Liverpool FC Forum

[Bad Bob]

I'm not going to repeat what I've been saying in other threads but those who've read my comments will know that I just don't buy that Rafa has been rotating the squad excessively over the first month of the season. 

For me, beyond the changes forced on him due to injuries to Finnan (first match), Carragher, Riise and Sissoko, Rafa's "tactical" changes (with the exception of Zenden at CM in Sheffield) have made sense and have been reasonable given the opponents and especially given the numerous interruptions for international games.  Add to that we have a whole host of new players who haven't yet been fully integrated into the squad and you have a situation where our "best 11" is not yet apparent (at least not in the 'creative' positions).  So, calling for Rafa to pull his finger out and just stick with the best 11 is, IMHO, a bit misguided.

The bottom line for me is that the players we had on the pitch and on the bench for the first 3 games this season should have had the quality and fight to dispatch Sheffield United, West Ham and Everton comfortably.  The fact that they didn't frustrates me too but I don't see it as rotation problem.  Rather, the blame lies with the players on the pitch who are just not doing the business.

Having said that, a lot of posters I respect on this board seem certain that excessive rotation has happened this season and that it is a main culprit for our indifferent form.  So, I'd love to see an empassioned yet respectful discussion over how much "chopping and changing" Rafa's been doing and whether it truly has been too much. 

Your thoughts, please.

[stmichael]

I bet you if we asked you all to name your best Liverpool team from the current squad they'd be loads of different answers. Last season bar who played with Peter Crouch we all knew what the best Liverpool 11 was. Unfortunately this season, we've had to rotate the defence (the one area that shouldn't be rotated under normal circumstances) due to injuries.

So can we discusss in a rational non abusive way If Rafa knows what his best team is or does he have too many toys to play with and is he playing with his favourite toys when he shouldnt be?

In a funny sort of way, I think yesterday's defeat will have gone a long way to helping Rafa know what his best team is. I'm confident the necessary lessons will be learned.

[red37]

im getting used to the idea of the "squad" based system so currently in vogue. reluctantly i have to say.

the idea of at least 2 alternatives in every position is something we just havnt been able to embrace over the recent past. until now. and in essence it is the way to go.
although employing it effectively is going to take time to fine-tune.

rafa benitez is obviously (correctly?) a fan of the whole idea of strength in depth. which as we all know, over 60+ games, is something of an advantage to be a master of.

but at the expense of a settled 11    well for me, we havnt reached anything like that scenario. yet. but, it will come.

like many projects, it isnt attainable overnight and not wanting to pour oil on the fire..has little evidence of becoming so, at this stage of an embryonic campaign. due mainly to the obvious.

injuries/internationals out of the way. im sure and expect to see this become the case. until then its a case of making the best of what there is.

however, we are certainly further along the road than many here are hesitant to see. 2007 may be the year. but id be a bit more confident for next term just yet.

good points bob.

[bigmick]

I hear you Bob and you're certainly one of the respected posters on here yourself. My point is that we should have been starting with broadly or best eleven from last season even in the pre-season games. Bring the new lads in gradually but bed them in amongst players who already know the score.

We should have treated the games against Sheffield United away and Haifa at home as cup finals for two reasons. Firstly, you knew they were going to. Second, a good win agaisnt Haifa at home would have taken the pressure off in the second leg and meant we could have played our best eleven at Bramhall lane. Instead of that we bizarrely started with Bellamy on his own up front in the Champions league Home game and Crouch on the bench away to Sheffield United.

This is not rotation, it's just silliness. Out of our first four games, Sheffield United away was always going to be the only nailed on three pointer. We HAD to win there. Defeat at Everton though painfull was no shock, teams do win derby games from time to time. Similarly it's obvious that it will be difficult to take points from Stamford Bridge. Lose there and we still aren't out of it but clearly we are more out of it than we were before the season started.

I'm not so good on the old computer but I'd be interested if anybody could pull up our first twenty league games of last season and look at the team we put out. I am certain  it will show that after about ten games we began to play a settled team and began to climb the table. Unfortunately, we were able to claim at the end of the season that had we have had a better start then we might have won the thing. If we don't now win at stamford Bridge we may be able to say the same thing again this season. Tell you what, I reckon next season we might even play a settled team at the start of the season and then rotate sparingly from there. It's just a hunch but there you go.

