My indictment of the rafa benitez regime

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby puroresu » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:32 pm

LittleHobo wrote:the reason i pick mourinho is because he has the ability to turn a good player into a great player

the players love him and you can see that in their performance, effort and the way they progress

his success with porto shows he can do it without the big budget

he has charisma and confidence like muhammed ali and whether or not you like him he does turn his players into winners

Its true.  Martin O'Neil has the same qualities in the sense he and Mourinho can get the players to hit there maximum everytime they take to the field.    I believe the interviews Jose would give effected the players.  The chelsea players seemed to respond to the things he said in the media.  Whatever he said seemed to have the right effects mentally on the players.  People will argue he had WC players so it was easier but its not as simple as that.  Mentally they have to be right.  The last 10 years of Real Madrid shows u that its not just about having top quality players and just expecting them to play.
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Postby metalhead » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:32 pm

s@int wrote:The one thing that makes me uncertain (which I hate being, because it makes arguing so much harder) is how would you all feel if we go on to win the CL or FA CUP. Would you not then want to give him another season? Or has it now gone so far that you would still want him to go?

I would definitley give him another season, because he would answer my question that he can still do it.
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Postby woof woof ! » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:36 pm

Outstanding post JB even though I don't agree with all of the points you've made.

We certainly do look to be going backwards this season BUT as others have alluded to, what will be our reaction if "Rafa's regime" lifts the CL trophy and the FA cup this season ? Perhaps some will say it's just papering over the cracks ? .

Appreciate the real concerns and opinions expressed in your post but lets not bury the fella until he's actually dead.
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Postby puroresu » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:39 pm

s@int wrote:The one thing that makes me uncertain (which I hate being, because it makes arguing so much harder) is how would you all feel if we go on to win the CL or FA CUP. Would you not then want to give him another season? Or has it now gone so far that you would still want him to go?

I would still want him to go regardless.  I love cup success and winning the CL again would be amazing but I still dont believe Rafa has what it takes to get us close to the Top 3.  I dont think its simply about money as I think Rafa isnt the best judge of players.  If we were within  7 - 8 points of the leaders I would say his close but we aint close at all.
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Postby burjennio » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:40 pm

heimdall Posted on Feb. 01 2008,15:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (burjennio @ Feb. 01 2008,14:04)
Quote 
maybe we could get Pako or King Kenny in until the end of the season


You are seriously on a wind up. Either bring in a number 2 or a guy that hasnt amnaged in 10 years.

Earth to Heimdall, come in heimdall.....

Are you suggesting that King Kenny couldn't do the job, that's herecy isn't it   

I would like to see Pako given a chance, Rafa pushed him out because they disagreed and look how successful we've been with just Rafa in charge!!!

To all those who disagree with the original post, I doubt you have actually read it properly but if you disagree with it then can you please for once come with some counter arguments instead of the same old tedious answers;

a) We are constantly unlucky
b) Rafa's not had enough money, despite £20 million for Torres, £10 million for Kuyt, Babel etc etc
c) It's all the owners fault despite us being  in the league 3 out of the 4 seasons rafa's been in charge.

Also someone please, and I'm getting fecking bored of asking this question without getting an answer, explain why Rafa doesn't play his best players, i.e why he plays Kewell and Kuyt instead of Babel and Crouch.


This season would have been totally different without the politics, no doubt. Rafa has not spent not been able to spend the money PER PLAYER that ManU or Chelsea have. Fact. In previous seasons Rafa has tried to spread his transfer kitty too thin, trying to strengthen numerous positions with average players because the demands were immediate. Perhaps in hindsight he may well have spent the £15m on Alves or the £12m on Simao that at the time he couldnt have because he felt other positions had to be strengthened. This is the 1st season he has had almost the same budget as the other 2, and lets be honest Torres has been class, Babel will get better and better and Benayoun has chipped in when required. Other positions need reinforced too, I know things look bad at the minute. I myself have questioned the boss as well, but ive also stepped back and looked at all the contributing factors. There is a lot of blame to lay in regards to our current misfortunes. Starting with the boys who pull on that red shirt and walk onto that hallowed turf every week, a can think of some who should not like what they see in the mirror every morning staring back at them. Rafas made mistakes, so has everybody else, Ive said it a thousand times in the last month its about sticking together, getting behind the coach, the players, the staff, the cooks, the cleaning ladies, the mascots, the dude that paints the lines and f#ck it, even the Owners. Lets start tomorrow, drive the boys home, get the 1st win of 2008 in the bag and continue from there the only way is up with the right attitude. Last point.  Comments such as "I said a year ago Rafa wasnt good enough" are diplorable and nothing more than egocentric posters trying to take some sort of perverse victory from the clubs current predicament. Even if you have previously stated that you believe Rafa isnt the man to take the club forward why would you feel the need to bring it up other than to feed your own arrogance. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I will respect that right. However some opinions offer no such benefit other than to make the protaganist feel important. the bullsh1t needs to stop now - get behind the team, stop this petty squabbling and grow up  :glare:
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:42 pm

puroresu wrote:
s@int wrote:The one thing that makes me uncertain (which I hate being, because it makes arguing so much harder) is how would you all feel if we go on to win the CL or FA CUP. Would you not then want to give him another season? Or has it now gone so far that you would still want him to go?

