Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:51 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Lets throw the towel in now then hey ?

Why ?

Cus we dont play well in the second half of the season, rotation is no good, Rafa is a clown, Klinsmanns coming in, G&H are skint, Crouch is off, Kuyt is cr.ap, Voronin is awful, KEwell is a joke and all the other things people moan about.

I object to the Kewell is a joke comment. :angry:

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:53 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Lets throw the towel in now then hey ?

Why ?

Cus we dont play well in the second half of the season, rotation is no good, Rafa is a clown, Klinsmanns coming in, G&H are skint, Crouch is off, Kuyt is cr.ap, Voronin is awful, KEwell is a joke and all the other things people moan about.

Let it lie Leon, you carry on like that and you'll end up a bitter and twisted old man.

by **Owzat** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:08 pm

s@int wrote:So only once under Rafa have we gained more points (2) in the second half of the season. Maybe some of this can be blamed on FA CUP and CL distractions but I was still very surprised especially as we went on such a great run (I had thought) when we also won the FA cup.

10 points out of the first 21 for the first three seasons might help explain it, as well as giving up towards the end as we focus on our regular CL final. In fact we've had an end of season cup final every season under Rafa.

Perhaps it would be better to split the season into first 10 games, last 10 games and two lots of 9 in the middle (or one lot of 18)

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:14 pm

Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:So only once under Rafa have we gained more points (2) in the second half of the season. Maybe some of this can be blamed on FA CUP and CL distractions but I was still very surprised especially as we went on such a great run (I had thought) when we also won the FA cup.

10 points out of the first 21 for the first three seasons might help explain it, as well as giving up towards the end as we focus on our regular CL final. In fact we've had an end of season cup final every season under Rafa.

Perhaps it would be better to split the season into first 10 games, last 10 games and two lots of 9 in the middle (or one lot of 18)

Pretty much so have the mancs, but of course they have had some interest in the title as well.

We played 1 cl game more than the mancs in the second half of last season (the final) but they also reached the FA cup final (we went out in the third round) and they also won the league.

by **Owzat** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:22 pm

s@int wrote:
Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:So only once under Rafa have we gained more points (2) in the second half of the season. Maybe some of this can be blamed on FA CUP and CL distractions but I was still very surprised especially as we went on such a great run (I had thought) when we also won the FA cup.

10 points out of the first 21 for the first three seasons might help explain it, as well as giving up towards the end as we focus on our regular CL final. In fact we've had an end of season cup final every season under Rafa.

Perhaps it would be better to split the season into first 10 games, last 10 games and two lots of 9 in the middle (or one lot of 18)

Pretty much so have the mancs, but of course they have had some interest in the title as well.

We played 1 cl game more than the mancs in the second half of last season (the final) but they also reached the FA cup final (we went out in the third round) and they also won the league.

We must have played more CL games overall, we had to play six qualifiers one season and they only got to the semis once since feck nose when.

I should point out that the comment about 10 points from 21 was helping explain why people think we finish stronger ie the bad starts, good finishes. Probably doesn't read that way.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:32 pm

Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:
Owzat wrote:
s@int wrote:So only once under Rafa have we gained more points (2) in the second half of the season. Maybe some of this can be blamed on FA CUP and CL distractions but I was still very surprised especially as we went on such a great run (I had thought) when we also won the FA cup.

10 points out of the first 21 for the first three seasons might help explain it, as well as giving up towards the end as we focus on our regular CL final. In fact we've had an end of season cup final every season under Rafa.

Perhaps it would be better to split the season into first 10 games, last 10 games and two lots of 9 in the middle (or one lot of 18)

Pretty much so have the mancs, but of course they have had some interest in the title as well.

We played 1 cl game more than the mancs in the second half of last season (the final) but they also reached the FA cup final (we went out in the third round) and they also won the league.

We must have played more CL games overall, we had to play six qualifiers one season and they only got to the semis once since feck nose when.

I should point out that the comment about 10 points from 21 was helping explain why people think we finish stronger ie the bad starts, good finishes. Probably doesn't read that way.

The mancs reached the FA CUP final in both the seasons we reached CL FINAL, with the LC final in between . ie final every year same as us.

They have obviously not been as successful in europe, one semi in the same period. Maybe European travel has played its part in tiring our players,

Surprisingly all the "big four" have reached a final every year over Rafa's reign except for Chelsea who missed out on a final in 05/06 (thanks to us

)

As for number of cup games :-

last season :-

We played 9 cup games, winning 4 and losing 5

Chelsea played 14 cup games, winning 10, drawing 3 and losing 1

Mancs played 13 cup games, winning 9, drawing 2 and losing 2.

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:43 pm

A good guy I have worked for over a number of years taught me everything I know about man management, motivation, statistics and all those management things that I use today in work. I owe him a lot.

Two key things that he taught me about statisctics where:

1) Any fool hardy manager can read and quote stats, the manager's manager will disect and analyse them.

2) To look at the number is to scratch the surface, to find the hidden beauty of statistics you must find their origin.

