Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:08 am

I decided to look at rotation and who is actually playing consistently. Obviously there have been injuries that mean Pennant, Alonso, Agger, Finnan and latterly Hyypia have been unavailable for some, most or all of those games. But out of the 22 players who you might consider regular options for a 1st XI place has there been a random selection or simply the same backbone and a few changes each game? It is my view that it is the few changes that cause part of the problem, it's standardly Reina, Arbeloa, Carragher, Hyypia, Benayoun, Gerrard, Mascherano, Kewell, Kuyt and Torres for most games with Babel one of three subs 2/3 of the time and Aurelio a sub half of his six appearances

If it were rotation then Sissoko, Lucas, Voronin, Crouch (ban excepted) and Itandje would surely feature more often than they have been. You certainly wouldn't have expected some of those players to be playing every game, especially as we've had strugglers Wigan, Derby and Bolton in those 10 games. It's noticeable the only game Rafa used only one sub in was the draw at Man City, only in two other games has he not used all his subs.

Last 10 games

10 Carragher (1)
9 Reina, Arbeloa, Benayoun, Babel, Gerrard and Torres (6)

8 Kuyt, Kewell (2)
7 Hyypia, Aurelio, Mascherano (3)

6 Crouch, Riise (2)

4 Finnan, Lucas, Voronin (3)
3 Hobbs, Alonso (2)

2 Sissoko (1)
1 Itandje, Pennant, El Zhar (3)

So despite this notorious "rotation policy" of Rafas, SEVEN players have featured in 90% or more of the last ten games - and it should be noted the only game Gerrard, Torres and Reina missed was the Carling Cup tie which Rafa puts out a weakened side in.

OK Babel has played nine games and has started only three times. He has subbed Kewell in three of his six sub appearances

In those 10 games Liverpool have picked up 11 points out of 21 possible in the league and won two of three cup games - beat Porto and Marseille, lost to Chelsea. Those 10 out of 21 points in the league happen to be the points picked up in the three starts Liverpool made in previous seasons under Rafa and were deemed bad starts. Even when off to a good start Liverpool have managed to claw it back to being a bad position. This season it was 15 points out of 21 possible at the start with no defeats

Liverpool league 'progress'

2007/8

Games 1-5 : W3 D2 L0 PTS 11
Games 6-10 : W2 D3 L0 PTS 9
Games 11-15 : W3 D1 L1 PTS 10
Games 16-20 : W2 D2 L1 PTS 8

2007/8 P20 W10 D8 L2 PTS 38

2006/7

Games 1-5 : W2 D1 L2 PTS 7
Games 6-10 : W2 D1 L2 PTS 7
Games 11-15 : W2 D2 L1 PTS 8
Games 16-20 : W4 D0 L1 PTS 12

2006/7 P20 W10 D4 L6 PTS 34

So we are four points better off as at the same stage last season, but then we have to play Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea away which account for three of the losses in the bad start to 2006/7. I think it's pretty appalling that in those eight five game spells we've only managed four wins once and three or more wins only three times. That is what makes teams like Man Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea champions, the ability to put a run of results together and not follow it up or precede it with a pitiful run.

If Arsenal do win the Premiership this season then it will mean each of Liverpool's three rivals in the 'big four' will have won the Premiership during Rafa's reign.......................

by **LittleHobo** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:03 pm

in the last ten games he hasnt rotated so bad, has kept a spine to the team and only really tinkered with the squad type players much like wenger does or whiskey nose does

by **JohnBull** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:23 pm

Don't just look at the players rotations, look at the system rotations as well. We seem terrified of every team we play because WE change OUR style to suite them. We should not be doing this. It should be up to the opposition to worry.
We've got the players to a large extent, just keep using them in a formation that works and let the others worry.

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:27 pm

No its not a myth, Liverpool play under Rafa remember ?

by **Sabre** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:50 pm

Rotation is not a myth, rotation is a policy. But rotation has been massively overrated and became a myth. I can see this when I compare Spanish and English approach of journalists.

In a Spanish interview to Rafa of 3 pages the journo doesn't mention rotation. In a Spanish commented game, the tactics are commented, the missing players are commented, the mistakes over the pitch are commented, but rotation is not mentioned.

When I download a game of SKY or SETANTA though, one of the first things mentioned by the commentator is that Rafa has rotated the team with X changes. You can see that in an article brought by S@int in the Luton thread aswell: First thing mentioned is the rotation against Luton.