I would still want him to go regardless.  I love cup success and winning the CL again would be amazing but I still dont believe Rafa has what it takes to get us close to the Top 3.  I dont think its simply about money as I think Rafa isnt the best judge of players.  If we were within  7 - 8 points of the leaders I would say his close but we aint close at all.

I agree, I want Benitez to go whatever happens this season, because under him we will never win the league and IF we win anything this year he'll keep his job for another 3 years and it'll be another 3 years without a league title. Which would be 21 years and for a club of our size, it'd be 21 to many.
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4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby puroresu » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:43 pm

But Rafa to me was making the same mistakes this season as he did last season before the Klinsmaan situation.  He was still rotating for no reason other than "to keep players fresh".  The football was still no more adventurous than last year even though we all hoped this would be the year he would let the chains loose.
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:44 pm

puroresu wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
The_Rock wrote:So lets do a tally of those who think rafa should stay at all costs and those who think its time for a change...

Time for a change of manager
1)Rock - mourinho
2)Pewee -
3)Bamaga - Hiddink
4)Lynds = ciggy
5)JBG - Mounrinho
6)puroresu
7)Saint - Mounrinho
8)BigMick -
9)Dav
10)Lakes
11)anyone else i miss....sorry


Rafa stay at all cost
1)Lando
2)Sabre
3)LFC_2007



Please feel free to amend....and lets see finally if fans here think its time for a change or not....

One of things i dont have a clue about is how would be beter than Rafa.

Mourinho is a good Prem manager but i am not sure he would fit in under the new owners.

I still side on the " bring in a English manager with a old school bootroom"

They only way i could see this was if we had 4 or 5 old liverpool players back at the club.

If  Mourinho did get the job i woul still like to see some of our old players come back into the fold at the club.

when you look at the prem there has only ever been 4 managers that have won it so finding a proven manager in the prem is hard.

Mourinho appointed Steve Clarke or kept him on from the Ranieri regime so he could appoint a LFC guy.

I like the way Dutch teams set up.  I think Van Basten would play a 4-3-3 system and get us playing some real expansive football.  I think he would have contacts in the right places in Holland and if anyone can judge a player it should be him.  I know he hasnt been at clubs but some people can make the jump from international to club management.  Its a long shot I know but like I said I am just naming the current available Managers.

He has no experience of club management, he's a rookie, a complete unknown quantity at this level. Just because he's from Holland which is closely associated with expansive football doesn't mean he'd be a successful manager in England.

The only manager anybody can reasonably justify as a replacement for Rafa is Mourinho, and yet, it's an absolutely valid point to make that without resources similar to those he was privy to at Chelsea (Avram Grant has been relatively successful in his short time there ffs!), he may well struggle to make a title challenge with us. I also question whether he'd put up with our current owners, and whether our owners would put up with him. If they can't communicate with Rafa effectively, what is there to suggest they'd be able to communicate effectively with one of the most abrupt men in football?

Then again, if as some have suggested we need to start playing free-flowing attractive football, Mourinho is hardly recognised to employ such a philosiphy in his teams so how can he be considered a candidate? He employs a mechanical style of play, and despite playing some pretty attractive football at times, it really was obligatory given the wealth of quality he had at his disposal (because he had access to astronomical amounts of cash).

Mourinho is not without his risks.

If being proven in the Prmiership is what matters, and if Rafa's La Liga record counts for absolutely nothing, I don't see how any other candidate barring Mourinho and possibly Dalglish, can be considered.
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Postby puroresu » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:49 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
puroresu wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
The_Rock wrote:So lets do a tally of those who think rafa should stay at all costs and those who think its time for a change...

Time for a change of manager
1)Rock - mourinho
2)Pewee -
3)Bamaga - Hiddink
4)Lynds = ciggy
5)JBG - Mounrinho
6)puroresu
7)Saint - Mounrinho
8)BigMick -
9)Dav
10)Lakes
11)anyone else i miss....sorry


Rafa stay at all cost
1)Lando
2)Sabre
3)LFC_2007



Please feel free to amend....and lets see finally if fans here think its time for a change or not....

One of things i dont have a clue about is how would be beter than Rafa.

Mourinho is a good Prem manager but i am not sure he would fit in under the new owners.

I still side on the " bring in a English manager with a old school bootroom"

They only way i could see this was if we had 4 or 5 old liverpool players back at the club.

