Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:03 pm

I'm not for one second trying to undermine what Benitez has done for us, but to think he's made us a force in Europe again is nonesense. We've always been a force right back from 65 where we cheated out of the European Cup by Inter Milan (hopefully history won't repeat itself). Benitez may of gotten us into the European Cup year in year out, but as I've already said, he's got us there by finishing in the top 4, not exactly champions for a competition named the CHAMPIONS League is it?

by **redtrader74** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:08 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:One reason why we only in the Champions League before Benitez is because for a long period of time, it was only the CHAMPIONS who made the competition, now as we've proven you can come 5th and enter it. You can come 4th, and enter it, what have 2nd,3rd,4th been champions of to enter the CHAMPIONS League.

Also, you're complaining Houllier conceeded 4 to Alaves, Benitez conceeded two to Havant and bloody Waterlooville. Also under Houllier we beat Barcelona and Roma on our way to the UEFA Cup, as well as beating Bayern Munich in the Super Cup. So anyone who think we weren't a European side before Benitez is well and truly wrong.

Lets be serious for a minute, putting aside your dislike for Rafa do you honestly believe that since Rafa arrived our European standing has not been enhanced considerably?

I won't denegrate GH's Uefa Cup win, i really liked him and was at Anfield against Roma (Heskey a monster that night), i was as happy as anyone, but we all know it has become a second rate competition over the last 10 years, and great that 2001 was, nobody feared us then or even considered us threats, they do know. Surely something that the Manager has done well? No?

by **Igor Zidane** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:10 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:One reason why we only in the Champions League before Benitez is because for a long period of time, it was only the CHAMPIONS who made the competition, now as we've proven you can come 5th and enter it. You can come 4th, and enter it, what have 2nd,3rd,4th been champions of to enter the CHAMPIONS League.

Also, you're complaining Houllier conceeded 4 to Alaves, Benitez conceeded two to Havant and bloody Waterlooville. Also under Houllier we beat Barcelona and Roma on our way to the UEFA Cup, as well as beating Bayern Munich in the Super Cup. So anyone who think we weren't a European side before Benitez is well and truly wrong.

John i don't think it's fair of you to devalue the achievments in the champions league,just to make a point against rafa. The facts are there for all to see. He's proven on the european stage mate.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:12 pm

The success in 01 was very much like 05. We weren't the force of yesteryear (still a big name around Europe don't get me wrong, but didn't put the fear of god into sides as we used to do) It's such a very similar scanerio and the only reason think it isn't is because the UEFA isn't as glamourous. But when you haven't won a European trophy for over 15 years, even the UEFA is a great benchmark. And it was that success that put us back on the map, not the european cup in 05. I'll admit in europe we've come on leaps and bounds under Benitez, but to think it's down to him why we're a force again isn't fair on what Houllier achieved.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:15 pm

This isn't me taking away the success of Benitez because I don't like the fella, I just think people are refusing to accept what Houllier also achieved.

by **megabomberman** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:15 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I'm not for one second trying to undermine what Benitez has done for us, but to think he's made us a force in Europe again is nonesense. We've always been a force right back from 65 where we cheated out of the European Cup by Inter Milan (hopefully history won't repeat itself). Benitez may of gotten us into the European Cup year in year out, but as I've already said, he's got us there by finishing in the top 4, not exactly champions for a competition named the CHAMPIONS League is it?

True true, even though you have to remember there was a stage where we were somewhat in the doldrums where we seemingly always found ourselves 3-0 down in the bloody uefa cup and making it 3-2..... paris saint germain for example...

But even though its slightly off topic, the argument that benetiz only cares about europe is misguided i feel. He is a realist.. He sets up his teams to play like that (eg not trying to beat arsenal with flare) and likewise in the league, I think benetiz knows liverpool aren't anywhere near challenging for the league this year, and to keep to fans happy he's really pressing for the fa cup as well as europe to make that up.

I keep hearing people also rave on about needing wingers and such, but benetiz despite his idosyncracies isn't a fool, he knows what he's doing. The only problem is the media, they give his team enough of a bashing and it just causes rafa to come accross overly defensive. I have no doubt rafa is sizing up ways to replace crouch voronin and kuyt, and he's definitely looking for a new left back too. His unhapiness is apparent from the amount of shuffling that has gone on in that position (risse, arbeloa, finnan and aurelio)

have faith

by **Igor Zidane** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:18 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:This isn't me taking away the success of Benitez because I don't like the fella, I just think people are refusing to accept what Houllier also achieved.

Agreed on that point mate.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:19 pm

Well correct me if I'm wrong pal but weren't we 3-0 down to Milan under Benitez? Weren't we 4 minutes from going out in the European Cup in 05 against Olympiakos because we needed to score THREE goals? Again we had to win our remaining THREE games this season but yet this is the european genius eh?

by **megabomberman** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:28 pm

True yes, but I think you will agree the circumstances were slightly different...

I'm talking about going away in Europe and getting stuffed 3-0 two years in a row (If i remember correctly) and leaving ourselves with far too much to do at Anfield, and if i also remember correctly these weren't exactly in the later stages of tournaments.

