"chopping and changing" - Myth or reality?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Bad Bob » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:02 pm

I see the press are back to this rubbish again :angry:.  This is the lead story on SOCCERNET at the moment:

Benitez to tinker again
Rafael Benitez is set to live up to his new-found reputation by changing his Liverpool team for the 94th successive time, for their Champions League Group C match against Galatasaray tonight. Despite constant criticism, particularly from the army of ex-Liverpool stars who are now TV pundits, the Spaniard barely considers for one second that they might have a point when they demand he picks his best side and sticks by it.


The thing that really gets on my t!ts with this sort of stuff (besides the smug holier-than-thou attitude...like these hacks know more than Rafa :no) is how lazy it is to rattle off the "94th successive game" mantra as though that explains everything.  It pays no attention to context (injuries, suspension, loss of form, tactics...), number of changes made (1? 2? 7?), or--most importantly--the results achieved during that run.

So let's break it down: Rafa last fielded the same side two matches in a row in February of 2005.  Since then, we've:

1) Won the Champions League
2) Won the Super Cup
3) Won the F.A. Cup
4) Finished with our highest points tally in years (not to mention the cleansheets tally...)
5) Won the Charity Shield
6) We've qualified for the CL group stages for a 3rd consecutive year under Rafa

How the f.uck can you argue with those results?  Bottom line is, you can't.  So while the press continues to bleat on about 94 successive games and counting they are missing the obvious:

RAFA'S POLICY OF SQUAD ROTATION WORKS.  IT WORKED AT VALENCIA AND IT'S WORKING HERE.  THE RESULTS DON'T LIE!


Rant over.   :cool:
Last edited by Bad Bob on Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bad Bob » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:55 pm

"Chopping and changing" update...

(1) LFC vs. Maccabi Haifa

               JR

SF        JC     SH      JAR

JP      XA   SG   MS      BZ
               
                CB

(2) Sheffield U vs. LFC

               JR

JK       JC       SH       JAR

SG      MS      BZ        FA
         
         CB       RF

(3) Maccabi Haifa vs. LFC

               JR

SF       SH      DA       SW

JP      XA      MS        MG
         
         LG       PC

(4) LFC vs. West Ham

                JR

SF       SH      DA       FA

JP      XA       SG        LG
         
         CB      PC

(5) Everton vs. LFC

                 JR

SF       JC      SH       FA

SG      XA      MS        LG
         
         RF       PC

(6) PSV vs. LFC

                JR

SF       JC      DA       SW

JP      MS      BZ        FA
         
         CB       DK

(7) Chelsea vs. LFC

               JR

SF       JC      DA       SW

JP      XA      MS        SG
         
         CB       DK

(8) LFC vs. Newcastle U

               JR

SF       JC      DA       FA

SG      XA      MS        LG
         
         CB       DK

(9) LFC vs. Tottenham

               JR

SF       SH      DA       JAR

SG      XA      MS        MG
         
         CB       DK

(10) LFC vs. Galatasaray

               JR

SF       JC      DA       FA

JP      SG      XA        LG
         
         PC       DK


STARTS TO DATE/POSSIBLE MATCHES

Reina 10/10
Finnan 9/9
Carragher 7/8
Hyypia 6/10
Agger 7/10
Riise 3/5
Aurelio 6/10
Warnock 3/9
Gerrard 8/10
Alonso 8/10
Sissoko 8/9
Garcia 5/10
Pennant 6/10
Gonzales 2/? (Echo today suggested he had a virus for a few games)
Zenden 3/10
Bellamy 7/10
Kuyt 5/7
Crouch 4/10
Fowler 2/10
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Postby Poolinc. » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:15 pm

I suppose with 2 major competitions, Premiership and Champs League, squad rotation is a fact of life and now an unchangeable aspect for the top teams, not just in England, but for all Europe's elite. And there's a lot to be said for not allowing a player, any player, to think he's an automatic on every team sheet.
However, i think it's time to have another look at Dudek! I know there are peeps who think the sun, moon and stars shine out of Pepe, but, alas, I am not one of them. The more i see, the more I worry. I am convinced his relexes are not the best! (anyone able to give an example of a reflex save?) I thought he was poor with the 2nd goal last night. Also i worry about his judgement of crosses.. I'm not convinced he's our unquestionable automatic #1..
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Postby Bad Bob » Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:28 pm

"Chopping and changing" update...