[bigmick]

I hear you Bob and you're certainly one of the respected posters on here yourself. My point is that we should have been starting with broadly or best eleven from last season even in the pre-season games. Bring the new lads in gradually but bed them in amongst players who already know the score.

We should have treated the games against Sheffield United away and Haifa at home as cup finals for two reasons. Firstly, you knew they were going to. Second, a good win agaisnt Haifa at home would have taken the pressure off in the second leg and meant we could have played our best eleven at Bramhall lane. Instead of that we bizarrely started with Bellamy on his own up front in the Champions league Home game and Crouch on the bench away to Sheffield United.

This is not rotation, it's just silliness. Out of our first four games, Sheffield United away was always going to be the only nailed on three pointer. We HAD to win there. Defeat at Everton though painfull was no shock, teams do win derby games from time to time. Similarly it's obvious that it will be difficult to take points from Stamford Bridge. Lose there and we still aren't out of it but clearly we are more out of it than we were before the season started.

I'm not so good on the old computer but I'd be interested if anybody could pull up our first twenty league games of last season and look at the team we put out. I am certain  it will show that after about ten games we began to play a settled team and began to climb the table. Unfortunately, we were able to claim at the end of the season that had we have had a better start then we might have won the thing. If we don't now win at stamford Bridge we may be able to say the same thing again this season. Tell you what, I reckon next season we might even play a settled team at the start of the season and then rotate sparingly from there. It's just a hunch but there you go.

[Mannyk]

I think it has been six competitive games this year and below is a list of who has played ( numbers in brackets are games used as subs)

Dudek     0
Reina      6
Aurelio    3(2)
Palleta    0
Finnan    5
Hyppia    5
Agger     3(1)
Riise       3(1)
Carra      4
Diao        0
Gonzales  2(3)
Gerard     4(2)
Alonso     4(2)
Sisoko      5
Warnock   1
Zenden     3(1)
Penannt     4(2)
Garcia        4(1)
Bellamy      3(2)
Fowler        2
Crouch        4(1)
Kuyt            0(2)

Thats 22 minus Warnock.Only really counting first team members

Seams from this that our defence has been pretty conssitent in terms of games but i think thats because of the lack of options  and injuries.

Has it been chopping and changing from Rafa? yeah i think so . I think he is trying to sort out the combinations. Especially in attack. I think if we did not have such a heavy schedule then logically you would see him settle on a line up that was more consistent . Common sense says you obviously can't keep playing the same players week in week out. I think if the team was winning then this would not be a topic?

[66-1112520797]

I'm not going to repeat what I've been saying in other threads but those who've read my comments will know that I just don't buy that Rafa has been rotating the squad excessively over the first month of the season. 

For me, beyond the changes forced on him due to injuries to Finnan (first match), Carragher, Riise and Sissoko, Rafa's "tactical" changes (with the exception of Zenden at CM in Sheffield) have made sense and have been reasonable given the opponents and especially given the numerous interruptions for international games.  Add to that we have a whole host of new players who haven't yet been fully integrated into the squad and you have a situation where our "best 11" is not yet apparent (at least not in the 'creative' positions).  So, calling for Rafa to pull his finger out and just stick with the best 11 is, IMHO, a bit misguided.

The bottom line for me is that the players we had on the pitch and on the bench for the first 3 games this season should have had the quality and fight to dispatch Sheffield United, West Ham and Everton comfortably.  The fact that they didn't frustrates me too but I don't see it as rotation problem.  Rather, the blame lies with the players on the pitch who are just not doing the business.

Having said that, a lot of posters I respect on this board seem certain that excessive rotation has happened this season and that it is a main culprit for our indifferent form.  So, I'd love to see an empassioned yet respectful discussion over how much "chopping and changing" Rafa's been doing and whether it truly has been too much. 

Your thoughts, please.

I'd sit on your side of the fence with this one Bob, its always easier to blame formations, rotations, decisions from the manager. When really its more of the simple fact our players dont perform.

