Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:11 am

I would say if I was guessing, that on this forum anyway (and I'm sure it wouldn't be representative of the match going crowd as the vast majority on here don't go) that there is around a 50/50 split of those who think Rafa is doing good stuff for the long-term and should stay, and those who think it's time for a change at the end of the season. Just to cloud the waters even further, some of us think he is doing good stuff for the long term but still think it might be right at the end of the season to consider a change.

That said, I reckon if you asked just about any sensible observer to look at our current situation, our manager is being put in a position on a week to week basis which is absolutely impossible to work in.

Lets look at it. We were expected to go a lot closer in the league than we have, and we are out of the title race. For whatever reason, the players and the team have performed below expectations. What would the manager normally do?

1. He'd go out and buy some players in January. It's pretty much as obvious as the nose on your face that we need a striker. Annelka has gone to Chelsea, Berbatov is likely going to go to man Utd, and we aren't in for anybody. This nonsesne about Rafa saying we are happy with the players we've got, or "we've got enough players" is sheer diplomacy on his part IMHO. I don't believe the owners are backing him in the transfer market. It might be because they don't rate him, or it might be because they're skint, but whatever, they aren't backing him as of right now. I know we've bought a centre-half but that will probably be as a result of a long term committment IMHO.

2. He'd turn around and say, "these players are playing for a place in the squad next season. If things don't improve, heads will roll". Why doesn't he do that? well obviously because the players will no doubt think if anyone's head is going to roll, it won't be theirs it'll be the managers. How can he possibly be expected to motivate players if they're of the opinion that they are just marking time until the new bloke comes in?

3. He'd drop half the first team and bring some of the reserve players in. Once again not really an option as he would be accused (by me no doubt) of over-rotation, and I am convinced it is this issue which has galvanised the owners disrespect for him.

So the manager is in a corner, backed in with nowhere to go it seems to me. He has seemingly no kitty to bolster the squad. He is undermined at every turn in the press with story after story about Capello, Klinnsman etc going undenied by anyone at the club. The players, now that any hopes of the title have gone appear to have given up the ghost and lost belief, while his motivational powers are significantly diminished by the uncertainty surrounding his position. He essentially has to get players who were all fired up for a title challenge, to get all fired up for a fourth place challenge which isn't easy.

I have criticised him many times, but think the club ought really to clear up some issues outstanding. At the very least he deserves backing for the remainder of the season, but he certainly doesn't deserve the way it's been handled at the moment.

by **Kharhaz** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:31 am

A lot of the hassle has been self induced by rafa, the outburst about signing players in time, playing players out of form, and the general tinkering of the team. It doesnt sit well with a lot of people. The game against reading, what was going on there? Backroom changes, pako and heighway leaving, since these incidents rafa seems to have been struggling. Yes we have had some good performances and results but just "some" when we should have had many. Rafa is very stubborn and at times acts like a spoilt kid who doesnt get his own way. If hes been backed into a corner he is as much to blame as anyone else. For the record I believe rafa is the man to take Liverpool forward but he has to look at himself and the club and say ok, a second opinion would be helpful. It seems at times he is taking on far too much due to his stubbornness to show that he is always right. No one man is perfect and unfortunately that goes for rafa also. A show of support from the chairmen would be nice but how many times would they have to show it? All the negative press, different stories coming out, they would never have time to press on with the behind the scenes stuff because they would be helding press conferences showing there support for rafa every 5 minutes.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:31 am

Not to worry Mick, I come bearing rumours. DIC are back in with a bid to take over from the two losers.
Whether it will be in time to save our season or not is another matter.Link to takeover

Maybe if they take over, Rafa will be given a war chest, a statement of support and the best present of all Parry gets to take the bullet instead. I can dream can't I ?

by **bigmick** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:38 am

s@int wrote:Not to worry Mick, I come bearing rumours. DIC are back in with a bid to take over from the two losers.

Well whoever is the manager, you can't seriously run a football club like we are at the moment and expect to be successsful. It really has been a joke since these two took over, and I hope that the rumours you bring saint come to fruition mate.

If it carries on like this for much longer, we might well find ourselves in a Newcastle situation whereby we get rid of the manager, only to find no credible alternative will touch it with a bargepole.

by **redtrader74** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:46 am

s@int wrote:Not to worry Mick, I come bearing rumours. DIC are back in with a bid to take over from the two losers.
Whether it will be in time to save our season or not is another matter.Link to takeover

Maybe if they take over, Rafa will be given a war chest, a statement of support and the best present of all Parry gets to take the bullet instead. I can dream can't I ?

I hope that is one rumour that is true. I have zero faith in these two monkeys and it all seems to point to them having bitten off more than they can chew.

Although if they haven't the money why the hell did Moores sell to them?

by **redtrader74** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:11 am

bigmick wrote:
s@int wrote:Not to worry Mick, I come bearing rumours. DIC are back in with a bid to take over from the two losers.