If  Mourinho did get the job i woul still like to see some of our old players come back into the fold at the club.

when you look at the prem there has only ever been 4 managers that have won it so finding a proven manager in the prem is hard.

Mourinho appointed Steve Clarke or kept him on from the Ranieri regime so he could appoint a LFC guy.

I like the way Dutch teams set up.  I think Van Basten would play a 4-3-3 system and get us playing some real expansive football.  I think he would have contacts in the right places in Holland and if anyone can judge a player it should be him.  I know he hasnt been at clubs but some people can make the jump from international to club management.  Its a long shot I know but like I said I am just naming the current available Managers.

He has no experience of club management, he's a rookie, a complete unknown quantity at this level. Just because he's from Holland which is closely associated with expansive football doesn't mean he'd be a successful manager in England.

The only manager anybody can reasonably justify as a replacement for Rafa is Mourinho, and yet, it's an absolutely valid point to make that without resources similar to those he was privy to at Chelsea (Avram Grant has been relatively successful in his short time there ffs!), he may well struggle to make a title challenge with us. I also question whether he'd put up with our current owners, and whether our owners would put up with him. If they can't communicate with Rafa effectively, what is there to suggest they'd be able to communicate effectively with one of the most abrupt men in football?

Then again, if as some have suggested we need to start playing free-flowing attractive football, Mourinho is hardly recognised to employ such a philosiphy in his teams so how can he be considered a candidate? He employs a mechanical style of play, and despite playing some pretty attractive football at times, it really was obligatory given the wealth of quality he had at his disposal (because he had access to astronomical amounts of cash).

Mourinho is not without his risks.

If being proven in the Prmiership is what matters, and if Rafa's La Liga record counts for absolutely nothing, I don't see how any other candidate barring Mourinho and possibly Dalglish, can be considered.

I dont think someone has to come with a real impressive CV to be able to do a good job.  I mean Wenger was coaching in Japan and nobody had a clue who he was when arsenal got him.  However they obviously spoke to the right people and believed he was the best guy for the job.  The rest is history.

I aint saying van basten would be my number 1 choice but he would be available.  If Holland won Euro 2008 i'm sure plenty wouldnt mind him.  Is Hiddink leaving Russia or is it a case where England doesnt interest him?
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:52 pm

puroresu wrote:But Rafa to me was making the same mistakes this season as he did last season before the Klinsmaan situation.  He was still rotating for no reason other than "to keep players fresh".  The football was still no more adventurous than last year even though we all hoped this would be the year he would let the chains loose.

Again I agree here, the nonsense that's gone on behind the scenes is just an excuse for what has been a disgraceful season overall.

We may still be in the champions league, but we had to scrape through just like 2005. And the FA Cup games have been a joke from start to finish.
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3) FIRST WILL ALWAYS BE FIRST AND SECOND WILL ALWAYS BE NOTHING.
4) If Torres has scored 60 league goals for Liverpool by the start of the 2011/12 season, I'll say he's better than Owen.
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:52 pm

If they can't communicate with Rafa effectively, what is there to suggest they'd be able to communicate effectively with one of the most abrupt men in football?



Rafa hardly has a reputation for being easy to deal with. He has had bust ups with various members of staff, owners etc etc
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Postby puroresu » Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:54 pm

s@int wrote:
If they can't communicate with Rafa effectively, what is there to suggest they'd be able to communicate effectively with one of the most abrupt men in football?



Rafa hardly has a reputation for being easy to deal with. He has had bust ups with various members of staff, owners etc etc

Its a good point.  Its easy to blame the Yanks but maybe the communication problems have just as much to do with Rafa.
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:04 pm

puroresu wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
puroresu wrote:
lakes10 wrote:
The_Rock wrote:So lets do a tally of those who think rafa should stay at all costs and those who think its time for a change...

Time for a change of manager
1)Rock - mourinho
2)Pewee -
3)Bamaga - Hiddink
4)Lynds = ciggy
5)JBG - Mounrinho
6)puroresu
7)Saint - Mounrinho
8)BigMick -
9)Dav
10)Lakes
11)anyone else i miss....sorry


Rafa stay at all cost
1)Lando
2)Sabre
3)LFC_2007



Please feel free to amend....and lets see finally if fans here think its time for a change or not....

One of things i dont have a clue about is how would be beter than Rafa.

Mourinho is a good Prem manager but i am not sure he would fit in under the new owners.

I still side on the " bring in a English manager with a old school bootroom"

They only way i could see this was if we had 4 or 5 old liverpool players back at the club.

If  Mourinho did get the job i woul still like to see some of our old players come back into the fold at the club.

when you look at the prem there has only ever been 4 managers that have won it so finding a proven manager in the prem is hard.

Mourinho appointed Steve Clarke or kept him on from the Ranieri regime so he could appoint a LFC guy.