Yesterdays result in particular had nothing to do with chopping and changing. The team was much of the same, or what you'd expect. Only upfront was really different with Fowler and Crouch, and IMO rotating forwards doesnt really have any detrimental effect on the side (in a negative way).

[bigmick]

and IMO rotating forwards doesnt really have any detrimental effect on the side (in a negative way).

You may be right Bamaga but I must confess I hope that Arsenal rotate Henri, Man Utd rotate Rooney and Chelsea rotate Shevcenco when we play them all the same.

[66-1112520797]

and IMO rotating forwards doesnt really have any detrimental effect on the side (in a negative way).

You may be right Bamaga but I must confess I hope that Arsenal rotate Henri, Man Utd rotate Rooney and Chelsea rotate Shevcenco when we play them all the same.

I hope so too.

But what I'm trying to say, is if there is anywhere we can rotate on occasion without disrupting the co-hesion through out the team its upfront.

[Pedro O'Maradona]

In my opinion, Football is simple game ...Pick your best eleven and tactics and impose your game on teams if the players and systems are good enough you win ...thats simple....So therefore Rafa must know his best [available] eleven and the tactics best suited.... look at the games against chelsea....in theory because Chelsea can buy whoever they like they should be better than Liverpool however tactically Rafa was able to level the playing pitch by tactically outplaying mourinho....When it works its great, when it doesnt it looks awful, same against everton, player for player everton are inferior but would be well up for the game (their cup final so to speak) and rafa attempted to counter this by playing carra and robbie...unfortunately it didnt work this time (if it had wed all be saying Rafa is a genius again) I think Liverpool dont impose their own game on teams often enuf, look at the great teams down the years Liverpool in the 70 and 80s, Man ure in the 90s...they imposed their game on teams and they ground them down because they had the best players and the best systems of play to suit those players. I think it is a mistake to chop and change for the sake of it. have the confidence to pick the best players available and let them go out and do it.....
Another factor is the large size of the squad, I know the ideal situation is the 2 players per position...thats great but play the best player at that time and let the other player train away til he gets his chance.....

[RUSHIE#9]

Excellent thread Bob.
I've been disappointed at the way some of the whingers have been having a go at Rafa's "ROTATION" on here in the first couple of games but I agree with you that apart from changes forced on him by injuries he has pretty much kept in a core set of players either starting or on the bench.
Defensively our problems started when Riise & Carragher got injured in the first game. Since then we've had to bring in Agger (who's done very well indeed) and Aurelio (who IMO has left a lot to be desired at LB). I think that Rafa could possibly have been looking at Warnock's fitness levels in the Haifa game with a view to using him at LB in the league only for him to get injured as well. 
The midfield has had a main core of GERRARD, MOMO & ALONSO for the majority of the games with one other usually coming in to join them. At the current time I would possibly leave Alonso on the bench with Gerrard and Momo in the middle 'cos Xabi has been way below his standards so far and I really believe that is hurting us. DON'T get me wrong, I'm not blaming Xabi for our poor form but his distribution of the ball is so important for us but since the cup final he just hasn't performed IMO. Agreeably Rafa has sort of been swapping the LW around a bit as SPEEDY hasn't yet fully adjusted to the premiership and with injuries again in this position to Kewell and a lesser extent Riise affecting our options here some rotation has been necessary. A possible solution could be to go with Bellamy cutting in from the left here which he likes to do but that would then leave LB a bit exposed.
Up front I think it's just been a case of trying to find which combination clicks fastest but we may start to see more of Kuyt as he get used to his new team mates.

[ConnO'var]

I hear you Bob and agree.....

I believe that we must come to terms with the idea of squad rotation.... It is a reality that is part of the modern game and a necessary evil.
However, and I've said this before, the spine of the team needs to remain....

In my opinion, Rafa has made some strange decisions in terms of squad selection the last 3 games.... the Bellamy and Fowler partnership and Zenden in central midfield v Sheffield United... Garcia on the left v West Ham and against the Bitters..... leaving out Kuyt from the starting 11 against the Bitters.