Well whoever is the manager, you can't seriously run a football club like we are at the moment and expect to be successsful. It really has been a joke since these two took over, and I hope that the rumours you bring saint come to fruition mate.

If it carries on like this for much longer, we might well find ourselves in a Newcastle situation whereby we get rid of the manager, only to find no credible alternative will touch it with a bargepole.

The major problem i see with the takeover is that the parameters in Rafas job description and job security have changed. Under Moores i could not see Rafas sacking a possibility unless we finished 6th or something. He was starting to impose himself on all aspects of the Club and right or wrong was beginning to get his way. IMHO he was building for years to come and probably thought, like a lot of us, that this season would be his first where we would at the very least put up a challenge for the title. A manager will have very few opportunities to build, and be given the time to build, at a top Club, and he is desperate to succeed, because this may be his only chance.

The thing is the rug has well and truly been pulled out from beneath him with the takeover and with all the speculation this season, (it has to have affected our players and Rafas ability to manage). Some power has been removed from Rafa and the time scale to deliver the title has probably been reduced, because the credit built up with Moores has stayed with him, G&H for all their rhetoric don't really know Rarfor and have clearly, (at best) an ambivalent relationship. Where is the backing? the support? How good would anybody be at their job if there was constant speculation that you would be dismissed, and your boss didn't really back you?

Its not good, and cannot be a good place to be right now, and WE expect performances at 100% from the manager and players?

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:14 am

bigmick wrote:I would say if I was guessing, that on this forum anyway (and I'm sure it wouldn't be representative of the match going crowd as the vast majority on here don't go) that there is around a 50/50 split of those who think Rafa is doing good stuff for the long-term and should stay, and those who think it's time for a change at the end of the season. Just to cloud the waters even further, some of us think he is doing good stuff for the long term but still think it might be right at the end of the season to consider a change.

That said, I reckon if you asked just about any sensible observer to look at our current situation, our manager is being put in a position on a week to week basis which is absolutely impossible to work in.

Lets look at it. We were expected to go a lot closer in the league than we have, and we are out of the title race. For whatever reason, the players and the team have performed below expectations. What would the manager normally do?

1. He'd go out and buy some players in January. It's pretty much as obvious as the nose on your face that we need a striker. Annelka has gone to Chelsea, Berbatov is likely going to go to man Utd, and we aren't in for anybody. This nonsesne about Rafa saying we are happy with the players we've got, or "we've got enough players" is sheer diplomacy on his part IMHO. I don't believe the owners are backing him in the transfer market. It might be because they don't rate him, or it might be because they're skint, but whatever, they aren't backing him as of right now. I know we've bought a centre-half but that will probably be as a result of a long term committment IMHO.

2. He'd turn around and say, "these players are playing for a place in the squad next season. If things don't improve, heads will roll". Why doesn't he do that? well obviously because the players will no doubt think if anyone's head is going to roll, it won't be theirs it'll be the managers. How can he possibly be expected to motivate players if they're of the opinion that they are just marking time until the new bloke comes in?

3. He'd drop half the first team and bring some of the reserve players in. Once again not really an option as he would be accused (by me no doubt) of over-rotation, and I am convinced it is this issue which has galvanised the owners disrespect for him.

So the manager is in a corner, backed in with nowhere to go it seems to me. He has seemingly no kitty to bolster the squad. He is undermined at every turn in the press with story after story about Capello, Klinnsman etc going undenied by anyone at the club. The players, now that any hopes of the title have gone appear to have given up the ghost and lost belief, while his motivational powers are significantly diminished by the uncertainty surrounding his position. He essentially has to get players who were all fired up for a title challenge, to get all fired up for a fourth place challenge which isn't easy.

I have criticised him many times, but think the club ought really to clear up some issues outstanding. At the very least he deserves backing for the remainder of the season, but he certainly doesn't deserve the way it's been handled at the moment.

Top post mick , totally agree. Lets hope the DIC rumour becomes a reality and we get back on track. (Not the new manager bit though).

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:28 am

s@int wrote:Not to worry Mick, I come bearing rumours. DIC are back in with a bid to take over from the two losers.
Whether it will be in time to save our season or not is another matter.Link to takeover

Maybe if they take over, Rafa will be given a war chest, a statement of support and the best present of all Parry gets to take the bullet instead. I can dream can't I ?

Hope to god your right Saint because this is becoming a joke the suppopt was still there for Rafa today at the game but somehow its not being showed on the pitch. Micks right in his comments about this club being run the way it is at the moment its an absolute joke, and i blame the so called yankie billioneres .
They have to come out publicly and give Rafa there backing or they have to sack him . He is being put in a no win situation at the mo.

I think now that all this uncertaincy is getting to the players cause you can actually see it on the pitch in there body language.

These :censored:

have tarnished our great name and made us a laughing stock it surly cant go on much longer.

One thing i am supprised with though is they made Moores a life presedent of the club and hes still on the board. Considering his supposed to be great love for our club why hasnt even he opened his mouth on whats going on

by **Kharhaz** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:31 am

These have tarnished our great name and made us a laughing stock it surly cant go on much longer.

