Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:52 pm

bigmick wrote:How come it worked in Valencia? Feck knows but I'm equally stumped as to how Mark Gonzales and Fernando Torres work out over there too, but they do by all accounts.

Mick, I assume you meant Morientes rather than Torres here, mate?

In any case, I broadly agree with you on this. Whether we've had enough money to win the title or not does not change the fact that we've had enough money to be competitive. I don't want to use lack of money as the excuse as to why we're (still) having trouble breaking down the likes of Birmingham at home, TBPH. The fact is we haven't mounted a genuine title challenge under Rafa yet and he needs to be held accountable for that (the hard questions JBG was referring to in the original post).

That's not to say that I want shut, though. I'd still like to give him one more year to mount a proper challenge. It goes without saying that it would have to be a year with much more stability behind the scenes. I accept that the back room situation with the Yanks cannot be the sole reason why the wheels have come off our title challenge in the past two months but it has played a role. As such, I'd still be prepared to cut Rafa enough slack to give it a proper go next year. Sadly, I don't think he'll get that chance from either the current owners or from DIC, should they take over.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:23 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:How come it worked in Valencia? Feck knows but I'm equally stumped as to how Mark Gonzales and Fernando Torres work out over there too, but they do by all accounts.

Mick, I assume you meant Morientes rather than Torres here, mate?

In any case, I broadly agree with you on this. Whether we've had enough money to win the title or not does not change the fact that we've had enough money to be competitive. I don't want to use lack of money as the excuse as to why we're (still) having trouble breaking down the likes of Birmingham at home, TBPH. The fact is we haven't mounted a genuine title challenge under Rafa yet and he needs to be held accountable for that (the hard questions JBG was referring to in the original post).

That's not to say that I want shut, though. I'd still like to give him one more year to mount a proper challenge. It goes without saying that it would have to be a year with much more stability behind the scenes. I accept that the back room situation with the Yanks cannot be the sole reason why the wheels have come off our title challenge in the past two months but it has played a role. As such, I'd still be prepared to cut Rafa enough slack to give it a proper go next year. Sadly, I don't think he'll get that chance from either the current owners or from DIC, should they take over.

Should we give Benitez another season, it's another year gone without a title. Making it 19 years. 19 years far to bloody long.

Saying that, sacking him and bringing in a new manager, it'll still be 19 years without the league, because I don't see any new manager bringing instant success, league wise. The new man will have to bring in his own players, new staff and new methods. So sacking Benitez will set us back, but keeping him will make it even harder for when the new man comes in. So I think he has to go.

This looks like a contradiction, but this is simplely me heart talking whereas the rest of this post has been me head. But my heart is telling me that next year is our year. Our 19th league title is coming home in the 2008/09 season. Lets start from now on with a positive attitude.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:28 pm

The thing that baffles me is if the reason we haven't mounted a title challege is because Rafa hasn't had sufficient money, whats going to change in the near future? Its highly unlikely that Rafa is suddenly going to be inundated with more money than our rivals. So what the pro-Rafa's are really saying is....... unless we change our manager we are never going to challenge

£/million

Reina 12
Finnan 3
Riise 5
Carra 12
Agger 10
Babel 10
Mascherano 20
Gerrard 40
Pennant 5
Torres 30
Crouch 10
(prices based on what would make me think twice about selling them.)

Bench

Carson 6
Arbeloa 5
Skirtal 8
Alonso 15
Kuyt 7

While we can argue till the cows come home about individual valuations or best team, I think its fair enough to say we have around about £200million worth of players available (if selected), especially when you think I have left out Benayoun, Hyypia, Aurelio, Lucas, Kewell etc

While I wouldn't have the knowledge to put a price on our main rivals first teams and bench I would imagine that the mancs and Chelsea would probably be in excess of ours with Arsenal slightly behind, with the rest of the pack (Everton , Villa, Man city) way behind.

So the only way to catch and beat our rivals is if we either spend much more than they do, or we get our players playing as a team while also playing to their full potential as individuals.

I agree with Mick in that I no longer believe Rafa can win the title, but unless we fail completely this season (no 4th place, no cups) I would still find it hard to resist giving him one more chance.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:41 pm

Saint with all respect, it doesn't matter how much a player is worth, or how much is spent on him. It comes down to ability. United spent nearly 20 million on both Carrick and Hargreaves, when I wouldn't give 20p for the pair. If a player has ability, and lets face it our players do then it doesn't matter how much is spent on them. Our players aren't managed correctly or aren't playing in the right formation or aren't playing reguarlly enough. Our players have the ability to compete, but it's not happening, why? Has to come down to the manager, not the money spent.

