Liverpool FC Forum

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Ruskiy I wouldn't if I was you, because I'd make you look stupid if it came down to knowledge on football and in particular Liverpool, plus unlike the majority of you lot, I don't need to go and google everything I know it all already.

[account deleted by request]

Just out of interest , Rafa has never taken a point off the Champions since his arrival.

Rafa Benítez hasn't got what it takes in the League
Our analyst, Alex, decided to look at Rafa's league results by league position, it doesn't make for pleasant reading.

Is Rafael Benítez capable of bringing the League Title back to Anfield? This must be the key question on the minds of every Liverpool fan given the recent run of poor form. The key may be in the statistics. Analyse the results by the positions of different opponents home and away and decide for yourself.

Surely the key to any Title bid has to begin at home. Fortress Anfield doesn’t concede many defeats, however the 2007/8 season has already seen six draws in the league and one defeat – 15 points dropped already and the season only just past the halfway point.

Let's look at Rafa's results over the 138 league games since he took over in August 2004 :-

Anfield form:

Top Half : P32 W18 D9 L5 F47 A22 PTS 63 (Ave 1.97)
Bottom Half : P37 W28 D8 L1 F81 A17 PTS 92 (Ave 2.47)
Overall : P69 W46 D17 L6 F128 A39 PTS 155 (Ave 2.24)

Not bad so far, the win percentage of 66% could be a bit higher and 1 in 4 games (25%) ending in a draw is too high.

Break it down further to see the results against the very best and very worst sides :-

Top Three : P10 W2 D3 L5 F7 A11 PTS 8 (Ave 0.80)
Bottom Three : P12 W9 D3 L0 F27 A6 PTS 30 (Ave 2.50)

Too many draws against sides relegated or sides currently in the relegation zone, most recently against Wigan. The results against the top three are shocking, they are good sides, but to have lost five is bad.

Away Form

You’d expect this to be a lot weaker, until you see it laid out in front of you perhaps it is difficult to establish quite how weak it is.

Top Half : P33 W8 D7 L18 F22 A40 PTS 31 (Ave 0.94)
Bottom Half : P36 W19 D8 L9 F56 A31 PTS 65 (Ave 1.81)
Overall : P69 W27 D15 L17 F78 A71 PTS 96 (Ave 1.39)

Winning just 39% on the road is bad enough, to not beat the bottom half of the Premiership away more than 53% of the time is terrible.

Top Three : P7 W0 D0 L7 F2 A12 PTS 0 (Ave 0.00)
Bottom Three : P11 W7 D2 L2 F18 A8 PTS 23 (Ave 2.09)

Not a single point taken from trips to the top three, most other teams have managed at least a point in the time Rafa has been at Anfield – plenty have pinched a point at Anfield! With trips to the top three to come it is a chance to improve that record or it may simply continue. If you wonder why it is only seven games, Liverpool finished third twice.

Extend this record to the top four and Liverpool’s only away win is against current fourth side Everton earlier this season. Come the end of the season that may change given it isn’t a final table, if Liverpool finish fourth as most fans will pray Liverpool do then that win will disappear.

Other League Related Statistics

Liverpool have yet to pick up a point against the Champions home or away under Rafa, even if Arsenal or Chelsea finish as Champions they both drew at Anfield so that would make it one point maximum and a win away to the Champions seems unlikely. The win over Chelsea last season coincided with their descent from the top.

vs Champions : P7 W0 D0 L7 F1 A12 PTS 0 (Ave 0.00)

You’d think Liverpool would beat the bottom side, well most of the time they have – except one season at St Marys. Derby are likely to stay rooted to the bottom.

vs Rock Bottom : P8 W7 D0 L1 F17 A3 PTS 21 (Ave 2.63)


Liverpool’s lack of scoring firepower becomes evident when you split goals by league position :-

vs Top Half : P65 F69 A62 (Ave 1.06 for, 0.95 against)

vs Bottom Half : P73 F137 A48 (Ave 1.86 for, 0.67 against)

So the other top ten sides are near equals of Liverpool in terms of scoring goals, that makes consistently picking up three points very hard. To win the League Liverpool need to be picking up in excess of 2.2 points per game, this they aren’t even managing against the bottom half of the table sides :-

Top Half : P65 W26 D16 L23 F69 A62 PTS 94 (Ave 1.45)

Bottom Half : P73 W47 D16 L10 F137 A48 PTS 157 (Ave 2.14)

Overall : P138 W73 D32 L33 F204 A110 PTS 251 (Ave 1.81)

When Liverpool need to be winning 70%+ of their games overall, they are winning only 64% against bottom half sides and not even 50% against the top half sides. If people wish to excuse the first season and exclude it, Liverpool have still only won 55 out of 99 subsequent Premiership games at 55.56%.

