Liverpool FC Forum

by **JohnBull** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:21 pm

The CL and the Prem are chalk and cheese. There are some games where no motivation is required and we've shown that on occasions. But think back to the early CL games when we lost in the worst possible fashion because "we were not up for it".
We should ALWAYS "be up for it" no matter who the opposition are. The Manc game was so predictable after 10 minutes it was embarrassing. The players appeared to be going through the motions, waiting for the usual result, it was a foregone conclusion that one poxy goal from the Mancs would win it.

This should never happen.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:27 pm

JohnBull wrote:The CL and the Prem are chalk and cheese. There are some games where no motivation is required and we've shown that on occasions. But think back to the early CL games when we lost in the worst possible fashion because "we were not up for it".
We should ALWAYS "be up for it" no matter who the opposition are. The Manc game was so predictable after 10 minutes it was embarrassing. The players appeared to be going through the motions, waiting for the usual result, it was a foregone conclusion that one poxy goal from the Mancs would win it.

This should never happen.

Chalk and cheese? Maybe if you're comparing playing Derby vs. playing Barca but surely our lads are going to be well "up for it" against the Mancs at Anfield? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:34 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:i think bob it is simply just the way the team play in CL it works cos its is knock out comp but in league not .

Knock out as we know you can sit back more and let things happen naturaly but in league you have to be able to force some thing to happy in game.

But there have been plenty of instances in the Champions League where we haven't had the luxury of sitting back and letting things just unfold. The Marseille game is obviously the most recent example where we needed to win and did so--convincingly. But, we needed to peg Chelsea back in last year's semis and, of course, Barca scored first at the Nou Camp and we went at them and got two. Now, if we were as defensive as people claim, would we really have gone for two in Barcelona? Wouldn't it have been prudent to settle for 1-1 or even 1-0 and hope to nick the tie back at Anfield?

Anyway, we were discussing Rafa's skills as motivator. I just don't buy that he's that poor, given what we've accomplished in the CL against some truly fantastic sides. And, I certainly don't buy that he approaches motivation in a fundamentally different way in the league compared to the CL. Honestly, I'm more convinced by those who say Rafa overcooks the tactics in the league than I am by this theory about his difficulties motivating players.

Maybe its more to do with foreign players being motivated more by Europe and cups than the "bread an butter " premiership.

Mancs do have their share of foreign players but on the whole are perhaps the most English of the big four. Fergie has had the money to pay over the odds to buy English rather than bargain hunting in Europe. Have won lots of league titles but only one CL final in god knows how long.

We have an English heart with Gerrard and Carra but maybe too much of a Spanish soul to give the prem the same importance and "will to win at all costs" as the mancs. Yet in Europe we leave the mancs standing. Two finals in three years says its no fluke, but maybe its style not heart and soul after all.

by **Sabre** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:45 pm

You may have a point there, in a recent interview, the one Nanny brought about Dalglish we could hear that Torres' dream is still his old dream of playing in the Champions league. Many of our blips, have started in the aftermath of european competitions, or, the Reading deblacle would ne another example.

Football is an state of mind and motivation is important.

However, I think that with time, they do get some of the Scouse spirit, meaning that if asked again in 2 years, Torres might say he preffers the premiership. Myself, I have experienced this change as a fan. When I met you guys I preffered the CL, 2 years ago aswell, but right now, I want the premiership badly.

by **tubby** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:23 pm

I dont know. Look how many non English players Arsenal have and how they dominated the 90's. Even now they play most teams of the park on their day.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:37 pm

bavlondon wrote:I dont know. Look how many non English players Arsenal have and how they dominated the 90's. Even now they play most teams of the park on their day.

With Arsenal while they are mainly (almost all) foreign, maybe it has something to do with what Sabre says, that once they have been here a while they get more of the English attitude to the league. i.e. a lot of their players have come through the youth system like Fabrigas (16) or maybe its because they have gone for the French/African players.

I think myself its mainly because they play a style of football that doesn't rely on passion, will to win etc but much more on teamwork and skill. Hence when occasionally they meet a team of more physical character they tend to struggle. Motivation maybe less of a consideration, team work and skill being the prerequisite. Hence even with the loss of one of their greatest players they reached a CL FINAL and then with the loss of another in Henry they top the league.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:52 pm

s@int wrote:I think myself its mainly because they play a style of football that doesn't rely on passion, will to win etc but much more on teamwork and skill. Hence when occasionally they meet a team of more physical character they tend to struggle. Motivation maybe less of a consideration, team work and skill being the prerequisite. Hence even with the loss of one of their greatest players they reached a CL FINAL and then with the loss of another in Henry they top the league.

I wouldn't equate physicality with passion. Teams such as Arsenal who are accomplished technically possessing skill, flair, fluent passing and mobility in abundance, are just as passionate about winning as the Manc's - who have a slightly more physical edge to their play. I can't think of a side who've won the league without demonstrating a daring passion to win. I don't know, how would you define passion in football?

A strong desire to overcome every difficulty you may encounter, is how I'd define it.

by **LegBarnes** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:05 am

s@int wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
LegBarnes wrote:i think bob it is simply just the way the team play in CL it works cos its is knock out comp but in league not .