If we just look at those figures for the league games, and dont accept or take into account the games in the Cup competitions then thats about as useful as a chocolate teapot.

We need to understand that the league was not the only competition we where in at that time, which is somewhat ironic given the fact that everyone on here is crying out for us to maintain our form through ALL competitions.

Lets look at the figures in more detail:

Season 2004-2005

Played 19, Points 28
Played 38, Points 58

First Half: 28 pts
Second Half: 30 pts

KEy things to consider here are:

1) Cup Games - 1st Half - the half way point is the West Brom game, on Boxing Day 2004. Before this game we played 9 Cup games, winning 5, drawing 2 and losing 2. If we used a points system that would equal 17 more points.

2) Cup Games - 2nd Half - after the half way point we played a further 11 games in the cup, losing 2 (Burnley and Chelsea CC final) winning 6 and drawing 3 (Juventus away, Chelsea away and AC in the final of the Champions LEague) if we used a points system that would equal 21 more points.

3) Strategic player resting due to European cup progress - because of the gap from the top of the league and the impending cup games, players where rested from "dead rubber games" like Palace (3 days before Chesea away) and Man City (in between both Juventus games). I am not saying this wont happen now, but it DID happen then and needs to be brough into the picture.

Had the Cup games been league ones, the figure would have been more like a six point gap from the first half of the season to the second.

------------------------------------------------------------

Season 2005-2006

Played 19, Points 41
Played 38, Points 82

First Half: 41 pts
Second Half: 41 pts

Key things to consider here are:

1) Cup Games - 1st Half - the half way point is the Bolton home game, on the 2nd January 2006. Before this game we played 7 Cup games, winning 3, drawing 3 and losing 1. If we used a points system that would equal 12 more points.

2) Cup Games - 2nd Half - after the half way point we played a further 8 games in the cup, losing 2 (Benfica home and away) winning 5 and drawing 1 (West Ham in the Final) if we used a points system that would equal 16 more points.

3) Actual form - we won 12 and drew one of our last 14 games, including nine out of our last nine games in 2005-2006. This could be crucial in the run in.

4) Final Total - we finished the season on a pretty respectable 82 points, our best since Rupert Murdoch invented football in 1992 and good enough to win said league 3 times (1998, 1999 and 2001) finish second in 2003 (1point behind winners), 2002 (4pts) and 2000 (9pts).

Had the Cup games been league ones, the figure would have been more of a four point gap from the first half of the season to the second.

------------------------------------------------------------

Season 2005-2006

Played 19, Points 34
Played 38, Points 68

First Half: 34 pts
Second Half: 34 pts

Key things to consider here are:

1) Cup Games - 1st Half - the half way point is the Watford game, on the 23rd December 2006. Before this game we played 8 cup games, winning 6, drawing 1 and losing 1. If we used a points system that would equal 19 more points.

2) Cup Games - 2nd Half - after the half way point we played a further 9 games in the cup, losing 5 (Arsenal both cups, Barca, Chalse and AC in the Europen Cup) winning 4 if we used a points system that would equal 12 more points.

3) Strategic player resting due to European cup progress - because of the gap from the top of the league and the impending cup games, players where rested from "dead rubber games" like Portsmouth and Fulham (in aroung the two legged Chelse Semi final games).

------------------------------------------------------------

These things must be considered.

Whilst I am not arguing this proves we will win the league, it does prove that as football team we play better in the second half of the season.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:54 pm

But you are missing the point again Leon, the creedo always brandished by the pro -rotationers (I include my self) was about us being stronger IN THE LEAGUE in the second half of the season.

I believed it and quoted it with confidence as a measure of how rotation would help come the second half of the season. Anti- rotationers had their " ah but you are beating broken horses" theory. Again boll0cks as it doesn't appear to matter that half the sides have given up either.

As I said in the edit to my previous post we played less cup games than the mancs last season

To take your points system and expand it :-
We played 9 cup games, winning 4 and losing 5 = 12points

Chelsea played 14 cup games, winning 10, drawing 3 and losing 1 = 33 points

Mancs played 13 cup games, winning 9, drawing 2 and losing 2. = 29 points

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:00 pm

You can analyse it as much as you want but if you create loads of chances and miss them all, you won't win games, regardless of how well you are playing in general terms.

I think the 'myth' as has been previously mentioned, comes from the fact that in the last three seasons we've gone to the final of a cup competition aswell as having to play league matches. You won't be able to prove if we are really stronger in the second half of the season until we are out of the FA Cup and the Champions League with only the Premiership to play for.

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:09 pm

s@int wrote:But you are missing the point again Leon, the creedo always brandished by the pro -rotationers (I include my self) was about us being stronger IN THE LEAGUE in the second half of the season.

For the record I class myself as neather pro rotational or not. I am pro Liverpool, pro Rafa and pro LFC.

The point people make is we play better after Christams, we do - end of.