(1) LFC vs. Maccabi Haifa (Result: 2-1)

               JR

SF        JC     SH      JAR

JP      XA   SG   MS      BZ
               
                CB

(2) Sheffield U vs. LFC (Result: 1-1)

               JR

JK       JC       SH       JAR

SG      MS      BZ        FA
         
         CB       RF

(3) Maccabi Haifa vs. LFC (Result: 0-1)

               JR

SF       SH      DA       SW

JP      XA      MS        MG
         
         LG       PC

(4) LFC vs. West Ham (Result: 2-1)

                JR

SF       SH      DA       FA

JP      XA       SG        LG
         
         CB      PC

(5) Everton vs. LFC (Result: 3-0)

                 JR

SF       JC      SH       FA

SG      XA      MS        LG
         
         RF       PC

(6) PSV vs. LFC (Result: 0-0)

                JR

SF       JC      DA       SW

JP      MS      BZ        FA
         
         CB       DK

(7) Chelsea vs. LFC (Result: 1-0)

               JR

SF       JC      DA       SW

JP      XA      MS        SG
         
         CB       DK

(8) LFC vs. Newcastle U (Result: 2-0)

               JR

SF       JC      DA       FA

SG      XA      MS        LG
         
         CB       DK

(9) LFC vs. Tottenham (Result: 3-0)

               JR

SF       SH      DA       JAR

SG      XA      MS        MG
         
         CB       DK

(10) LFC vs. Galatasaray (Result: 3-2)

               JR

SF       JC      DA       FA

JP      SG      XA        LG
         
         PC       DK


(11) Bolton vs. LFC (Result: 2-0)

               JR

SF       JC      SH       JAR

JP       XA      MS        SG
         
         CB       DK

STARTS TO DATE/POSSIBLE MATCHES

Reina 11/11
Finnan 10/10
Carragher 8/9
Hyypia 7/11
Agger 7/11
Riise 4/6
Aurelio 6/11
Warnock 3/10
Gerrard 9/11
Alonso 9/11
Sissoko 9/10
Garcia 5/11
Pennant 7/11
Gonzales 2/9(?)
Zenden 3/11
Bellamy 8/11
Kuyt 6/8
Crouch 4/11
Fowler 2/11
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Postby Ciggy » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:43 am

Time to cut out the tinkering
Oct 4 2006
By Tommy Smith, Liverpool Echo

AFTER Liverpool's indifferent start to the season my one plea to Rafa Benitez is: Stick by your strongest team.

The Bolton game was a big disappointment - and not just because of the result.

The second half was particularly poor for the Reds and they are still well short of finding the rhythm that was evident last season.

Much has been made again of the changes made by Benitez. There were four from the team which had beaten Galatasaray - and I haven't a clue why.

It doesn't help players' confidence when, after a good performance the previous match, they are left to kick their heels on the bench in the next. And the switches didn't have the desired effect at Bolton, anyway.

Every player thrives on confidence. The only time I was angry at Anfield was when Shanks dropped me. I went in and asked for a transfer!

I told him I wanted first team football. He told me that he thought I was lacking confidence, was being affected by the captaincy, and I was more interested in controlling team-mates on the pitch than concentrating on my own game.

I played my tripe out in the reserves and got back into the team.

Benite z's changes are not as obvious as that - so how can players be confident when they haven't played for two or three games.

A really good squad is your first 11, followed by others who step in for injuries and players' loss of form. Take Peter Crouch, for instance, who scored two fine goals in the Champions League and was then left out on Saturday.

Benitez is making the game complicated for his team. Some say changes keep players on their toes, but I believe they become frustrated when they don't know if they're playing from one game to the next.

Benitez is a good manager and an honest man, but he gives me the impression he is still not satisfied with what he has got.

However, two incidents occurred in the Bolton game that changed its complexion.

Firstly, evidence has shown the linesman was wrong to have penalised Pepe Reina - he wasn't even in line with the penalty box when he flagged. Any decision can be costly, like that one turned out to be, and it annoys me that such controversies are not subject to new technology.

It would take just seconds to decide whether it was a right decision or not and, with replays, it would put pressure on refs and linesmen to get it right first time.

The other incident concerned Abdoulaye Faye, who had already been booked for a bad tackle when he clashed in an aerial duel with Dirk Kuyt.

TV pundit Andy Gray tried to convince everyone it was just a usual clash of heads, but some commentators, like me, saw the collision as a foul. He should have been booked and dismissed.

What the result may have been without those controversies, I don't know. But both the ref and linesman were at fault on the day, and those incidents just added to the frustrations of another poor Reds showing.