Knock out as we know you can sit back more and let things happen naturaly but in league you have to be able to force some thing to happy in game.

But there have been plenty of instances in the Champions League where we haven't had the luxury of sitting back and letting things just unfold. The Marseille game is obviously the most recent example where we needed to win and did so--convincingly. But, we needed to peg Chelsea back in last year's semis and, of course, Barca scored first at the Nou Camp and we went at them and got two. Now, if we were as defensive as people claim, would we really have gone for two in Barcelona? Wouldn't it have been prudent to settle for 1-1 or even 1-0 and hope to nick the tie back at Anfield?

Anyway, we were discussing Rafa's skills as motivator. I just don't buy that he's that poor, given what we've accomplished in the CL against some truly fantastic sides. And, I certainly don't buy that he approaches motivation in a fundamentally different way in the league compared to the CL. Honestly, I'm more convinced by those who say Rafa overcooks the tactics in the league than I am by this theory about his difficulties motivating players.

Maybe its more to do with foreign players being motivated more by Europe and cups than the "bread an butter " premiership.

Mancs do have their share of foreign players but on the whole are perhaps the most English of the big four. Fergie has had the money to pay over the odds to buy English rather than bargain hunting in Europe. Have won lots of league titles but only one CL final in god knows how long.

We have an English heart with Gerrard and Carra but maybe too much of a Spanish soul to give the prem the same importance and "will to win at all costs" as the mancs. Yet in Europe we leave the mancs standing. Two finals in three years says its no fluke, but maybe its style not heart and soul after all.

mabye but torres is our best performer in league this year close is gerrard now he is spanish but he is playing better in league then CL but i get what you meen i think tho it must depend on the player and what his personal goals are.

by **JohnBull** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:13 am

Torres is proving what a great player he is because he's a point to prove that he can do it here. Don't forget he wasn't universely rated in Spain, there were many doubters.The lads' attitude is a dream come true. e
As far as Wenger is concerned, don't forget that he spends as much time and money checking out a players personality as he does on their ability. He buys potential that he knows will accept the rigours of the Premiership but even he's made his mistakes, just not as many as us.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:30 am

LFC2007 wrote:
s@int wrote:I think myself its mainly because they play a style of football that doesn't rely on passion, will to win etc but much more on teamwork and skill. Hence when occasionally they meet a team of more physical character they tend to struggle. Motivation maybe less of a consideration, team work and skill being the prerequisite. Hence even with the loss of one of their greatest players they reached a CL FINAL and then with the loss of another in Henry they top the league.

I wouldn't equate physicality with passion. Teams such as Arsenal who are accomplished technically possessing skill, flair, fluent passing and mobility in abundance, are just as passionate about winning as the Manc's - who have a slightly more physical edge to their play. I can't think of a side who've won the league without demonstrating a daring passion to win. I don't know, how would you define passion in football?

A strong desire to overcome every difficulty you may encounter, is how I'd define it.

I believe Arsenal have a passion to play great football, whether they have enough passion to win the prem only time will tell. Obviously they have "winners " in their team, but I feel that once the win at all costs games come towards the end of the season, their fabulous football may prove vulnerable to the more physical approach of some desperate teams.

When they had the team of "invincibles" a few years ago my one criticism of their play ,was they wanted to play too much football at times rather than securing the points. This obviously ruined their season as although they were unbeaten and won the league, I bet my criticism hurt

Maybe I just feel that when the chips are down, Arsenal are more likely to accept that its just not their day on a cold day in some godforsaken ground than the mancs are.

Thats not to say that I think you need to be like Terry Butcher smashing the wall with your fist to show your passion and how motivated you are. However I think the mancs and Chelsea for that matter, have a few more players who's heads don't drop and who fight to the bitter end than do Arsenal or ourselves in the league.

Which is perhaps another reason why we seem to prosper in the more refined air of European and cup football. In knockout competitions there is no chance to put it right next week, its all on the day, and maybe that adds the spice to our game to match the mancs who are already as motivated as possible and have no higher level to attain.

Either that or its back to rotation

by **The_Rock** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:58 pm

So anybody else think we might have it tough to get 4th now ?

by **DAV** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:00 pm

well it aint looking as easy as alot of us thought it would be

by **whylongball?** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:02 pm

The_Rock wrote:So anybody else think we might have it tough to get 4th now ?

well to be honest, i was already concerned..its just getting clearer now.
The team cant do basic stuff. the coach cant get basic formation.
Looks like another Houllier soon

by **Dundalk** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:19 pm

It looks as though it might be a bit of a struggle now, Everton are playing well and winning, we need to put a run together and get away from the chasing pack

by **ivor_the_injun** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:37 pm

I still think a couple of months down the line the usual top 4 will have broken away. On current form though, we're going to be at the bottom of it.

Obviously you look at Man U, who are hotly pursuing Berbatov, and Chelsea who have brought in Anelka, and it's plain to see that we're still not competitive enough in the transfer market with those teams above us. I think Rafa was pinning his hopes on a magical second season from Kuyt, but now that the reality's dawning on him that it's not going to happen, we look ridiculously short of ideas around Torres.

Liverpool FC Forum

Anyone else worried - That we might not finish in the top 4?

Who is online