ONLY when we play a different team entirely from the League to the Cup will I entertain the idea of looking at the two as seperate entities.

s@int wrote:I believed it and quoted it with confidence as a measure of how rotation would help come the second half of the season. Anti- rotationers had their " ah but you are beating broken horses" theory. Again boll0cks as it doesn't appear to matter that half the sides have given up either.

Why on earth is everyone on here obsessed with catagorising all members as pro or anti rotational ?

s@int wrote:As I said in the edit to my previous post we played less cup games than the mancs last season

To take your points system and expand it :-
We played 9 cup games, winning 4 and losing 5 = 12points

Chelsea played 14 cup games, winning 10, drawing 3 and losing 1 = 33 points

Mancs played 13 cup games, winning 9, drawing 2 and losing 2. = 29 points

Try and keep the discussion to the topic - this is about us playing better in the second half of the season, not the MAncs.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:13 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:But you are missing the point again Leon, the creedo always brandished by the pro -rotationers (I include my self) was about us being stronger IN THE LEAGUE in the second half of the season.

I believed it and quoted it with confidence as a measure of how rotation would help come the second half of the season. Anti- rotationers had their " ah but you are beating broken horses" theory. Again boll0cks as it doesn't appear to matter that half the sides have given up either.

As I said in the edit to my previous post we played less cup games than the mancs last season

To take your points system and expand it :-
We played 9 cup games, winning 4 and losing 5 = 12points

Chelsea played 14 cup games, winning 10, drawing 3 and losing 1 = 33 points

Mancs played 13 cup games, winning 9, drawing 2 and losing 2. = 29 points

Comment

What the feck does "comment" mean ?

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:15 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:But you are missing the point again Leon, the creedo always brandished by the pro -rotationers (I include my self) was about us being stronger IN THE LEAGUE in the second half of the season.

I believed it and quoted it with confidence as a measure of how rotation would help come the second half of the season. Anti- rotationers had their " ah but you are beating broken horses" theory. Again boll0cks as it doesn't appear to matter that half the sides have given up either.

As I said in the edit to my previous post we played less cup games than the mancs last season

To take your points system and expand it :-
We played 9 cup games, winning 4 and losing 5 = 12points

Chelsea played 14 cup games, winning 10, drawing 3 and losing 1 = 33 points

Mancs played 13 cup games, winning 9, drawing 2 and losing 2. = 29 points

Comment

What the feck does "comment" mean ?

I do it so that I can then use the edit function on a quote to discuss different part of it (this is especially useful if its one of Big Micks essays).

I take it you have no comment on my jelly bean like disproval of the threories raised in this topic then ?

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:32 pm

leon said

Try and keep the discussion to the topic - this is about us playing better in the second half of the season, not the MAncs.

Surely its all about comparisons though mate? ie if you don't make comparisons you might think it was acceptable to have 38 points after twenty games, its only when you compare that to the Arsenals 50 points after 21 games that you appreciate that our league challenge is as good as gone.

Why on earth is everyone on here obsessed with catagorising all members as pro or anti rotational ?

Just more convenient than saying Bigmick said this, Badbob said that, Bamaga said the other. Not meant to upset or annoy anyone mate.

The point people make is we play better after Christams, we do - end of.

In the cups maybe, its a bit difficult to prove as we don't play many cup games in the first half of the season. In the league the FACTS would say that we don't.

In the 2005/6 season (a season in which we played a lot of cup games in the first half of the season) played 15 won 10 lost 3 drew 2 (not sure as my eyes went wonky)

by **Leonmc0708** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:39 pm

s@int wrote:leon said
Try and keep the discussion to the topic - this is about us playing better in the second half of the season, not the MAncs.

Surely its all about comparisons though mate? ie if you don't make comparisons you might think it was acceptable to have 38 points after twenty games, its only when you compare that to the Arsenals 50 points after 21 games that you appreciate that our league challenge is as good as gone.

No, this thread is about our performances in the second half of the season. If we always bring United up as the measure, then we are never going to be able to measure up as they have a BIG BIG headstart on us on a number of issues, ground, revenue, league form last decade etc.

s@int wrote:
Why on earth is everyone on here obsessed with catagorising all members as pro or anti rotational ?

Just more convenient than saying Bigmick said this, Badbob said that, Bamaga said the other. Not meant to upset or annoy anyone mate.

It doesnt upset me mate, however it does annoy me.

s@int wrote:
The point people make is we play better after Christams, we do - end of.

In the cups maybe, its a bit difficult to prove as we don't play many cup games in the first half of the season. In the league the FACTS would say that we don't.

Look at the 2005-2006 season though mate, if we get that EXACT same result in terms of poitns and win our game in hand that will put us on 38+3+41= 82 points. That will do nicely.

It seems to suggest that progress in the Champions League comes at the detrement of League progress. On that basis I would be VERY happy with a repeat of our 2005-2006 second half of the season, an FA Cup win and 82 points at the end of the season.

by **burjennio** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:45 pm

and we usually put out 2nd string sides for the last 3-4 games because cl qualification is tied up and we've a bid final to look forward to :;):

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