Is that good enough to win the league? Home form that is far from being dominant, the current leaders have won 12 and drawn just one of their 13 home games and while that is not typical of the home form of Champions, winning at least 14 or 15 is in recent times and Liverpool cannot win that many given they’ve already drawn six and lost one.

Home Form Of Champions

2004/5 : P19 W14 D5 L0 F35 A6 PTS 47 (Ave 2.47)

2005/6 : P19 W18 D1 L0 F37 A8 PTS 55 (Ave 2.89)

2006/7 : P19 W15 D2 L2 F46 A12 PTS 49 (Ave 2.47)

Home Form Of Liverpool

2004/5 : P19 W12 D4 L3 F31 A15 PTS 40 (Ave 2.11)

2005/6 : P19 W15 D3 L1 F32 A8 PTS 48 (Ave 2.53)

2006/7 : P19 W14 D4 L1 F39 A7 PTS 46 (Ave 2.42)

Home form has been pretty good for a season or two, not quite as good as the champions. Maintaining that home form and producing good enough away form is the problem. Away form improved for one season with ten away wins in 2005/6, but that form hasn’t been maintained and home form has now slumped as well. With seven games left away from home this season Liverpool would have to win four to equal those 10 away wins, they have to play the top three away so they would either have to win the other four games or win a game at grounds where they’ve never picked up a single point under Rafa.

With success in the Champions League and two finals, it is easy to sympathise with Rafa and wish him to be the manager to bring the Title to Anfield. But the Premiership is the holy grail, after so much success in the Champions League in such a short spell in charge you would hope Liverpool would transfer that success across to the League – or at least show signs of it. But with effectively three different sets of strikers in three and a half seasons – Torres, Crouch, Kuyt, Voronin, Bellamy, Fowler, Morientes, Cisse, Pongolle and Baros to name most of them – and a new batch of players every season, you have to wonder if the team has the stability, strength of squad and mind, and indeed is capable of producing the consistency required to win the League.

Copyright - Alex for LFChistory.net

[KennyisGod....still]

Of course, its a mere coincidence that the scum and ar$e have kept much the same management team for three centuries whereas we've changed ours because "it just isn't working...." As I'v said before, unless you get someone like Morinho and an absolute shedloada cash u dont win titles in england without continuity. Go back 30 years...... the most successful teams had settled management teams too. In our 'glory years' we didn't chop and change managers cuz we had a bad season...... What Rafa took over here was headin for a disgrace, a million miles from the club we knew as man and boy. While we dont seem any nearer to the title as the league stands, thats more because other teams have improved around us at least as well as we have, and yes.....the over rotation hasn't always been to our advantage.

Its not blind faith in Rafa that we need, its allowin what he's bought into the squad to come thru. Torres has been an obvious success, but the only real instant one. Agger will be (providin the toes work properly), Sissoko was a far better player before his awful injury. I know Cisse wasn't a Rafa buy, but again, injury cost us quite possibly a superb striker. Kewell..... an absolute jewell at Leeds..... a dingo since he realised he'd 'arrived' and took his foot off the gas. Kuyt....never a prolific goalscorer, but is there a player on the park that works harder and does more for his team mates? Even Gerrard looks idle sometimes compared to Kuyts work rate.
Face facts, we aint the team we were in the 70's and 80's and its gonna take a miracle to get us above the likes of the scum and ar$e. Chavski have too much money and can buy whoever they want when they need to, even if its merely to stop other clubs buyin a player.
We're a short way down a long painful road ladies and gents, we have a manager that took a team 3 goals down in a CL final and wrung its neck before nickin the trophy. He don't give up (apart from at Readin when he had other things on his mind of course), so why should we?
I had dreams of the title this year, like so many others, but i don't believe the reason we aint won it is cuz of Rafa. Teams around us hav played some sparklin unbelievable football, while we've struggled to get goin at times. He aint blameless, but then nor are the guys pickin up £X00000000 a week are they? We lost whats gonna be our central defensive partnership early in the season, it still aint there yet. We lost one of the most skillfull midfielders in english football thru the same injury, and regardless of 23 mill on Torres, any other money spent has been comparative peanuts alongside some teams.