Crouch is reborn

I HAVE been a critic of Peter Crouch because I didn't think he was a Liverpool-type player.

But there is no doubt he has improved tremendously since he joined the Reds. It took him time to settle down both at Anfield and at England level.

But he now looks as if he is enjoying himself and scoring goals for fun. His acrobatic effort against the Turks was brilliant.

Good luck to the lad.

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0500liv....ge.html

I agree with Tommy Smith this article is spot on.
There is no-one anywhere in the world at any stage who is any bigger or any better than this football club.

Kenny Dalglish 1/2/2011

REST IN PEACE PHIL, YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:36 pm

An interesting and balanced view of "chopping and changing"


Change for change's sake?Norman Hubbard

With a typical blend of eccentricity and intelligence, Claudio Ranieri coined his own nickname, the 'tinkerman'.


Benitez is approaching a century of unchanged teams from his large squad.It may be time for him to develop a new moniker, however, for he is in danger of losing his current tag to Rafael Benitez. If the excitable Italian made a more obvious tinkerman than the seemingly rational Spaniard, a reluctance to name the same 11 in the last 94 matches suggests the stolid Castilian's appearance belies a similarly changeable manager.


And as one of English football's most enduring clichés is 'never change a winning team', any subsequent setback can be attributed to Benitez's inability to present the same teamsheet. The realities of defeat are often more complex, but the school of lazy punditry finds fault with the Liverpool manager; that his tinkering contributed to eventual victory in Istanbul is currently being ignored.

But as Benitez approaches an unlikely century, there are five facets to his ever-changing team selection. The first is a methodology that is the polar opposite of, say, Arsene Wenger's: a concession to the opposition in his thought process.

Hence Sami Hyypia's height led to his inclusion against Bolton while Luis Garcia's European pedigree resulted in his starting place against Galatasaray. They were selections based on scientific assessment rather than blind faith, a belief the best available 11 is dictated by situation and opposition rather than merely fitness and suspension.

Then there are the merits of squad rotation. Benitez's thesis - that it is impossible for a club with aspirations to succeed to play 65 games a season while fielding the same 11 players throughout - is gaining widespread acceptance. Indeed, it is substantiated by Fabio Capello's Juventus, who steamrollered their way towards the Italian title in successive seasons, but tired together and limped out of the Champions League. Liverpool, in contrast, ended the campaign in blistering form.

Then a summer recruitment drive left Benitez with a squad size commensurate with Liverpool's status among the biggest clubs. The dynamics of the modern transfer market and the absence of a billionaire backer, however, are contributing factors in the Spaniard's decision to split his transfer budget several ways. Lacking any galacticos means there are few automatic choices.

Squad rotation, therefore, becomes a method of placating the majority of his charges, albeit while elating few of them.

Fourthly, there are the options at Benitez's disposal which, given the adaptability of many of his players, are more than Sir Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho or Wenger have to ponder.

Benitez has utilised Gerrard in a series of positions. Though greatest success has come from the right of midfield.Versatility is an asset Benitez values; the addition of Fabio Aurelio and Boudewijn Zenden, providing an alternative in three and four positions respectively, shows at much. At Anfield, however, accusations of being a jack of all trades, but a master of none could dog either player. Steven Gerrard, Luis Garcia, John Arne Riise and Craig Bellamy are all flexible enough to complicate selection similarly.


Meanwhile, summer acquisitions give Benitez more players to perm from, especially in the final third. Mark Gonzalez and Jermaine Pennant provide pace on either flank, but are rarely selected together. One change, in other words, necessitates two to provide balance on the other wing and a third midfielder with defensive awareness.

That frequently involves Gerrard. If Benitez is yet to grant his captain a permanent position, that should not necessarily be regarded as a fault.

His preference for centre midfield is well known and his capacity to dominate is established yet, when Gerrard was granted his favourite role against Galatasaray, Liverpool missed Momo Sissoko's physicality; pair him with Gerrard and they may have cause to lament the absence of Xabi Alonso's inventive passing. That the majority of Gerrard's 23 goals came from the right flank last season should not be ignored, nor that he was arguably the outstanding Premiership player in that position.

If Gerrard and Luis Garcia, each deployed just behind the main striker, are included, Benitez has six options in attack and 15 possible partnerships.