This all seems to be excessive tinkering with our midfield and forward line.... The defensive changes, I can understand to a certain extent as we've had injuries and such.... But with the benefit of hindsight, Carra and Riise were rushed back too soon for reasons known only to Rafa.

We can't expect the team to have any sort of rhythm if we continue to chop and change.... Especially in the team's engine room.... It's my opinion that Rafa's trying to shoehorn 3 Central midfield players into a 4 man midfield. Xabi, Momo and Stevie will work if all 3 are firing on all cylinders and Stevie remains on the right.... but too often he drifts in or swaps with the other wing in the hope of confusing the opponents.... going by the 1st 3 games we've played, this tactic is confusing our own boys..... and further compounded by the fact that Xabi is NOT firing on all cylinders.... making our midfield look a little disjointed at the mo......

Also, we've got to stop bypassing the midfield... Hyypia does this too often when he lumps those long balls of his, though to be fair, he didn't do as much v the bitters....

We had arguably the best defense last season but even though it's early, it's looking like 2006/7 is one season too many for Sammi.... He never HAD pace but is noticeably slowing down..... I think it's time for Agger to step up and make the centre back role his own this season.

The problem is that some of the players we had on the field this last Saturday of shame just didn't have the heart to win.... Putting a regular "spine" out there would definitely help as the back-up guys would know that they'd need to be on their toes to get a game instead of a guaranteed place every few games due to the rotation policy..... shake up their hunger a bit and with the added benefit of a steady rhythm and understanding  of roles which can only come with familiarity of playing with the same key players week-in and week-out....

My 2p worth at any rate.... 

[J*o*n*D*o*e]

stats for the start of last season.

first 10 league games

used 19 players

2 players played  10 reina, carra
2 players played   9 hyppia, alonso
2 players played   8 gerrard, finnan
5 players played   6 warnock, sissoko, garcia, cisse, riise
2 players played   5 crouch, morientes
1 player  played   4 zenden
3 players played   3 hamann, josemi, traore
1 player  played   2 pongolle
1 player  played   1 kewell

W 4   D 4   L 2   PTS 16

stats for the next 10 league games

used 18 players

5 players played 10 reina, carra, hyppia, finnan, crouch
1 player played   9 gerrard
1 player played   8 alonso
3 players played  6 riise, sissoko, kewell
2 players played  5 morientes, garcia
2 players played  4 warnock, cisse
1 player played   3 hamman
3 players played  1 traore, pongolle, zenden

W 9   D 1   L  0   PTS 28

these are all starting 11 and dont show changes caused through injury

sorry if you wanted cup games included


this is abit rushed so i hope i havnt made any mistakes, would of liked to look into a few more things but alas not enough time.

[stmichael]

Rafa talks about rotating players because of the amount of games we play but lets be honest, a players state of mind is just as important, and being dropped or rested probably doesn't help things.

[Lando_Griffin]

I'm not going to repeat what I've been saying in other threads but those who've read my comments will know that I just don't buy that Rafa has been rotating the squad excessively over the first month of the season. 

For me, beyond the changes forced on him due to injuries to Finnan (first match), Carragher, Riise and Sissoko, Rafa's "tactical" changes (with the exception of Zenden at CM in Sheffield) have made sense and have been reasonable given the opponents and especially given the numerous interruptions for international games.  Add to that we have a whole host of new players who haven't yet been fully integrated into the squad and you have a situation where our "best 11" is not yet apparent (at least not in the 'creative' positions).  So, calling for Rafa to pull his finger out and just stick with the best 11 is, IMHO, a bit misguided.

The bottom line for me is that the players we had on the pitch and on the bench for the first 3 games this season should have had the quality and fight to dispatch Sheffield United, West Ham and Everton comfortably.  The fact that they didn't frustrates me too but I don't see it as rotation problem.  Rather, the blame lies with the players on the pitch who are just not doing the business.

Having said that, a lot of posters I respect on this board seem certain that excessive rotation has happened this season and that it is a main culprit for our indifferent form.  So, I'd love to see an empassioned yet respectful discussion over how much "chopping and changing" Rafa's been doing and whether it truly has been too much. 

Your thoughts, please.

I agree with your sentiments exactly, mate.

Well said.