I admit that I am pro-Rafa, unashamedly so. I also admit we were a better team with Paco, no doubt about it. But I'm big and ugly enuff to realise that we aint where we wanna be partly cuz we can (and are) outbought by clubs with better finances, and also becuz too many players here think they'v got it made. I said before, i wanna see shame on the faces of players after unsuccessful uninspirin games, and I aint seein it. I aint seein passion that this club once lived and breathed. As much as it can be instilled off the pitch, once they cross that white line those players are a team on their own. And right now I see too many players that aint pullin for their mates.

Theres one or two that need this season to run its course, Ryan Babel bein one. He needs more experience in the english game cuz at the minute he looks lost after 20 minutes of toil. Kewell needs to wake up and smell the coffee he's had god knows how long to bring to the boil as he sat takin pay cheques. Voronin...... needs a good diet and some confidence...so maybe a spell in the reserves once fit will do him good. On the bright side, he aint costin too much!! I see alot of criticism here for Aurelio, but I dont believe he's the worst player here.

Rafa's got rid of most of his dud buys, bit the bullet, admitted they wernt for us and sold them on. The most unfortunate thing about foreign managers is they tend to bring in foreign players more than english ones, but be honest - did any1 think Morientes would fail to fulfill  his potential? The boss aint sufferred fools gladly, and I include Kuyt there for any detractors cuz I dont see him as a fool.

We got possibly the most important few weeks of the season comin up, we simply have to secure 4th place regardless of how we do it..... Inter are gona be as hard if not harder than anythin we've faced so far this season, and a 5th round cup tie against barnsley that SHOULD be a piece of cake. The season aint dead, quit mournin and enjoy whats left.

Assumin of course Torres aint too badly injured!!

[LFC2007]

But as I've stated elsewhere, Spurs and Newcastle outspend us but we can finish above them, so where's the difference?

Exactly, and you want Martin Jol to replace Rafa.

Work that one out.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Yes I want Jol because he gets players to play football. You think the reason we're not winning the league is because of money, I don't. Benitez won't win us the league no matter how much money he's given.

[ruskiy playmaker]

Ruskiy I wouldn't if I was you, because I'd make you look stupid if it came down to knowledge on football and in particular Liverpool, plus unlike the majority of you lot, I don't need to go and google everything I know it all already.

Well if you think that we have a better chance at winning the title in the next few seasons if we bring in a new a manager instead of keeping Rafa, then you don't know much about football.  No matter who we bring in as Raffa's replacement they are not going to be able to win us the title for some time because we don't have crazy money to spend.  The new manager would have to start all over again and it would take a him at least a couple of seasons to build an ideal team that can challenge for the title.

Don't you think it's safer to keep Rafa for one more season and see what his new players like Torres, Skertel, Agger, Lucas, Mascherano and Babel can do once they are settled in.  I believe that Rafa is very close to building his ideal team and this summer if he stays, he will get the necessary players to make a serious challenge for the title.

[LFC2007]

Oh, but Jol's had the resources so why can't he win the league?

I don't think the reason we haven't won the league is down to money, but it plays a very significant role in modern day football.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Jol can't win the league because he's has had to buy the 3rd or 4th best options, or players he didn't even want. One reason why I want Jol is because he isn't affraid to give youngsters a go, and British youngsters at that.

As for ruskiy, the reason Benitez won't win the league is because of rotation and his defensive minded tactics. Given that squad of players, a settled side and tactic, we would challenge.

[LFC2007]

I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

[Lando_Griffin]

Dear me.

The point is rafa does not even have a starting 11 .....

Defination from the Rock's football dictionary. Starting 11 means playing your strongest 11 for most of your games..(ie..more than 50% of your games).....Does rafa do that ? 

Nor does Wenger, Grant or Ferguson. They all change their starting line-ups.

I was merely picking the players most would agree are the first choices for each team. (I even excluded Alonso, as it seems that most people wouldn't pick him in their XI.)

[account deleted by request]

Ruskiy I wouldn't if I was you, because I'd make you look stupid if it came down to knowledge on football and in particular Liverpool, plus unlike the majority of you lot, I don't need to go and google everything I know it all already.

Well if you think that we have a better chance at winning the title in the next few seasons if we bring in a new a manager instead of keeping Rafa, then you don't know much about football.  No matter who we bring in as Raffa's replacement they are not going to be able to win us the title for some time because we don't have crazy money to spend.  The new manager would have to start all over again and it would take a him at least a couple of seasons to build an ideal team that can challenge for the title.