United spent 12 million on Ronaldo, is that saying he's on a par with Babel?
Chelsea spent 12 million on Mikel, is that saying he's on a par with Alonso?
Arsenal spent 10 million on Eduardo, is that saying he's on a par with Kuyt?

It comes down to ability of the player and the ability from a manager to get the best out of a player. Not money. You can buy world stars for next to nothing, as clubs have proven over the years. It's not all about 30 million price tags, which is why I don't buy this sh!t about money.

by **redhayesy** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:55 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:I suppose Rafa has always got his first choice option?

I don't think so.

Jol's a good manager, but not on the same level as Rafa.

Who hasn't Benitez got who we wanted or we haven't got the better buy anyway? I heard plenty of names of right wingers being flown around, and although Pennant may not of been our first choice, he's proven to be a good bargain at 5/6 million. Whoelse have we wanted who we've been unable to get or we haven't been able to bring a better replacement in?

Also Jol got Spurs into 5th, where are we? Last time I looked we were 5th, that's a pretty similar record. Jol's signings have been a bigger success than Benitez' no doubt about that. Jol goes to Leverkusen and bring in Berbatov, Benitez brings in Voronin. Jol goes to Leeds and buys Lennon, Benitez gets Carson just to loan him out. Jol went to the lower leagues to find Dawson, Benitez brings in Hobbs (who I'm a huge fan of) but unlike Jol, Benitez decides to loan out our promising kids rather than give them a go. The majority of Jol's signings (the ones he wanted that is) have been of a good quality, Benitez' haven't.

That's the most one-sided argument I've ever read lad - give your head a shake.

Comparing Berbatov to Voronin!?! Try Berba Vs Torres - who wins? That's right - Torres.

Compare Dawson to Agger - who wins? You guessed it - Agger.

Lennon to Carson!?! WTF kind of comparison is that!?! Lennon Vs Mascherano - who wins?

At least be realistic, soft lad.

please keep it going you two i haven"t laughed so much in ages!! but please refrain from verbal insults, it will
spoil what could turn out to be a great disscussion with
loads of laughs along the way!

jol for raffa"s replacement feckin hell i am trying to
keep a straight face whilst replying, especially
from someone who reckons they know alot about
the game, sorry mate you did make yourself look
silly there, but it"s your opinion, keep going.

after all spurs have made no improvement since
jol left have they!

to even mention jol in the same breth as raffa
is a fecking insult to the man, feck me if even spurs recognised jol has no idea how to win major trophys
etc how the feck is he the answer- no argument
i"m afraid but you have cheered me up after a sh1t day
at work so thanks for that gbjh

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:00 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Saint with all respect, it doesn't matter how much a player is worth, or how much is spent on him. It comes down to ability. United spent nearly 20 million on both Carrick and Hargreaves, when I wouldn't give 20p for the pair. If a player has ability, and lets face it our players do then it doesn't matter how much is spent on them. Our players aren't managed correctly or aren't playing in the right formation or aren't playing reguarlly enough. Our players have the ability to compete, but it's not happening, why? Has to come down to the manager, not the money spent.

United spent 12 million on Ronaldo, is that saying he's on a par with Babel?
Chelsea spent 12 million on Mikel, is that saying he's on a par with Alonso?
Arsenal spent 10 million on Eduardo, is that saying he's on a par with Kuyt?

It comes down to ability of the player and the ability from a manager to get the best out of a player. Not money. You can buy world stars for next to nothing, as clubs have proven over the years. It's not all about 30 million price tags, which is why I don't buy this sh!t about money.

No mate what I am trying (and obviously failing ) to get across is its not how much money you have or how much you spend if they don't play as a team or to their potential, or our immediate rivals Everton, Villa and Man City wouldn't even be close.

Rafa has so far failed to get our team playing to its potential consistantly since he came. One off games , cup matches, CL games etc sometimes we fire and sometimes we don't , unfortunately in the league you need to be firing week in week out.

Yes, numerous players have had poor spells of form, but thats always been the case, and thats were other teams seem to have an advantage. Its easier to pick out the ones playing poorly in a settled team than in an ever changing one.

Formational changes and playing players out of position only confuse the issue even more. Is the player playing badly because hes out of form, or because he's playing on the wing when he's a striker?

No- one can deny that money doesn't have a part to play, more money equals better players, but its no good having a Ronaldiniho in the team if he's playing like a Dirk Kuyt.