In a way, it's funny. I think it's the way the journos have to fill the pages. Rafa won't change because of this, but I wonder if the pressure applied by the press -- mostly ignorant about football -- will make the Americans yield and sack Rafa. If that's the case and we have a couple of chairmen with weak knees, then Liverpool are doomed for another 17 years.

Note that, I'm not implying that the overrated rotation is affecting all the members of this forum. Bigmick for instance, has all my respect because he has moaned about rotation since day one I can remember. Yes, he's been insisting more on the issue as of late, but that's related to us not being first or second in the league, and it's natural being more impatient.

So I want to make clear that some antirotation thoughts here are well thought, old in time, and genuine. But I do think the overrating, over-mentioning of the rotation is hilarious and ridiculous in the press.

P.S. On a side note, the stats of Owzat are always interesting, but this discussion could go in the nice rotation thread.

by **The_Rock** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:48 pm

Sabre wrote:will make the Americans yield and sack Rafa. If that's the case and we have a couple of chairmen with weak knees, then Liverpool are doomed for another 17 years.

Rafa leaves.....and LFC are doomed for 17 years

......

eh......... :glare:

by **Sabre** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:29 pm

The_Rock wrote:
Sabre wrote:will make the Americans yield and sack Rafa. If that's the case and we have a couple of chairmen with weak knees, then Liverpool are doomed for another 17 years.

Rafa leaves.....and LFC are doomed for 17 years ......

eh.........

You got me wrong -- not a surprise. The doom would be not because of Rafa leaving, but because we'd have a staff prone to sudden changes, unlike the tradition of England, and like it's a normal rule in Spain.

If another manager comes, will the americans put the money on the table that they haven't put with Rafa?

If another manager comes and doesn't win anything in one year will they sack him again?

Sacking quickly projects due to the pressure of press and some fans would be the doom, not Rafa leaving. The americans have to hear not me, not you, not this forum, but what Anfield says. So far Anfield has supported Rafa, the day Anfield doesn't support Rafa, that's the day Rafa must leave.

Anyway what I said is nothing compared to the posters out there that claim no team will win the title under Rafa's tactic. Never is stronger doom than 17 years.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:40 pm

JohnBull wrote:Don't just look at the players rotations, look at the system rotations as well. We seem terrified of every team we play because WE change OUR style to suite them. We should not be doing this. It should be up to the opposition to worry.
We've got the players to a large extent, just keep using them in a formation that works and let the others worry.

Spot on post. Obviously we have to take account of other teams strengths and weaknesses, teams that have fast forwards for example, by maybe playing our back line a little deeper etc etc, but the basic formation of our team should rarely be changed. (I was going to put never, but there are alway exceptions)

Anyway what I said is nothing compared to the posters out there that claim no team will win the title under Rafa's tactic. Never is stronger doom than 17 years.

Never could easily be 6 months or less away where Rafa and his tactics are concerned now Sabre.

by **redtrader74** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:47 pm

Sabre wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
Sabre wrote:will make the Americans yield and sack Rafa. If that's the case and we have a couple of chairmen with weak knees, then Liverpool are doomed for another 17 years.

Rafa leaves.....and LFC are doomed for 17 years ......

eh.........

You got me wrong -- not a surprise. The doom would be not because of Rafa leaving, but because we'd have a staff prone to sudden changes, unlike the tradition of England, and like it's a normal rule in Spain.

If another manager comes, will the americans put the money on the table that they haven't put with Rafa?

If another manager comes and doesn't win anything in one year will they sack him again?

Sacking quickly projects due to the pressure of pressure of press and some fans would be the doom, not Rafa leaving. The americans have to hear not me, not you, not this forum, but what Anfield says. So far Anfield has supported Rafa, the day Anfield doesn't support Rafa, that's the day Rafa must leave.

Anyway what I said is nothing compared to the posters out there that no team will win the title under Rafa's tactic. Never is stronger doom than 17 years.

The only reason to sack Rafa should be footballing. The money issue this year has clouded the debate, we 'only' really spent £20-25M, THIS AMOUNT WAS GENERATED FROM REACHING THE CL FINAL, the Americans have not put anything into the Club as yet, unless ofcourse hot air has a value. So far it looks as though they are baulking at the cost of the new stadium, therefore it looks as though a large transfer kitty is not really on the table in the near future, and what top manager would that attract??