Don't you think it's safer to keep Rafa for one more season and see what his new players like Torres, Skertel, Agger, Lucas, Mascherano and Babel can do once they are settled in.  I believe that Rafa is very close to building his ideal team and this summer if he stays, he will get the necessary players to make a serious challenge for the title.

The problem is if you don't believe Rafa gets the best out of players in the League, it doesn't really matter who you buy or how long you give him.

I am still not sure if its the players who lack desire or the Manager who fails to inspire. Certainly I believe that some of our foreign players are more interested in the CL than the Prem league and save their best performances for Europe.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Dear me.

The point is rafa does not even have a starting 11 .....

Defination from the Rock's football dictionary. Starting 11 means playing your strongest 11 for most of your games..(ie..more than 50% of your games).....Does rafa do that ? 

Nor does Wenger, Grant or Ferguson. They all change their starting line-ups.

I was merely picking the players most would agree are the first choices for each team. (I even excluded Alonso, as it seems that most people wouldn't pick him in their XI.)

You can pretty much say who'll be playing for Arsenal, United or Chelsea week in week out, with two, possibly three changes. Our side on the other hand is it's the two or three you can pick with the other 8 being guess work.

There's no stability with us, the players can't build up relationships with one another because they've got a different partner week in week out.

[Lando_Griffin]

Jol can't win the league because he's has had to buy the 3rd or 4th best options, or players he didn't even want. One reason why I want Jol is because he isn't affraid to give youngsters a go, and British youngsters at that.

As for ruskiy, the reason Benitez won't win the league is because of rotation and his defensive minded tactics. Given that squad of players, a settled side and tactic, we would challenge.

Whereas Rafa managed to buy Alves, Simao, Malouda, Vidic, Heinze, Wright-Phillips, etc...

So let me get this perfectly straight:

Martin Jol, despite spending more money than us, failing to overtake us in the league, never winning anything, and getting sacked, is a better manager than Rafa?

Enjoy your biftas, do you? 

[Lando_Griffin]

Dear me.

The point is rafa does not even have a starting 11 .....

Defination from the Rock's football dictionary. Starting 11 means playing your strongest 11 for most of your games..(ie..more than 50% of your games).....Does rafa do that ? 

Nor does Wenger, Grant or Ferguson. They all change their starting line-ups.

I was merely picking the players most would agree are the first choices for each team. (I even excluded Alonso, as it seems that most people wouldn't pick him in their XI.)

You can pretty much say who'll be playing for Arsenal, United or Chelsea week in week out, with two, possibly three changes. Our side on the other hand is it's the two or three you can pick with the other 8 being guess work.

There's no stability with us, the players can't build up relationships with one another because they've got a different partner week in week out.

No, you're absolutely right. They train in isolation, and the tactics aren't thoroughly drilled into them at all.

It's all off-the-cuff Keegan-style. There's no preparation or instruction whatsoever.

And I think you'll find that we tend to only make 3-or-so changes per league match, injuries aside. The big alterations are usually left for the cups.

[burjennio]

Lando_Griffin Posted on Feb. 08 2008,16:52
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Quote (god_bless_john_houlding @ Feb. 08 2008,16:44)
Quote (Lando_Griffin @ Feb. 08 2008,16:41)
Quote (The_Rock @ Feb. 08 2008,12:59)
Quote (Lando_Griffin @ Feb. 08 2008,13:59)
Dear me.

The point is rafa does not even have a starting 11 .....

Defination from the Rock's football dictionary. Starting 11 means playing your strongest 11 for most of your games..(ie..more than 50% of your games).....Does rafa do that ?   

Nor does Wenger, Grant or Ferguson. They all change their starting line-ups.

I was merely picking the players most would agree are the first choices for each team. (I even excluded Alonso, as it seems that most people wouldn't pick him in their XI.)

You can pretty much say who'll be playing for Arsenal, United or Chelsea week in week out, with two, possibly three changes. Our side on the other hand is it's the two or three you can pick with the other 8 being guess work.

There's no stability with us, the players can't build up relationships with one another because they've got a different partner week in week out.

No, you're absolutely right. They train in isolation, and the tactics aren't thoroughly drilled into them at all.

It's all off-the-cuff Keegan-style. There's no preparation or instruction whatsoever.

And I think you'll find that we tend to only make 3-or-so changes per league match, injuries aside. The big alterations are usually left for the cups.

its all the blood loss from his feet - he shot himself there so many times