Yet, where the squad system was abandoned, the result was despondency for Robbie Fowler; even the substitutes' bench has been beyond his grasp for the last five games. For five of them, Bellamy and Dirk Kuyt were united, providing an indication that they may be regarded as a long-term partnership. For Benitez, the consequence was criticism because of the omission of Peter Crouch.

Other players lend themselves to rotation. The enigmatic Luis Garcia, capable of outstanding goals and inexplicable misses, is one such. A matchwinner who can be mediocre, he lacks the consistency to be regarded as an automatic starter.

But who is? Benitez's propensity to rest Gerrard, particularly in European away games, means Jamie Carragher and Jose Reina are the closest, and even the latter is on probation.


Empics
Jamie Carragher: Sole undroppable member?Even the central defensive partnership, largely untouched last season, has been altered, the result of a rare injury to Carragher and evidence of the admirable Hyypia's decline which, coupled with Daniel Agger's precocious performances, means another significant decision every match for the Spaniard.


In contrast, at Chelsea, Petr Cech, John Terry, Claude Makelele, Frank Lampard, Michael Ballack and Andriy Shevchenko are assured of their places, especially for the bigger games. Arsenal and Manchester United can each boast half a dozen players similarly certain to start.

Whether a lack of consistency in team selection at Anfield equates to a lack of consistency in results is another matter. Certainly, it is the frequency of Benitez's changes that can be questioned; four or five alterations in the starting 11 are not unusual.

The suggestion is that he does not know his best team - and this interpretation is that it depends upon the circumstances anyway - but that lends an opportunity, especially for newcomers like Bellamy, Pennant and Gonzales, to prove they belong in it.

And in the meantime, whenever Liverpool next win because of a substitution or surprise selection from Benitez, it could be seen as a reason to carry on tinkering.
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Postby lfc_amy » Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:22 pm

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Postby Bad Bob » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:59 am

"Chopping and changing" update...

(1) LFC vs. Maccabi Haifa (Result: 2-1)

               JR

SF        JC     SH      JAR

JP      XA   SG   MS      BZ
               
                CB

(2) Sheffield U vs. LFC (Result: 1-1)

               JR

JK       JC       SH       JAR

SG      MS      BZ        FA
         
         CB       RF

(3) Maccabi Haifa vs. LFC (Result: 0-1)

               JR

SF       SH      DA       SW

JP      XA      MS        MG
         
         LG       PC

(4) LFC vs. West Ham (Result: 2-1)

                JR

SF       SH      DA       FA

JP      XA       SG        LG
         
         CB      PC

(5) Everton vs. LFC (Result: 3-0)

                 JR

SF       JC      SH       FA

SG      XA      MS        LG
         
         RF       PC

(6) PSV vs. LFC (Result: 0-0)

                JR

SF       JC      DA       SW

JP      MS      BZ        FA
         
         CB       DK

(7) Chelsea vs. LFC (Result: 1-0)

               JR

SF       JC      DA       SW

JP      XA      MS        SG
         
         CB       DK

(8) LFC vs. Newcastle U (Result: 2-0)

               JR

SF       JC      DA       FA

SG      XA      MS        LG
         
         CB       DK

(9) LFC vs. Tottenham (Result: 3-0)

               JR

SF       SH      DA       JAR

SG      XA      MS        MG
         
         CB       DK

(10) LFC vs. Galatasaray (Result: 3-2)

               JR

SF       JC      DA       FA

JP      SG      XA        LG
         
         PC       DK


(11) Bolton vs. LFC (Result: 2-0)

               JR

SF       JC      SH       JAR

JP       XA      MS        SG
         
         CB       DK


(12) LFC vs. Blackburn (Result: 1-1)

               JR

SF       JC      SH       JAR

JP       SG      XA        FA
         
          CB       PC

STARTS TO DATE/POSSIBLE MATCHES

Reina 12/12
Finnan 11/11
Carragher 9/10
Hyypia 8/12
Agger 7/11
Riise 5/7
Aurelio 7/12
Warnock 3/11
Gerrard 10/12
Alonso 10/12
Sissoko 9/10
Garcia 5/12
Pennant 8/12
Gonzales 2/10(?)
Zenden 3/12
Bellamy 9/12
Kuyt 6/8
Crouch 5/12
Fowler 2/12(?)[/quote]
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Postby Bad Bob » Sun Oct 15, 2006 4:59 am

Well, today's match against Rovers--frustrating as it was--moved us closer to an understanding of our "best 11", IMO.  Barring injuries/suspensions or dramatic dips in form, I think we should be playing the following side in most premiership games:

                   Reina

Finnan   Carragher   Agger    Riise

Gerrard   Alonso   Sissoko     Garcia

             Bellamy  Kuyt

Subs: Dudek, Crouch, Pennant, Hyypia, Gonzales/Aurelio

As much as I love Sami I think we are looking at the Didi situation one year on: a tremendous servant giving way to a precocious talent.  Not the Sami won't still get plenty of games this season.  But, I think the time has come to stick to a CB pairing of Carra and Agger and reap the rewards of a settled defensive partnership.