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:58 pm

Sabre wrote:Anyway what I said is nothing compared to the posters out there that claim no team will win the title under Rafa's tactic. Never is stronger doom than 17 years.

And no team will of course ever win the English Premier League whist rotating the players, the tactics, the formation and the positions those players play in with the same frequency and to the same extent which Rafa has so far at Liverpool. What I commonly refer to as "Rafa style" will never ever be successful over here, regardless of whether we buy Samuel Eto, Thierry Henri, Simao Sambrosa or whatever the feck his name is and Cannevaro.

Only eleven can be on the pitch at any one time, and unless you allow the nucleus of that eleven blokes to gel and to form a team, you will not win often enough to win the League over here. In England, to be successful a draw is a poor result in many games. Unbeaten is nice but a high win percentage is nicer. If you're not prepared to fight for the right to play, you will occasionally get muscled out of it by "smaller" teams, you need a winning, team mentality with players who are prepared to battle and scrap and do whatever it takes to get the ball into the oppositions goal more often than they got it into yours. A lot of games aren't pretty, it's not the beautiful game but it's the best league in the World for excitement.

The team that wins it ALWAYS has a good defence, ALWAYS has goals from around the team, ALWAYS has nastiness if required and ALWAYS goes into games against any team other than their very closest rivals going all out for the win. They ALWAYS have a knack of grinding out results, and they ALWAYS go on winning streaks into double figures.

All of those teams that win it miss chances, they all concede dodgy penalties and suffer injustice at the hands of referees, they are all "unlucky" on occasions. Very occasionally they are beaten comfortably, but more often than not if they do lose a game the opposition is under seige for the last half hour. The opposition keeper will have to have the game of his life to keep them out as bodies are flung on the line with abandon in search of an equaliser. Equally, if 1-1 away from home in a must win, then team that wins the League ALWAYS goes for the win 100%, even risking defeat to do so. They throw the kitchen sink at it and try and kick the door in. If the smaller team "survives" and holds on, their fans talk about it for seasons to come such was the pressure they got put under.

The team that wins it ALWAYS has to cope with situations where all their rivals have won the day before and they MUST win their corresponding fixture, under the lights, Away, while it's p!ssing down, and freezing, and it's off the back of a Champions League game/International break, and the team your playing against is in relegation bother and fighting for their lives.

It's hard to win the League over here. The best team ALWAYS wins it. Not necessarily the best "squad", or the one with the most "options" or "possibilities", but the best team. By and large where you finish, give or take a point or two, is a fair measure of how good you are. You don't win the League over here whilst practising "Rafa style". You don't and you never will.

I SHOULD ALSO ADD OF COURSE BEFORE ANYBODY ELSE DOES, THAT THOSE TEAMS THAT WIN IT NEVER, I REPEAT NEVER, PLAY THE SAME TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE GAME.

by **Bammo** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:36 am

As has been pointed out by the stats, Rafa now tends to play the same core of players (when fit) and so the criticism is that he changes tactics too much.

no team will of course ever win the English Premier League whist rotating the players, the tactics, the formation and the positions those players play in with the same frequency and to the same extent which Rafa has so far at Liverpool

Except Fergie at United of course. Don't believe me? Have a look at United's team each week. Shock! Horror! It actually changes depending on the team they're playing. Players get rested, even Rooney and Tevez, but normally Hargreaves, Carrick, Anderson and Fletcher are rotated. Sometimes they play 3 or 4 attacking players. Other games they keep 1 up front.

So what's the difference between them and us? Why does it work for them?

Goalscorers. Pure and simple, our attacking players don't pose enough of a threat. Let's look at our rivals goal threats:

Man Utd: Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Giggs, Saha, Anderson.

Arsenal: Adebayor, Van Persie, Hleb, Rosicky, Fabregas.

Chelsea: Drogba, Shevchenko, Joe Cole, Kalou, Lampard, Essien.

and then there's us with Torres and Gerrard. And that's it (from Rafa's favoured 11). Against the other top teams, defences are stretched between a number of players. Against us they can focus on Torres and Gerrard and that's us stopped.

Either we buy more dangerous players or those we already have improve their attacking prowess.

Babel has great potential and the more he plays, the better he'll get.

