Liverpool FC Forum

[Kuyt]

You can expect 4 of the five on the bench V PSV, back in the team come Sunday!

Ie; Gerrard, Alonso, Crouch, Hyypia, at least.

Chopping and changing...reality not myth.

[aCe']

fck me but.....rafa can be quite the idiot sometimes.....
i know that the players are to blame for some of our displays and all...but.....rafa should get his fair share of criticism...the way he handled the team in those first 4 or 5 games.....NOT GOOD ENOUGH !
If we draw 3 , lose one and win one in 5 games....thas not good enough... and to hear ppl say that wat rafa is doing so far this season is no short of brilliant is absolute nonsense if u ask me ! WTF !
what....we have to lose all 5 games for u to realize that we'r doin something wrong out there.....our players are waay better than the opposition....were in all 5 games.....and we were outplayed in almost all 5 games! stop all the .." OOooo... Rafa is sooo good...he must be losing alll these games just for us to catch up later on in the season wen all the other teams are fckin tired out ! " doesnt work that way...never did..never will !
im not against slight squad rotations but in our case....with the start we'r having...i'd like to see rafa ATLEAST try to find a best 11 and try to play them together as much as possible...
Player like... Reina...Finnan...Hyypia...Carragher....Alonso...Gerrard....Sissoko....Kuyt....should be played in every single game... rotate in the other positions until a player can prove he's good enough to hold that position.............. rafa's bad if you ask me....is a great manager but such a crappy start and some funny as.s selections....spare me th!e ooo.....we were forced to play him and do that.... he picked the teams cuz he thought it would work....thought that the club is good enough that we dnt need to start our best 11 to win games....not true....sorry but.....we not that good...not yet... !

[Bad Bob]

fck me but.....rafa can be quite the idiot sometimes.....
i know that the players are to blame for some of our displays and all...but.....rafa should get his fair share of criticism...the way he handled the team in those first 4 or 5 games.....NOT GOOD ENOUGH !
If we draw 3 , lose one and win one in 5 games....thas not good enough... and to hear ppl say that wat rafa is doing so far this season is no short of brilliant is absolute nonsense if u ask me ! WTF !
what....we have to lose all 5 games for u to realize that we'r doin something wrong out there.....our players are waay better than the opposition....were in all 5 games.....and we were outplayed in almost all 5 games! stop all the .." OOooo... Rafa is sooo good...he must be losing alll these games just for us to catch up later on in the season wen all the other teams are fckin tired out ! " doesnt work that way...never did..never will !
im not against slight squad rotations but in our case....with the start we'r having...i'd like to see rafa ATLEAST try to find a best 11 and try to play them together as much as possible...
Player like... Reina...Finnan...Hyypia...Carragher....Alonso...Gerrard....Sissoko....Kuyt....should be played in every single game... rotate in the other positions until a player can prove he's good enough to hold that position.............. rafa's bad if you ask me....is a great manager but such a crappy start and some funny as.s selections....spare me th!e ooo.....we were forced to play him and do that.... he picked the teams cuz he thought it would work....thought that the club is good enough that we dnt need to start our best 11 to win games....not true....sorry but.....we not that good...not yet... !

Okay, I'm gonna ignore the "Rafa can be quite an idiot" and "Rafa's bad" comments here because they're clearly a wind-up (if they're not a wind-up then you are NOT a Liverpool fan at heart because it is simply impossible to claim that the man who led us to the CL in 2005 with the squad we had is an idiot ).

I'll focus on this statement of yours: "our players are waay better than the opposition....were in all 5 games.....and we were outplayed in almost all 5 games!"

Does this not suggest to you that the players on the pitch should shoulder the lion's share of the blame for our poor performances to date?  You've said yourself that they were "waay" better than the opposition so how can you fault Rafa for selecting them?