A managers job first and foremost is to win games by getting the best out of the team over the course of a season, I think we have rarely seen Liverpool play to their best over the last few years.

PS Ronaldo would be worth about £40million in my table btw as its on my valuation not on how much they paid. etc etc

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:10 pm

s@int wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Saint with all respect, it doesn't matter how much a player is worth, or how much is spent on him. It comes down to ability. United spent nearly 20 million on both Carrick and Hargreaves, when I wouldn't give 20p for the pair. If a player has ability, and lets face it our players do then it doesn't matter how much is spent on them. Our players aren't managed correctly or aren't playing in the right formation or aren't playing reguarlly enough. Our players have the ability to compete, but it's not happening, why? Has to come down to the manager, not the money spent.

United spent 12 million on Ronaldo, is that saying he's on a par with Babel?
Chelsea spent 12 million on Mikel, is that saying he's on a par with Alonso?
Arsenal spent 10 million on Eduardo, is that saying he's on a par with Kuyt?

It comes down to ability of the player and the ability from a manager to get the best out of a player. Not money. You can buy world stars for next to nothing, as clubs have proven over the years. It's not all about 30 million price tags, which is why I don't buy this sh!t about money.

No mate what I am trying (and obviously failing ) to get across is its not how much money you have or how much you spend if they don't play as a team or to their potential, or our immediate rivals Everton, Villa and Man City wouldn't even be close.

Rafa has so far failed to get our team playing to its potential consistantly since he came. One off games , cup matches, CL games etc sometimes we fire and sometimes we don't , unfortunately in the league you need to be firing week in week out.

Yes, numerous players have had poor spells of form, but thats always been the case, and thats were other teams seem to have an advantage. Its easier to pick out the ones playing poorly in a settled team than in an ever changing one.

Formational changes and playing players out of position only confuse the issue even more. Is the player playing badly because hes out of form, or because he's playing on the wing when he's a striker?

No- one can deny that money doesn't have a part to play, more money equals better players, but its no good having a Ronaldiniho in the team if he's playing like a Dirk Kuyt.

A managers job first and foremost is to win games by getting the best out of the team over the course of a season, I think we have rarely seen Liverpool play to their best over the last few years.

PS Ronaldo would be worth about £40million in my table btw as its on my valuation not on how much they paid. etc etc

My fault then saint, I've read it the wrong way.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:14 pm

No problem John , my writings as clear as mud sometimes mate

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:15 pm

That's a bit harsh on mud

they were a great music band, don't you remember lonely this christmas

by **Bammo** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:17 pm

Rafa's biggest fault has been his inability to buy world class wingers. Everyone's debated on here til the cows come home about what our best centre back, centre mid and forward pairings are. We have options down the middle.

On the wings? Well, Pennant's pretty good...then there's Kewell who plays a good game once every few months...Benny Noon who plays as a support striker...Babel who by rafa's admission is a forward covering for our lack of wingers...Leto who was relegated to the reserves after Marseille at home...and that's it.

Pennant may get into Chelsea/Man U/Arsenal as a reserve winger but the rest? (I'm classing Babel as a winger for this). I'd gladly take the wingers of any of those clubs over ours. Our lack of decent width is a massive reason why we fail to beat teams.

Knowing our main threat comes from the centre means teams like Wigan can play compact and neutralise our threat. If we had decent wingers we'd stretch defences and provide more space for the midfield and forwards to get chances. The few occasions we've done that (Derby home, Besiktas home, Newcastle away) we've actually looked like a good side playing good football.

If Rafa stays but fails to get good wingers in this summer then I can't see him lasting much longer.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:25 pm

Bammo wrote:Rafa's biggest fault has been his inability to buy world class wingers. Everyone's debated on here til the cows come home about what our best centre back, centre mid and forward pairings are. We have options down the middle.

On the wings? Well, Pennant's pretty good...then there's Kewell who plays a good game once every few months...Benny Noon who plays as a support striker...Babel who by rafa's admission is a forward covering for our lack of wingers...Leto who was relegated to the reserves after Marseille at home...and that's it.

Pennant may get into Chelsea/Man U/Arsenal as a reserve winger but the rest? (I'm classing Babel as a winger for this). I'd gladly take the wingers of any of those clubs over ours. Our lack of decent width is a massive reason why we fail to beat teams.

Knowing our main threat comes from the centre means teams like Wigan can play compact and neutralise our threat. If we had decent wingers we'd stretch defences and provide more space for the midfield and forwards to get chances. The few occasions we've done that (Derby home, Besiktas home, Newcastle away) we've actually looked like a good side playing good football.