How? What have they done that is so bad, and bearing in mind, no media quotations allowed ! If its with regards to what is happening on the pitch, then they cannot be faulted for that.

by **Sabre** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:41 am

Interesting post.

However, I don't think Rafa is too affected by the atmosphere of the surroundings. The climate is getting Spanish, hotter, but still far from the Spanish standards.

Meaning, I don't think tomorrow when he walks to the supermarket or whatever he'll be approached by a 70 year old man and be told "Haven't you got shame to be here instead of thinking how to sort out the problems?". He doesn't have neither a bunch of fans in Melwood calling names to the players, or being told they don't deserve the weekly wages.

Benitez has said that he knows what's to be in a top club, a club in which second, is not good enough -- let alone fifth.

I won't find excuses on this, Rafa has worked under worst circunstances, and he will work again in these circunstances when he goes back to Spain. Would you imagine H&G calling fom Texas or wherever and telling Rafa, "tomorrow you'll line up Torres!". These kind of comments are the bread and butter of the spanish football. Even at this un-Liverpool atmosphere, Rafa is still in a heaven compared to Spain.

No, I don't think our bad results are down to this atmosphere, plus, the support Rafa has enjoyed at Anfield and away games has been superb, and that counts a hell lot more than all the press for Rafa.

However, the thought of Bigmick is very interesting applied to this forum.

When you go regularly to a stadium, you tend to be in a supporting mood. It's not like a theater, in which you sit and expect to be offered a show and clap if it's been good, boo if it's bad. You support. And long time supporters, have this thing very nailed in their hearts.

The antirafas have ro realise that the posters that seem to defend too much the manager (Leon etc) are perfectly capable of seeing the bad side of the story. But they always will preffer to see the bright side, because that's what they're used to do. That kind of attitudes are forged under the rain and cold in the stadiums, and are difficult to remove, even when you go to a forum.

Those supporters at the same time, must realise that this is an internet forum. That the fans that are "slating" Rafa simply want the good of the team, and they don't like the show they're watching. So there's no point in calling them "unloyal", they're simply living the experience from another perspective, and the real place to show support is the stadium.

I say this, because it's reallly pointless to discuss harshly between us, we're simply living our passion for Liverpool in a different way. And we must not forget this is only a internet forum

Rotation won't change because we discuss too much and a side of the discussion seems to be winning. Rafa won't stop playing Kuyt just because he's unpopular here. So don't get too frustrated about that.

Some calmness is needed.

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:42 am

Kharhaz wrote:
These have tarnished our great name and made us a laughing stock it surly cant go on much longer.

How? What have they done that is so bad, and bearing in mind, no media quotations allowed ! If its with regards to what is happening on the pitch, then they cannot be faulted for that.

Kharhaz mate im shaking my head in disbelief at that comment

Money weres the money

New stadium built as soon as to rival the best there is !

No dept ! im cracking up here

Until these to came along you only ever read about us for footballing reasons now its a different story every day dont you think the uncertaincy is affecting whats happenin on the pitch cause i do

And you say theve done nothing wrong

So everything is Rafas fault

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:42 am

£75 million each for doing not much of anything seems a little excessive to me. We should have made a newkit bid.

Bigmick could have been the figurehead
peewee and lfc 2007 the legal brains
Emerald could have drawn a great pic of a new stadium that we would never build.
Badbob and Metalhead the foreign investors
Leon and Lando the muscle
Wooly could have got us a loan
And the rest of us could have all thrown in a tenner each for expenses.

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:46 am

s@int wrote:£75 million each for doing not much of anything seems a little excessive to me. We should have made a newkit bid.

Bigmick could have been the figurehead
peewee and lfc 2007 the legal brains
Emerald could have drawn a great pic of a new stadium that we would never build.
Badbob and Metalhead the foreign investors
Leon and Lando the muscle
Wooly could have got us a loan
And the rest of us could have all thrown in a tenner each for expenses.

Let me be the physio

by **Sabre** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:48 am

s@int wrote:£75 million each for doing not much of anything seems a little excessive to me. We should have made a newkit bid.

Bigmick could have been the figurehead
peewee and lfc 2007 the legal brains
Emerald could have drawn a great pic of a new stadium that we would never build.
Badbob and Metalhead the foreign investors
Leon and Lando the muscle
Wooly could have got us a loan
And the rest of us could have all thrown in a tenner each for expenses.

For the Spaniards always the waiter job, eh? :no

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 2:50 am

Kharhaz wrote:
These have tarnished our great name and made us a laughing stock it surly cant go on much longer.

How? What have they done that is so bad, and bearing in mind, no media quotations allowed ! If its with regards to what is happening on the pitch, then they cannot be faulted for that.

What have they done thats so good, bearing in mind that they have yet to put a penny into the club, the stadium has been delayed for at least another year and our manager has been knocked from piller to post in the press for 6 months without any support from our two clowns?

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