Let's be clear, I would have preferred a better start than this to the season as well and I don't think we've played particularly well yet.  However, for me, the blame lies primarily with the performances being put in on the pitch rather than with the names pencilled into--or left off of--the team sheet.  Rafa IS NOT an idiot and most of his selections have made sense.  Scapegoating the gaffer seems to be the national sport at the moment but a little intelligence will reveal that this critique, while useful for selling papers, holds very little water.  As Chuck D would tell you, don't believe the hype!

[66-1112520797]

In this era of football, rotations are part and parcel of life. More than ever in the sport the game has become a squad one rather than just a team one. Last season our starting eleven and a few subs was really all the quality we had. We lacked depth, Rafa since then has bolstered the squad with quality, and when you have fixture lists that say 7 games in 21 days you need that strength in quality.

When wholesale changes are made like this, you cant expect an instant form. I actually started a topic the other week titled ' Dont expect miracles' because of this. I personally dont think our title challenge is going to come this year now because of the amount of players Rafa has brought in, although I will still hope. Once this core of players has bedded in, I think Rafa will have the bulk of the squad he wants, and come next year we may realisticly reap the rewards.

As for his team selections, this is where he's come in for a bit of stick, if we lose and field a line-up similar to that against PSV the knives will be out on Rafa. If we win, its either seen as a gamble paid off or he'll get a bit of credit for using his squad sparengly. TBH that line-up against PSV made my eyes squint, but you have to have faith in both Rafa and the players, and some selections will look like a gamble but thats a gamble Rafa's got to make and one he gets paid for.
Its easy to blame a loss on team selection, but firstly the players should be held responsible more so than the manager as obviously there the ones playing the match.

[bigmick]

There's no question in my mind that the way we have rotated in the first three or four weeks of the season has been a huge mistake. This will apply even if we go and win 3-0 at Chelsea, which of course we all hope we do. Moves such as playing Bellamy uptop against Haifa at Home, or playing Bellamy and Fowler uptop against Sheffield United away and starting with Zenden weren't clever management, they were mistakes in my opinion. I'm sure if Rafa had his time again, even as a "you must use the squad" devotee, he would do it differently.

I said so after the game at Sheffield United where it wasn't difficult to see that we were potentially repeating the mistakes of last season and some people took the opportunity to scoff at the notion "it's only one game, get a grip, the Premiership isn't won in the first week of the season etc etc." I wonder where those same people stand as of today. Should we lose on Sunday and Man U win aswell I think we will be eleven points behind them and eight behind Chelsea. As we would still have a game in hand saying we were out of it might be overstating the point somewhat, but we wouldn't be exactly in it either.

[66-1112520797]

I dont think Rafa would have rotated as much as he has due to injuries, also in hindsight he may of been better starting off with his best eleven from last season and gradually introducing the new players into the fray. But I thought in the Sheffield game we looked quite comfortable until Riise and Caragher got injured. I agree some of his selections are questionable like the Bellamy Fowler pairing that day, I actually thought Zenden had an okay game too.
So his selections, some of them look suspect no question, but that is really a different issue to rotating players. I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out. If he combines, (and remember he's still finding out his best formations pairings and players etc etc) them and rotates them all to good effect then there wont be a problem. But nobody can expect instant co-hesion among new and old faces, its will take time.

[bigmick]

I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out.

To be perfectly fair, I'm not suggesting we should play our best eleven week-in, week-out. What I am saying is that six changes to the starting eleven per game is too many in my opinion. I don't think it's conjusive to a team finding rhythm or cohesion.

It says it all really when you consider that all of the new players with the possible exception of Gonzales have started their Liverpool careers well, and yet as a team we have barely functioned at all. Other teams don't play their best eleven every game, they rotate. They don't though, change five or six players every game and in so doing leave Steven Gerrard on the bench in games which he could be needed for.

For me the away game in the Champions League the other night was a perfect example. Six changes and we draw 0-0, with Alonso and Gerrard on the bench. Had we started with either in the team we would have won in my view. Win your first few games, make qualification a formality and THEN rotate/give your best players a rest. Similarly, when three out of your first four league games are away, with one of them at your local rivals and one of them at the home of last years Champions, have a look at the other game. When it's away at the team which is one of the favourites to finish bottom, make double sure you win that one at least. That way, if you do come unstuck in one or two of the other games at least you've got three points in the bag/your first away win of the season etc etc.

