the players who his starting 11 is for the league (bar injuries and suspensions) This way we can't use rotation in the cups as the excuse because the players will know they're picked for the league and it'll be the same players. Relationships will be built up and confidence knowing it'll be the same side.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:21 am

The_Rock wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:Remarkable Rafa !

LFC had been winning trophies long before you came in, Liverpool teams and managers of old had won cups and leagues without rotation.

We were not a cupless club, who you've just picked up and worked miracles with this new age way of managing that simply is no more effective than the ole 'play your best eleven methods'

Yes............

We won more cups under houllier than rafa.....so its all not due to rafa that we are a good cup side.... The way i see it...rafa is continuing the legacy left behind by houllier....

One major difference I see between the "legacy" Houllier had Phil Thompson and Sammy Lee on his backroom staff. Players and fans of this club who knew what it meant to the fans, Benitez hasn't got that which is why he's still going about it his way, rather than the "Liverpool" way.

by **The_Rock** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:35 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:One major difference I see between the "legacy" Houllier had Phil Thompson and Sammy Lee on his backroom staff. Players and fans of this club who knew what it meant to the fans, Benitez hasn't got that which is why he's still going about it his way, rather than the "Liverpool" way.

Actually its not too essential to have ex-liverpool players or managers to bring the LFC feeling to the locker-room.

What we need are motivators who advocate the stick/carrot approach so that our players give 100% everytime they play (it does not mean they have to play well everytime....just give 100%).

You see how manure players perform ? They always seem to be playing for their lives and their whole squad are filled with millionaires. But look at our team ?

Its like the batman villan "two-face" tossing a coin and deciding if the team gives their all or not every match .... How else can you have a team which gives 100% against beskitas home and 10% to 30% of their ability in the away game against them :Oo:

The players have lost their respect of rafa....thats why they are performing like they can't give a hoot...The "in rafa I trust" "rose-tinted-happy clappy-hand holding brigade" has to realise this.....Even the players don't think rafa is the man to lead them further...so whats wrong with the "its time for a change" clique to think otherwise...

If Mourinho was brought in as a manager...i am sure he will fill his backroom from portugal... And he will do a better job at motivating the players than the coach rafa does....

he.ll i will even make a prediction...if mourinho was brought in next season...he will make our current team champions without any further additions.......

Though have to add, if he gets rid of kuyt, voronin & sells alonso for 20 million....and then brings in a world class striker and winger we will win both the champions and premier league... :buttrock

by **112-1077774096** » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:36 am

bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Did I not put "zero" values on all the teams' home-grown talent, then?

You did Lando and TBPH I didn't notice it so sorry about that. Once I got to the bit about Gerrard being Zero I stopped reading as it was beginning to resemble a Tompkins meander. I would say though, not that it's an excuse or anything, but counting home grown players as zero when trying to establish the worth of the team renders the whole thing meaningless IMHO. Anyway, sorry I got the wrong end of the stick.

The main point is that we are in danger of finishing behind Everton, whose team is not in the same stratosphere as ours in terms of quality. They know it, we know it and everyone else knows it and I can't think of a better way of illustrating how much we have lost our way.

As for Saints post, there are some really incredible stats there. 279 changes to the team so far this season. An average of five changes per match. Incredible really when you think about it. Then we wonder why we aren't consistent.

Probably even more of a worry for the "In Rafa We Trust"ers are his views on the policy and it's success or otherwise. We've been in two Champions League finals and won the FA Cup BECAUSE we change the side. Nothing to do with Gerrards last minute blockbuster against Olympiacos then, nor his wonder goal in the dying seconds against west Ham to take the game into extra time or the comeback from 3-0 down against Milan then? No, it's because we have a tactical genius at the helm and it's because we change the side every week. Hmmmmm. Needless to say however the fact that the top three have long since disappeared into the distance in the league is nothing to do with the "gambles" (good word that).

"If you play THE SAME TEAM ALL OF THE TIME you will find at the end of the season you cannot win trophies". Oh dear. Doesn't he know that nobody has ever won the English premier League by playing the same team in every single game? Doesn't he realise that practically nobody is saying we should play the same team in every single game? Doesn't he realise that nobody with any sense would deny that changing the team against a non-league team at home was fair enough? The problem most of us had was that we subsequently sent eleven players onto the pitch wearing Liverpool shirts who conspired to go behind twice against the said non-league team.

This is the same kind of nonsense which people on here were spouting in the rotation thread six months ago, and even on here it's now acepted as b0ll0cks. We get a quick visit to the "resting prevents injuries" doctrine which was all the rage until the last time Torres got injured (straight after being rested) and we even get a quick visitation to the "delayed gazelle" theory which is clearly alive and well in the mind of the manager as well. Didn't Torres rest against Havant? Are we to believe he should have been rested more, that this would have prevented his injury? Are we to believe and expect after 279 changes to the team that the "delayed gazelle" is actually just around the corner? I'll be watching for evidence of it with great interest.

No it's time to tell it like it is. It's b0ll0cks. It was b0ll0cks four years ago, it was b0ll0cks at the start of this season, and it's b0ll0cks now. There has been no "learning of lessons"
and nor will there be. There have been no "seeing the lights", nor "realisations". What we have is a man who believes the players are merely pieces in a chess game, a man who believes that any success he has had is down to his tactical brilliance and not down to any imput from the players. We have a man who is consumed in his arrogance, who believes he will eventually be proven correct despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. He is a man who I believe the players no longer have time for, and is past his sell by date.

It makes dreadful reading does that interview. It's time for a change.

hallelujah brother :bowdown

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