Regardless of the great football Liverpool were playing under evans at times it seemed directionless. At least under Benitez there seems to be a plan, a plan to breakdown the likes of Juve and Barca, I think any team would shake at the thought of playing Liverpool in the Champs league, it now has to be considered one of the toughest draws...

Something I don't think either of us could have said between the 90s and before Benitez came in?

by **glenbuck patriot** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:08 pm

Let's put things into perspective, take the emotion out and look at the facts, on two points raised.

Why had we only qualified twice for the champions league/european cup prior to Rafa arriving.... simple, up until '96 there was only ONE qualifying position, from '96 - '98 TWO, '98 - '01 THREE, since '01 there has been the FOUR, and we have qualified every season (but for 02-03) for the '05-06 season we qualified by the virtue of Istanbul, even though we finished fifth.

If you use the same perameters Rafa now has in the League, namely FOUR Champions League places, Liverpool would have qualified 12 times since we last won the league in '89-'90. OR to put it another way FAILED to qualify 5 times in seventeen years[B]

On the point of Liverpool's reputation as a big club in Europe being deminished/finished prior to the arrival of Rafa, EUEFA/FIFA didn't seem to think so as we were apponinted a founder member of G14 in 2000, a full ten years after winning our last Championship, you could argue that was down to past glories, or could it be that we WERE still a big club, one of the top 14 in the eye's of Football's Governing Bodies.

These point's like all statistics are probably irrelevant............ there's only one slight problem, thery're fact.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:13 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Well correct me if I'm wrong pal but weren't we 3-0 down to Milan under Benitez? Weren't we 4 minutes from going out in the European Cup in 05 against Olympiakos because we needed to score THREE goals? Again we had to win our remaining THREE games this season but yet this is the european genius eh?

Come on gbjh you're just making a fool of yourself. That AC MILAN side was one of the best football teams in the last 15 or 20 years, it's ridiculous to compare them with the likes of PSG. We had absolutely no right to win that game, the class of the squads was miles apart. No other manager in the world would have won that game with our squad.

There are very few managers in the world who are on the same level of genius as Rafael Benitez. :bowdown

by **DAV** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:22 pm

the words Legend and great keep getting used.
Now think about in football with managers who are legends.
Shanks,paisley,fagan (even though he was cut short because of things that happend off the field)Dalglish for is double.Sad to say it ferguson and wenger.Clough,revie. Maybe even mourinho. i have missed many more.
So is RB?
I personally dont think so, as all the managers above have won their domestic competion. Does winning the league make you a legend. Well it would seem so. I'm sure Leeds and blackburn would class their league winning managers as legends.
As winning a cup can be done by luck, and somewhere down the line often is. A league campaign in my opinion shows what a manager is made of.
I just wondered what people thoughts were.
Maybe my assessment is wrong and i will learn something.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:23 pm

I fail to see how anyone can argue about Rafa's European prowess, 2 CL finals in three years is not something achieved easily. Just as I cant agree with the poster who says

I think benetiz knows liverpool aren't anywhere near challenging for the league this year

Rafa said we were going for the league AS OUR PRIORITY this season. He wouldn't be saying that if he hadn't thought we had a good chance or our team wasn't good enough.

I certainly believe the team was good enough to challenge for the title. For whatever reason it failed to materialise, I don't think you can honestly say that our team wasn't good enough to challenge, maybe not good enough to win it without a lot of luck and some outstanding performances throughout the team , but to my mind we were more than good enough to mount a challenge.

by **heimdall** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:38 pm

The thing which is becoming very apparent here is that the people who like Rafa judge him purely on his European successes and don't really care about the league whilst those who don't rate him as a manager rate him more on his performance in the league. I guess you al my now no which side of the fence I'm on, in fact I haven't even seen that fence in quite a while, it's way off in the distance

I'll be the first to congratulate Rafa for our often miraculous success in Europe, we constantly play like underdogs but somehow we win, which is nice. My problem with the genius tag is that he is spectacularly unable to transfer this kind of performance into the premiership and that is why I still want rid of him, even after having beaten the mighty Sunderland at home :eyebrow

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:34 pm

heimdall wrote:The thing which is becoming very apparent here is that the people who like Rafa judge him purely on his European successes and don't really care about the league whilst those who don't rate him as a manager rate him more on his performance in the league. I guess you al my now no which side of the fence I'm on, in fact I haven't even seen that fence in quite a while, it's way off in the distance

I'll be the first to congratulate Rafa for our often miraculous success in Europe, we constantly play like underdogs but somehow we win, which is nice. My problem with the genius tag is that he is spectacularly unable to transfer this kind of performance into the premiership and that is why I still want rid of him, even after having beaten the mighty Sunderland at home

Why do you seem to hate our manager so much ive never heard you say one good word about him.

Ok fans are split some think Raffas time is up and others believe he should stay, but even the ones who think Raffa hsa gone past his sell by date but there venom is not like yours against the man.

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