If Rafa stays but fails to get good wingers in this summer then I can't see him lasting much longer.

We've got two natural wingers, both out on loan. Anderson and Hammill. Now I'm not saying they're world class (yet) but it's there if we want it.

I'm a huge fan of Pennant, and think he is as good a right winger as there is, for someone who stays out there, and does a wingers job which is to cross and go past people. If he chipped in with a couple more goals he'd be perfect, but I'd rather see him creating 30 chances, than scoring 3 because it's more likely that out of those 30 we'd score more than 3. If he could do both, great, but I don't have a problem with Pennant.

On the left, I always choose Babel for out there, simplely because I think every other option is useless. I don't rate Babel that highly out wide, but he's the lesser of the evils.

But again, next season, Anderson (right) and definately Hammill (left) will be given a go to show what they're capable of at this level. It's the only way they'll learn at this level is if they're playing here week in week out.

by **Bammo** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:32 pm

Personally I rate Pennant as well but as you say, our other out-and-out wingers are on loan. It does frustrate me that Rafa openly admits he has a problem on the left side, playing Babel and Lucas there, despite having young wingers to choose from. I'd rather see a youngster play in their rightful position than a more experienced player played out of experience.

I've just realised how ridiculous that sounds given Babel and Lucas' ages. Surely if they're old enough, Leto is?

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:32 pm

Bammo wrote:Rafa's biggest fault has been his inability to buy world class wingers. Everyone's debated on here til the cows come home about what our best centre back, centre mid and forward pairings are. We have options down the middle.

On the wings? Well, Pennant's pretty good...then there's Kewell who plays a good game once every few months...Benny Noon who plays as a support striker...Babel who by rafa's admission is a forward covering for our lack of wingers...Leto who was relegated to the reserves after Marseille at home...and that's it.

Pennant may get into Chelsea/Man U/Arsenal as a reserve winger but the rest? (I'm classing Babel as a winger for this). I'd gladly take the wingers of any of those clubs over ours. Our lack of decent width is a massive reason why we fail to beat teams.

Knowing our main threat comes from the centre means teams like Wigan can play compact and neutralise our threat. If we had decent wingers we'd stretch defences and provide more space for the midfield and forwards to get chances. The few occasions we've done that (Derby home, Besiktas home, Newcastle away) we've actually looked like a good side playing good football.

If Rafa stays but fails to get good wingers in this summer then I can't see him lasting much longer.

Very true, I've mentioned on here before that Rafa's systems requires a lot of quality on the wings. He was lucky to have Vicente at Valencia, but here he never got a chance to sign a quality winger. It's okay to have Benayoun or Pennant but we need a world beater on the wings. I really think that we'd be a much better side with someone like Joaquin or Alves running at defenders and scaring the sh!t out of them. I mean where would Man U be without Ronaldo right now?

by **bigmick** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:33 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
bigmick wrote:How come it worked in Valencia? Feck knows but I'm equally stumped as to how Mark Gonzales and Fernando Torres work out over there too, but they do by all accounts.

Mick, I assume you meant Morientes rather than Torres here, mate?

Ahem, er yes got the wrong Fernando there mate :blush:

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:43 pm

Bammo wrote:Personally I rate Pennant as well but as you say, our other out-and-out wingers are on loan. It does frustrate me that Rafa openly admits he has a problem on the left side, playing Babel and Lucas there, despite having young wingers to choose from. I'd rather see a youngster play in their rightful position than a more experienced player played out of experience.

I've just realised how ridiculous that sounds given Babel and Lucas' ages. Surely if they're old enough, Leto is?

When I seen Leto play in the first team, he did look out of sorts, whereas Babel and Lucas look comfortable in the 1st team, so I wouldn't worry about age a great deal.

But like you said, a natural left winger would be a better solution than a forward playing there. Haven't we learned our lesson at this club, or is it in the contract of every forward other than the main scoring one, you have to play on the wing at some time. Going back to Heskey, Diouf, Cisse, and this season Voronin, Kuyt and Babel. All forwards who've been shoved onto the wing at some point. I would rather see Leto out there than a out of place forward, even if Leto isn't the answer, he can only learn from playing. At the start of the year, when he was given a couple of games it was here and there, that's no good for anyone nevermind a youngster. They need to be given at least 7/8 games straight in the side. They'll gain confidence with each game and it'll also tell you as a manager if they're good enough to cut it. If they play well after a SUSTAINED run in the side you know there's something there, if they're still struggling and finding it awkward as well as showing no signs of getting it right, you know you have a youngster who isn't likely to be what we need.

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