I can understand peoples loyalty and reluctance to criticise, and nobody has more regard for Rafa than me. If he is correct however in the way he is doing the job, then all the other managers in the Premiership are wrong.

Rotate the team? yes. Start each game though in isolation of the last/next and pick a completely new bunch of players? No. Not for me anyhow.

[ConnO'var]

I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out.

To be perfectly fair, I'm not suggesting we should play our best eleven week-in, week-out. What I am saying is that six changes to the starting eleven per game is too many in my opinion. I don't think it's conjusive to a team finding rhythm or cohesion.

It says it all really when you consider that all of the new players with the possible exception of Gonzales have started their Liverpool careers well, and yet as a team we have barely functioned at all. Other teams don't play their best eleven every game, they rotate. They don't though, change five or six players every game and in so doing leave Steven Gerrard on the bench in games which he could be needed for.

For me the away game in the Champions League the other night was a perfect example. Six changes and we draw 0-0, with Alonso and Gerrard on the bench. Had we started with either in the team we would have won in my view. Win your first few games, make qualification a formality and THEN rotate/give your best players a rest. Similarly, when three out of your first four league games are away, with one of them at your local rivals and one of them at the home of last years Champions, have a look at the other game. When it's away at the team which is one of the favourites to finish bottom, make double sure you win that one at least. That way, if you do come unstuck in one or two of the other games at least you've got three points in the bag/your first away win of the season etc etc.

I can understand peoples loyalty and reluctance to criticise, and nobody has more regard for Rafa than me. If he is correct however in the way he is doing the job, then all the other managers in the Premiership are wrong.

Rotate the team? yes. Start each game though in isolation of the last/next and pick a completely new bunch of players? No. Not for me anyhow.

Agreed......

[66-1112520797]

I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out.

To be perfectly fair, I'm not suggesting we should play our best eleven week-in, week-out. What I am saying is that six changes to the starting eleven per game is too many in my opinion. I don't think it's conjusive to a team finding rhythm or cohesion.

It says it all really when you consider that all of the new players with the possible exception of Gonzales have started their Liverpool careers well, and yet as a team we have barely functioned at all. Other teams don't play their best eleven every game, they rotate. They don't though, change five or six players every game and in so doing leave Steven Gerrard on the bench in games which he could be needed for.

For me the away game in the Champions League the other night was a perfect example. Six changes and we draw 0-0, with Alonso and Gerrard on the bench. Had we started with either in the team we would have won in my view. Win your first few games, make qualification a formality and THEN rotate/give your best players a rest. Similarly, when three out of your first four league games are away, with one of them at your local rivals and one of them at the home of last years Champions, have a look at the other game. When it's away at the team which is one of the favourites to finish bottom, make double sure you win that one at least. That way, if you do come unstuck in one or two of the other games at least you've got three points in the bag/your first away win of the season etc etc.

I can understand peoples loyalty and reluctance to criticise, and nobody has more regard for Rafa than me. If he is correct however in the way he is doing the job, then all the other managers in the Premiership are wrong.

Rotate the team? yes. Start each game though in isolation of the last/next and pick a completely new bunch of players? No. Not for me anyhow.

Agreed......

I agree with that too.

[Bad Bob]

I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out.

To be perfectly fair, I'm not suggesting we should play our best eleven week-in, week-out. What I am saying is that six changes to the starting eleven per game is too many in my opinion. I don't think it's conjusive to a team finding rhythm or cohesion.

It says it all really when you consider that all of the new players with the possible exception of Gonzales have started their Liverpool careers well, and yet as a team we have barely functioned at all. Other teams don't play their best eleven every game, they rotate. They don't though, change five or six players every game and in so doing leave Steven Gerrard on the bench in games which he could be needed for.