For similar reasons, I think it's time to confirm Riise's place at LB.  Unlike some, I've been a fan of Aurelio's contribution so far but I'm not sure he's dovetailing with either his neighbouring CBs or with his LMs particularly well yet.  Besides, Riise's running, bottle and howitzer strikes are an aspect that the side needs at the moment.

In midfield, it has to be Stevie on the right with Momo and Alonso in the centre.  Pennant gave me fits today for the first time this season--he just seemed highly indecisive with the ball and his crossing and passing were shockingly poor at times.  He'll be a useful tactical substitution in many a game but he's not ready to fill Stevie's shoes yet.  Besides, I still contend Gerrard does more damage coming from the right than he does from the deep central positions.

The LM slot continues to be the problem spot and I've gone with Garcia despite some reservations about his defensive work.  His guile and skill on the ball have helped unlock defenses this campaign and so I like to see him involved.  Of course, if he's drifting out of too many games, I would advocate giving Gonzales a go to see what he can do over a run of games.  Alternatively, we could push Riise forward and bring Aurelio in at LB.  What won't work is Aurelio at LM, as we saw today--he becomes too anonymous.  Playing Riise ahead of him seemed to have promise, though.  Perhaps Big Mick will agree, this is the one area of the pitch where chopping and changing makes sense (as long as it doesn't involve Gerrard wide left).

Up front I've gone for the emerging Bellamy/Kuyt partnership.  Hopefully the Welshman will hit a purple patch now that he's broken his league duck.  Kuyt is going to be our main man up front and is one of the first names down on the teamsheet for me.  Crouch off the bench provides a different option if we need to change the game but he also get a number of starts over the course of the campaign.  As much as I love the guy, it's hard to find room for Robbie in the team at the moment but football can be a brutal game.

Now, don't get me wrong...I still believe in Rafa's rotation policy.  As Big Mick has so eloquently argued, though, this needs to be done delicately, as a way of freshening up an established side rather than making wholesale changes each week.  I think, with the international matches and extra-tricky away fixtures largely behind us for a while, we'll see more of a settled side.  In fact, if you look carefully at my chopping and changing update (above), you'll see it's already taking shape.  Let's hope we can start to build some positive momentum and get back into the thick of things at the top of the table.
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Postby account deleted by request » Sun Oct 15, 2006 5:53 am

While I agree with much of your analysis and indeed most of your team I dont agree with Garcia playing on the left.

1/ He leaves the fullback isolated because he cant/wont track back

2/He is much more of a threat playing in and around the "D" and his poor ball retention is less damaging there.

3/While I appreciate he is not a true winger if you are going to play someone wide they should be able to cross a ball.

4/ If Gerrard plays right midfield and Garcia left, we are back to having no width.

5/Fullbacks now know that they can show Garcia the outside and muscle him off the ball or into touch.

6/Attacking play by our fullbacks Riise/ Aurelio is stifled by the fear that having run 50 yds to receive the ball they will have to run 50yds back when Garcia loses possession.

While I agree Aurelio and Riise havent yet combined well as a left wing partnership I believe this to be our best option in the short term ie untill Kewell or Gonzales are ready. While they both have obvious limitations in the role, they do supply width and defensive support to each other. To be frank I feel this is a least worse option rather than a ideal option.

Considering we were gloating about our strength in depth only a short while ago, its strange that we are both now choosing to omit the very players who were expected to supply the crosses and width that we need.(Pennant and Gonzales)

On the bright side we actually scored from a corner! Bellamy is off the mark in the EPL , our undefeated home record still stands and ...........

Last but not least I would like to see the pairing of Kuyt and Fowler for a home game soon. Away from home I think their lack of real pace would be a problem ,but at home I think it could work well. Especially as teams like Blackburn defend so deep away from home that pace isnt the same threat.
Last edited by account deleted by request on Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby alessandromagno » Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:30 am

I think that with the players and options we have, it's almost impossible to pick a "best" eleven.
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