Kewell should get goals if he can stay fit.

Pennant? His game has improved tenfold since he arrived but he doesn't even seem to have shots, let alone get goals.

Alonso needs to play further up if he is to get more goals. Playing alongside Masch (who won't get goals) should allow him to do this.

Benayoun? He'll get goals but he won'tbe a first team regular.

Kuyt and Crouch need to get confident soon or they'll be replaced.

Until we get goal scorers throughout the team we'll have no chance of winning the league.

by **Sabre** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:44 am

Winning a league is always difficult in a top league.

It's beyond me why some of you pretend that the english football is THAT different, when you are presented the evidences of the opposite year in year out.

Yes there are slight differences, the game is interrupted less, so the set pieces situations are not that important, the centre backs are great, the goalies are cráp, but that's it, slight differences . When it comes to football, there are not really much differences. If those differences were that massive, you wouldn't have Wenger, Rafa, Juande and a Israeli whose name I can't remember coaching the top teams. If the differences were that massive, you wouldn't have a league invaded by foreign players playing well from day one, and make no mistake, players like Benayoun wouldn't be "physical" not in England, not in Spain, not in China.

England is a country I admire when it comes to football. SPending some hours a day knowing about an english club is the proof of it. I admire the passion, I admire the loyalty of the fans, I admire the manly tackles, I admire the honesty of players. And Liverpool is the team I admire most due to this kind of values. But as much as I see games in the premiership, I see that those are won, lost, and drawn for the same mistakes and things well done. You don't see a Juande Ramos that speaks no english clueless in Tottenham, because basically it's the same game. You don't see Wenger not triumphing in Arsenal despite the press said "Wenger who?" when he came to England. You see guys like Luis Garcia and Benayoun performing in the league, and you play european teams that even if you apply a high rythm to the game they're not lost in the pitch. I repeat, football in england is genuine, but not that different.

So you can repeat a lot that prediction, and cover it with a well put prose, decent literature and conviction of being right. But unless someone comes here with convincing reasons and facts, I'll continue thinking the game is not that different, and thus it will remain unproven that rotation hinders for the title challenge.

In the second and third paragrah Bigmick and overall your post, you tell a lot of truth, I also think all that is necessary (strong defence, attitude, winning more games etc). But none of the factors you mention are hindered by rotation. In fact you have seen this team clicking and having problems always under the rotation. In the case of the defence, obviously playing an unexperienced Arbeloa in the position will be more crucial for the back four than any rotation you do somewhere else. It's frustrating because I agree many of the things you say but the over-importance you give to the rotation effects.

Now of course, this is a top club and in a top club results are needed. Rafa's season is being dissapointing, and the debate must exist of course. I don't fúcking care we have a Spanish manager, he's a Real Madrid man after all and for you would be like having a Ferguson coaching your favourite club.

But when I sit back and remember the days at the uni when I looked for Liverpool in the standing table and I found them in 5th place, when I remember the days Liverpool were not regular semifinalists in the CL if they qualified at all, I think we have made some progress from 1996. I also know of the previous glorious past, and even the years of relegation, but that's a lot of years ago. I see real progress under Rafa, you wouldn't be outplayed by a fúcking Valencia at your very home nowadays.

Players are not leaving, and important players are joining the project (Torres, Mascherano wants to play here and no other team, etc). I think that's because they see a solid project in a great club. Players stick to clubs who will make them win things.

by **redtrader74** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:48 am

I admire the manly tackles

Sabre

Tackle= meat and two veg

by **Sabre** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:56 am

well you know what I meant. I hope

THanks for the note, anyway, it's really handy for me knowing those nuances.

by **redtrader74** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:08 am

Essentially you're right Sabre, there is no difference, the game is the same, the points system the same, and logically a method that has proven successful in one league, (and a comparable one in terms of money and European success) can and should work if implemented correctly.

As i have said before Arsenal have not won a league title since Chelseas financial dominance, only a FA cup since Rafa arrived, AND NOT WON a European trophy at all under Wenger, but i have not heard any gooners or commenatators criticise that they play far too expansive football, that they should copy Chelsea and Liverpool, or that they keep playing the same team, why doesn't he give the players a rest. Wenger sticks to his guns and philosophy and is lauded for it, because the football is easy on the eye, yet with each oppurtunity Rafa is beaten black a blue with the rotation stick.

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