For me the away game in the Champions League the other night was a perfect example. Six changes and we draw 0-0, with Alonso and Gerrard on the bench. Had we started with either in the team we would have won in my view. Win your first few games, make qualification a formality and THEN rotate/give your best players a rest. Similarly, when three out of your first four league games are away, with one of them at your local rivals and one of them at the home of last years Champions, have a look at the other game. When it's away at the team which is one of the favourites to finish bottom, make double sure you win that one at least. That way, if you do come unstuck in one or two of the other games at least you've got three points in the bag/your first away win of the season etc etc.

I can understand peoples loyalty and reluctance to criticise, and nobody has more regard for Rafa than me. If he is correct however in the way he is doing the job, then all the other managers in the Premiership are wrong.

Rotate the team? yes. Start each game though in isolation of the last/next and pick a completely new bunch of players? No. Not for me anyhow.

Good points Mick and I would certainly agree with the head-scratching about Tuesday's line-up in Holland.  Surely one of Gerrard or Alonso had to start to link midfield and attack.  You'll get no argument from me that Rafa was way too conservative in that game and that his persistence in playing Zenden at CM when Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko are all fit and available is exasperating.  PSV were there for the taking but, after the first half (when Kuyt and Bellamy carved them open a fair few times), we were short of ideas going forward and the game cried out for Alonso, Gerrard or both.  As for the Haifa games, I missed them both, but it sounds like the concerns you've raised over formation/team selection there are thoughtful.  So far in the CL, then, Rafa's decisions have been curious at best.

But let's get back to discussing the league for a moment.  Reading between the lines, it seems that your main concern was the team sent out for the Sheffield United game and that you were more or less okay with the teamsheets against West Ham and Everton.  You've explained your main issues with the team selection at Sheffield quite nicely in other posts so I'll just summarize to verify: Crouch should have played, both because he would have caused their CBs problems and because our CMs (Zenden and Sissoko) were not the most adept passers of the ball, meaning that the big man would have been an easier target to hit than the two little fellas (Robbie and Bellamy).  About right?  You see, I read that, and see the logic behind it.  But, I also wonder if hindsight is 20/20 in this situation?  In hindsight, we could have really used Crouch that day and Rafa maybe made a mistake in leaving him on the bench.

But, on the other side of the coin, what did the players on the pitch fail to do that day to ensure a vital 3 points in our opening match.  I still contend that Sheffield United could not live with the team we set out that day from a purely footballing standpoint so what went wrong?  Surely the players who started have to take some responsibility for the points dropped that day?

Just for the record, I am not a blind follower of Rafa nor am I the merry minstrel of squad rotation purely for rotation's sake.  I started this thread (and commented in a similar vein in many other threads) because I just cannot believe how quickly many in the press, on this board and presumably in the stands have jumped on the "new tinkerman" bandwagon.  The post from aCe' above is a perfect example: incredulity and outrage expressed about our excessive squad rotation coupled with an implicit--or in his case explicit--assertion that Rafa's an utter moron for not realizing what everyone else can so plainly see.  I'm sorry, I'm not having this 'Rafa just doesn't get it' stuff.  The man's shown more than enough in his two years here to demonstrate that there is a method to his madness and we'll need to be patient while the learning curve for him and the players is negotiated.  That's not to say that he's above criticism...it's simply to say that a lot of criticism is well over the top and more than a little venomous toward a man that has done so much for the club in such a short period of time.  (And these last comments are in no way directed toward you, Big Mick--you've always been fair and balanced in your criticisms of Rafa.)

Right. Rant over!

[Pedro O'Maradona]

I mean what is the point of having all these players at your disposal, but be expected to play your best eleven week in week out.

To be perfectly fair, I'm not suggesting we should play our best eleven week-in, week-out. What I am saying is that six changes to the starting eleven per game is too many in my opinion. I don't think it's conjusive to a team finding rhythm or cohesion.

It says it all really when you consider that all of the new players with the possible exception of Gonzales have started their Liverpool careers well, and yet as a team we have barely functioned at all. Other teams don't play their best eleven every game, they rotate. They don't though, change five or six players every game and in so doing leave Steven Gerrard on the bench in games which he could be needed for.