I like the way Dutch teams set up.  I think Van Basten would play a 4-3-3 system and get us playing some real expansive football.  I think he would have contacts in the right places in Holland and if anyone can judge a player it should be him.  I know he hasnt been at clubs but some people can make the jump from international to club management.  Its a long shot I know but like I said I am just naming the current available Managers.

He has no experience of club management, he's a rookie, a complete unknown quantity at this level. Just because he's from Holland which is closely associated with expansive football doesn't mean he'd be a successful manager in England.

The only manager anybody can reasonably justify as a replacement for Rafa is Mourinho, and yet, it's an absolutely valid point to make that without resources similar to those he was privy to at Chelsea (Avram Grant has been relatively successful in his short time there ffs!), he may well struggle to make a title challenge with us. I also question whether he'd put up with our current owners, and whether our owners would put up with him. If they can't communicate with Rafa effectively, what is there to suggest they'd be able to communicate effectively with one of the most abrupt men in football?

Then again, if as some have suggested we need to start playing free-flowing attractive football, Mourinho is hardly recognised to employ such a philosiphy in his teams so how can he be considered a candidate? He employs a mechanical style of play, and despite playing some pretty attractive football at times, it really was obligatory given the wealth of quality he had at his disposal (because he had access to astronomical amounts of cash).

Mourinho is not without his risks.

If being proven in the Prmiership is what matters, and if Rafa's La Liga record counts for absolutely nothing, I don't see how any other candidate barring Mourinho and possibly Dalglish, can be considered.

I dont think someone has to come with a real impressive CV to be able to do a good job.  I mean Wenger was coaching in Japan and nobody had a clue who he was when arsenal got him.  However they obviously spoke to the right people and believed he was the best guy for the job.  The rest is history.

I aint saying van basten would be my number 1 choice but he would be available.  If Holland won Euro 2008 i'm sure plenty wouldnt mind him.  Is Hiddink leaving Russia or is it a case where England doesnt interest him?

Just to sum up my point;

The risk of going for a manager who has no experience in English football is greater than the risk of persisting with Rafa as our manager until next season.

Obligatory [/IMHO].

The chance of another Wenger popping up is remote, and the EPL is more competitive and harder to win now than it was when he took charge of Arsenal.

If you want another manager with a 5-year plan, go for an untested manager who lacks experience in English football.

If you want success in the league as soon as is possible, go for a candidate who is tested in the league. Unfortunately, all circumstances being relatively equal, there is no manager who qualifies in this category. The only one close is Mourinho, the next is Dalglish.

Obviously, in my view, these points are academic because I want Rafa to stay on until next season and I think he will stay.
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Postby The_Rock » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:08 pm

21 - 10 :buttrock

Time for a change of manager
1)Rock - Mourinho
2)Pewee -
3)Heimdall - Pako or King Kenny but seriously mourinho
4)Bamaga - Hiddink
5)Lynds = ciggy - she hates mourinho so i am not sure....
6)JBG - Mourinho
7)puroresu - Mourinho or Van Basten
8)BigMick - i think he mentioned mourinho
9)Dav -
10)Lakes -
11)Little Hobo - Mourinho
12)Sarge -
13)Penguins - King Kenny or Mark Hughes
14)club_Levis -
15)teamleader1 -
16)Rockthekop - Mourinho
17)slickrick - mourinho
18)tommycockles -
19)parchpea -
20)god_bless_john_houlding - Martin Jol
21)JohnBull -


Rafa to stay until end of his contract.
1)Lando
2)Sabre
3)burjennio
4)Igor Zidane
5)Dundalk
6)Zi-Dan Agger

Rafa to stay as manager for next season:
1)LFC2007
2)ruskiy playmaker
3)metalhead
4)babu

Uncertain
1)Saint - Mounrinho
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Postby LFC2007 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:12 pm

s@int wrote:
If they can't communicate with Rafa effectively, what is there to suggest they'd be able to communicate effectively with one of the most abrupt men in football?



Rafa hardly has a reputation for being easy to deal with. He has had bust ups with various members of staff, owners etc etc

Bust ups?

Disagreements on how to move forward, and in most of those scenarios I can't see how he's acted improperly to any great extent.

At Valencia he left because of a lack of support from the top, he felt it would be difficult to make any real progression without this support.

Here, he disagreed with Pako on footballing issues, on how to move forward. Pako left - staff come and go in football, nothing unusual there.

Here, his owners sh@t on him, and couldn't communicate with him. Where were they? In America. Rafa's been here all the time, he's not once objected to speaking with them.

Mourinho is very abrupt in the press, I've no doubt that had the owners stayed away as much as they have done with Rafa, I imagine he wouldn't have tolerated it. Had he got wind of the Klinsmann meeting do you think he'd keep it all hush hush in the press?

I don't, and I think my point remains valid.
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