For me the away game in the Champions League the other night was a perfect example. Six changes and we draw 0-0, with Alonso and Gerrard on the bench. Had we started with either in the team we would have won in my view. Win your first few games, make qualification a formality and THEN rotate/give your best players a rest. Similarly, when three out of your first four league games are away, with one of them at your local rivals and one of them at the home of last years Champions, have a look at the other game. When it's away at the team which is one of the favourites to finish bottom, make double sure you win that one at least. That way, if you do come unstuck in one or two of the other games at least you've got three points in the bag/your first away win of the season etc etc.

I can understand peoples loyalty and reluctance to criticise, and nobody has more regard for Rafa than me. If he is correct however in the way he is doing the job, then all the other managers in the Premiership are wrong.

Rotate the team? yes. Start each game though in isolation of the last/next and pick a completely new bunch of players? No. Not for me anyhow.

Good points Mick and I would certainly agree with the head-scratching about Tuesday's line-up in Holland.  Surely one of Gerrard or Alonso had to start to link midfield and attack.  You'll get no argument from me that Rafa was way too conservative in that game and that his persistence in playing Zenden at CM when Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko are all fit and available is exasperating.  PSV were there for the taking but, after the first half (when Kuyt and Bellamy carved them open a fair few times), we were short of ideas going forward and the game cried out for Alonso, Gerrard or both.  As for the Haifa games, I missed them both, but it sounds like the concerns you've raised over formation/team selection there are thoughtful.  So far in the CL, then, Rafa's decisions have been curious at best.

But let's get back to discussing the league for a moment.  Reading between the lines, it seems that your main concern was the team sent out for the Sheffield United game and that you were more or less okay with the teamsheets against West Ham and Everton.  You've explained your main issues with the team selection at Sheffield quite nicely in other posts so I'll just summarize to verify: Crouch should have played, both because he would have caused their CBs problems and because our CMs (Zenden and Sissoko) were not the most adept passers of the ball, meaning that the big man would have been an easier target to hit than the two little fellas (Robbie and Bellamy).  About right?  You see, I read that, and see the logic behind it.  But, I also wonder if hindsight is 20/20 in this situation?  In hindsight, we could have really used Crouch that day and Rafa maybe made a mistake in leaving him on the bench.

But, on the other side of the coin, what did the players on the pitch fail to do that day to ensure a vital 3 points in our opening match.  I still contend that Sheffield United could not live with the team we set out that day from a purely footballing standpoint so what went wrong?  Surely the players who started have to take some responsibility for the points dropped that day?

Just for the record, I am not a blind follower of Rafa nor am I the merry minstrel of squad rotation purely for rotation's sake.  I started this thread (and commented in a similar vein in many other threads) because I just cannot believe how quickly many in the press, on this board and presumably in the stands have jumped on the "new tinkerman" bandwagon.  The post from aCe' above is a perfect example: incredulity and outrage expressed about our excessive squad rotation coupled with an implicit--or in his case explicit--assertion that Rafa's an utter moron for not realizing what everyone else can so plainly see.  I'm sorry, I'm not having this 'Rafa just doesn't get it' stuff.  The man's shown more than enough in his two years here to demonstrate that there is a method to his madness and we'll need to be patient while the learning curve for him and the players is negotiated.  That's not to say that he's above criticism...it's simply to say that a lot of criticism is well over the top and more than a little venomous toward a man that has done so much for the club in such a short period of time.  (And these last comments are in no way directed toward you, Big Mick--you've always been fair and balanced in your criticisms of Rafa.)

Right. Rant over!

in my humble opinion ye are both talking a lot sense of this issue...well done.....but it must be said Liverpool arent playing well at the moment and since the start of the season havent looked anywhere as impressive as the latter half of last season, personally i think it is due to the amount of new faces settling in, Rafa is getting close to the squad that he wants but in a way maybe he is changing things a little too quickly (ie selling hamman)and as a result the pre season was a joke and the start of the season very up and down....im sure once the new players settle consistancy will be restored (and if the new players dont measure up there is no doubt rafa will ship them out).....what might help is less chopping and changing and play the in-form players (ie Gerrard v PSv)

[red37]

I think it's a huge mistake to bemoan the rotation policy as the cause for our current indifferent form, and I have no doubt that people will be praising it towards the end of the season when we can put 11 fresh men on the field against 11 battle-weary, exhausted 40-game veterans.

What Rafa has done is nothing short of awesome. He's assembled a team that doesn't consist of a starting 11 and several lower quality backups, but 22 players who are each good enough to contend for their position. I believe that the big picture is to get this squad to be able to play as a cohesive, well-drilled unit no matter who is in those positions, a machine that loses none of it's efficiency or end product regardless of which particular parts are fitted. The team must be used to Pennant playing on the right as they are with Gerrard. They must be used to having Agger sitting in the centre of defence as they are with Sami. Obviously, this is going to take some time, but I reckon it'll happen sooner rather than later.

There is also the fact that we have had an influx of new players. While Pennant and Bellamy should bed in fairly quickly, having had experience in the Premiership, they are having to familiarise themselves with a completely different team to the ones they played for. Our other acquisitions will take slightly longer, but they are obviously quality players and I'm confident they will also adjust to the Premiership. But it's going to take more than three or four games into the season before we see the benefits they will undoubtedly bring.

We should also take into account that this season has arrived on the back of a World Cup, and since we are such a good side with a huge amount of talented players, we had lots of representation out there. This meant that Rafa didn't have a great deal of pre-season training time with many of them, and some of them will obviously be feeling the effects of having played such a number of matches close together. The rotation policy will cater for that, and allow players to regain full fitness without a discernible drop in quality of our team.

We've also had injuries, more than a few spots of bad luck, and crammed fixture lists to contend with.

In short, stop moaning about the rotation policy that's going to win us the Premiership at some point during the next few years. Instead, revel in the fact that we've got 20+ players who, to a man, are good enough to wear that red shirt.

one of the best posts on here for a while. and totally echoed by me.

rome certainly wasnt built in a day...but when it was, it was a joy to behold.

the only chink in the armour of this piece is, while the rest of the contenders may well flounder over a long campaign. affording the advantage to a contender with a  'stronger' squad. (even discounting chelsea, who may well be able to replace like for like often enough...but in terms of match-fitness, their replacements would be well short) i feel we are still 3 or 4 short of having those same solid foundations. make no bones..the liverpool squad in its entirity is very good. but no more than that, yet.

but the real difficulty here is that, in the scenario described above, it would of course had become a 'real' advantage had we not of dropped early points from which to have been in a position to strike at the enemy, terminally. because lets face it, how many points WILL they drop?  tired squad or not...

we'll see.

but lose on sunday and for me.......   doubtful if there will be enough future opportunities TO capitalise.

[66-1112520797]

Most people on here seem to be as dissapointed at the selection of Zenden just as much as the rotation policy itself. I'd like to say I agree with Micks view that half the team shouldnt be changed as often as it appears to be. But has it really been changed that much When taking injuries into consideration ? so far in the league we have started with the following :

Sheffield U

Reina

Kromkamp (Finnan injured)
Hyypia
Cara        (Cara got injured)
Riise        ( Riise got injured)

Gerrard  RM, most say his best position
Sissoko  CM
Zenden  CM
Aurelio   LM   went to LB when Riise got injured,

Bellamy
Fowler

Gonzo & Agger came on in there respective positions due to injuries, but really the only head scratcher there is the choice of the two midgets upfront. Especially if your playing Gerrard out wide, who can whip in some quality crosses as can Aurelio on the other. It seems very strange to select the two small guys upfront for this, because there not going to get to much of a supply through the center of the midfield with Zenden playing. He's not a creative player, basicly he's an average midfielder with equally average attributes technically. But still with Sissoko next to him, he's good enough to play against the likes of Sheffield U.

So next up was West Ham

Reina

Finnan
Agger  ( Cara still injured)
Hyypia
Aurelio ( Riise still injured)

Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Garcia

Crouch
Bellamy

I think that was the midfield, only Gerrard kept his place but it was pretty recognisable to that of last season barrinf Pennant. The way I see that midfield to the Sheffield one is there is much more flamboyancy in it. Away to Sheffield I think Rafa went for a more battling approach in the center especially, but at home to West Ham he's looked for the quality in players and possesion to win us that match. The only other change was Crouch upfront, so altogether there were six changes in the team. Four were unforced but we won so who are we to complain when we're wining

Everton 

Reina

Finnan
Hyypia
Cara
Riise back from injurey, but got injured again

Gerrard back on the right
Sissoko
Alonso
Aurelio

Fowler
Kuyt


Now that team on paper looks strong to me and before the game I thought Rafa had picked the right team. So from the previous game there were four changes, in comes Kuyt, Sissoko, Fowler and Riise. I'd say the maximum number of players being rotated would ideally be three per game to keep some kind of co-hesion. Rafa changed four, but all four are good quality players, and really it was the rest of the team that day that were way below par. And that wasnt because of the changes Rafa brought in, individually they were sloppy defensively and up the other end it was never going to be our day in front of goal.



Looking at just our league games and not including substitutions being made Rafa has rotated on average about four players from game to game. In the West Ham game an additional two were made because of the injuries to Cara & Riise. Maybe one player too many being rotated, but as I said bringing in three new faces every other game is certainly feasible IMO. At this early stage into the season I'm not blaming Rafa's rotating in league games, its more than that IMO. Tiredness from the WC our pre-season preperatiions and these meaningless England games ,those three have hindered our start more than Rafa's rotations.
He did get it wrong against Sheffield U, but not because of Zenden we missed Crouch more than Alonso IMO.
Eyebrows were again raised at his line-up against PSV which comes slap bang in the middle of two of our possibly hardest games of the season. I think Rafa was satisfied with that result and I was considering the team on paper. If it were at the knock out stages I'd expect a near enough full strength team, but its a mini league where we can afford to rotate and rest and use our squad to its full potential. Again we didnt win because Zenden played, our strikers did have a few opportunities plus theres the rest of the midfield to chip in and help out the attack, not just Zenden. I thought it was a good and brave decision to bench Gerrard and Xabi considering our opponents on sunday, and they did come on in the second half also so its not like they didnt get the chance to play. Gerrard came closest to scoring, and I'd agree we would of been more threatening going forward if they'd have both started, but from Rafa's original selection it was obvious he picked a team to contain PSV which we did, and after the Everton showing I think he appreciated a clean sheet as much as anything.
All in all I'm not concerned with the 'chopping & changing' more so of the form of our players individually.

[bigmick]

It's a really good post Bamaga mate and an interesting insight. Just one small point, in the Everton game Garcia started wide-left with Aurelio at left-back, Riise was on the bench. Your formation would have been a better idea but Riise probably wasn't felt to be fit enough to start. Your correct about Zenden, certainly as far as I'm concerned anyway. Whenever we play him it feels to me like we are voluntarily handicapping ourselves.

It goes a bit deeper though for me. You have to look at the team we played against Haifa at Home, with Bellamy on his own up front. Ditto the pre-season games where the teams we picked made it impossible to gain any momentum. I know you have to give young players a go but it makes more sense to do so in an organized structure where he is surrounded by cohesion rather than confusion. The career and confidence of young Jack Hobbs may never be the same after his calamitous introduction to the first team ranks amongst all the comings and goings.

I've read some of the defenders of the systems employed and some (particularly Bad Bobs) are very eloquent and convincing. I guess it's one of the beauties of the game though that it divides opinion so cleanly, constantly drawing lines in the sand which have to be stood on either side of, straddling not being an option. I'm on the "there's too much tinkering" side I suppose, and no amount of justification would change my mind. I hope I'm wrong of course and that we win the title

[jammy]

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